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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    Interesting that you believe you are right and the rest of us are wrong. Just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we don't understand.
    Except when you give animal rights extremists propaganda as reasons to be against slaughter, that are fabricated and/or non-sensical ones, then I have to assume you don't know any better, or you would not use those.

    The reason many are not posting is because slaughter is not a PC subject.
    Being against banning it brings those claiming the high ground out and that call others names, directly or indirectly and that is hard not to respond in kind to.

    Being against a ban on slaughter, by the way, is not always being for it.
    It is understanding what all is behind this push for a ban.
    It is a principle with some that we should not ban slaughter just because some animal rights extremists, as part of furthering their agendas, demand we do so.



  2. #242
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    Oh Look another Slaughter thread!
    To both sides, the definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting a different result!
    Death is not pretty, for any creature. Our job as Animal owners is to give our OWN animals a decent life and a respectful end. You cannot save them all.
    If we pulled all the threads over the past several years they would all say the same thing, It never gets anywhere. Mental masturbation!
    That is all.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  3. #243
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    What I don't get is why people strongly insist that there is no way to make horse slaughter more humane?

    When people attempt to discuss process improvements, strengthening laws, etc., it seems people stick their fingers in their ears and say "nahnahnah, can't hear you, can't be done, it was bad before, everyone involved is evil, etc."

    Years ago pet shelters killed in horrific ways and it was common for puppies & kittens to be drowned before they became another mouth to feed. But through massive education, and the following demands for improvement at least the vast majority are treated more humanely with better processes and oversight. Perfect? No, but better.

    Same with slaughter; it has changed, more education and improvements have been researched and made to the entire process. Perfect? No, but still large improvements. And the outcry when one place is bad is much more massive: look at how the treatment of downer cows hit the news.

    What changed that? Public knowledge, public education, instant media and public outcry demanding changes. Not perfect, no. But changes and improvement have been made, both in owner's education, and in animal management.

    Now we have the internet and thousands more with knowledge of the mechanics and the issues, yet people still insist that because it was one way before, it can never be different, never be better.
    I see no one stating that if it does pass there must be wording to require much more stingent regulations, oversight by humane organizations, etc., just "nahnahnah, I can't hear you, it can't be made better, nothing can possibly change, nahnahnah."


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    So what, there are laws and regulations and if those are not followed, there are consequences, no matter who is the one not following them, a slaughter plant or your local machine or printing plant, or a city's sewer system.

    You fix what is not working, you don't ban it all with the excuse that someone, somewhere, didn't to it right at some time, be it slaughter or any other.

    Why is that such a hard concept to understand?
    Did you read what you quoted?
    I could also ask you 'why is that such a hard concept to understand' that it was not the case that the plants causing local issues with water and waste were old plants in need of renovation?

    What is so hard to understand, that issues discovered by OSHA, USDA and other agencies clearly show that even new plants were not 'better'? While those same agencies failed to collect fines when regulations were enforced....



  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    Oh Look another Slaughter thread!
    To both sides, the definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting a different result!
    Death is not pretty, for any creature. Our job as Animal owners is to give our OWN animals a decent life and a respectful end. You cannot save them all.
    If we pulled all the threads over the past several years they would all say the same thing, It never gets anywhere. Mental masturbation!
    That is all.
    You are right, we have to keep repeating those important concepts about some topics, here slaughter, because there are always new people asking questions and thinking this thru.

    You can't believe how many will PM saying they are thankful we went thru this again, as it gave them such a broader perspective of what the issues surrounding slaughter and the larger one of animal rights extremists bring forth.

    While it may look like we are doing the same and getting the same results and that seems silly at first, I consider these threads a bit of a PSA.
    So many seem to come to this clueless of what all there is behind that pervasive animal rights extremist propaganda out there, including the one against slaughter.

    P.S. I hope those out there following the little game of drinking to my words will remember not to drink and post.



  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    What I don't get is why people strongly insist that there is no way to make horse slaughter more humane?

    When people attempt to discuss process improvements, strengthening laws, etc., it seems people stick their fingers in their ears and say "nahnahnah, can't hear you, can't be done, it was bad before, everyone involved is evil, etc."

    Years ago pet shelters killed in horrific ways and it was common for puppies & kittens to be drowned before they became another mouth to feed. But through massive education, and the following demands for improvement at least the vast majority are treated more humanely with better processes and oversight. Perfect? No, but better.

    Same with slaughter; it has changed, more education and improvements have been researched and made to the entire process. Perfect? No, but still large improvements. And the outcry when one place is bad is much more massive: look at how the treatment of downer cows hit the news.

    What changed that? Public knowledge, public education, instant media and public outcry demanding changes. Not perfect, no. But changes and improvement have been made, both in owner's education, and in animal management.

    Now we have the internet and thousands more with knowledge of the mechanics and the issues, yet people still insist that because it was one way before, it can never be different, never be better.
    I see no one stating that if it does pass there must be wording to require much more stingent regulations, oversight by humane organizations, etc., just "nahnahnah, I can't hear you, it can't be made better, nothing can possibly change, nahnahnah."
    And we have people insisting it was only the OLD plants that caused problems for the local communities.

    Why don't I think things will change if we start over re-opening plants here in the US?
    Because there is a very vocal pro-slaughter group who refuses to admit there was a problem in the first place.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post

    P.S. I hope those out there following the little game of drinking to my words will remember not to drink and post.
    any which way, it would be a win/win....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Did you read what you quoted?
    I could also ask you 'why is that such a hard concept to understand' that it was not the case that the plants causing local issues with water and waste were not old plants in need of renovation?

    What is so hard to understand, that issues discovered by OSHA, USDA and other agencies clearly show that even new plants were not 'better'?
    New here is relative, those plants have been closed for several years now.



  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    And we have people insisting it was only the OLD plants that caused problems for the local communities.

    Why don't I think things will change if we start over re-opening plants here in the US?
    Because there is a very vocal pro-slaughter group who refuses to admit there was a problem in the first place.
    No, no we were talking about an ancient plant in Dallas when the talk was of obsolete systems that kept breaking down.

    Hard to keep all the stories straight, is it.



  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    No, no we were talking about an ancient plant in Dallas when the talk was of obsolete systems that kept breaking down.

    Hard to keep all the stories straight, is it.
    And I pointed out that a newer plant in DeKalb Ill also had issues, so the issues were clearly not just that one plant or due to, as you suggested, the plant being old.

    Yes clearly you are having trouble keeping your story straight. Go back and read what you wrote:

    Originally Posted by Bluey
    Everything we do has consequences, no one is denying that.
    BUT, you are not being honest there, bringing the case of one plant that had a partially malfunctioning system to process water before being discharged, a plant that was where real estate was becoming pricey, or would if they could run industrial business out of there, like, horror, a slaughter plant.

    I agree, the plant was old and needed to go somewhere else and they knew that and were trying their best to run with what they had.

    Any other time, other place, they would have modernized, get their system replaced and stayed in business.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    What I don't get is why people strongly insist that there is no way to make horse slaughter more humane?

    When people attempt to discuss process improvements, strengthening laws, etc., it seems people stick their fingers in their ears and say "nahnahnah, can't hear you, can't be done, it was bad before, everyone involved is evil, etc."

    Years ago pet shelters killed in horrific ways and it was common for puppies & kittens to be drowned before they became another mouth to feed. But through massive education, and the following demands for improvement at least the vast majority are treated more humanely with better processes and oversight. Perfect? No, but better.

    Same with slaughter; it has changed, more education and improvements have been researched and made to the entire process. Perfect? No, but still large improvements. And the outcry when one place is bad is much more massive: look at how the treatment of downer cows hit the news.

    What changed that? Public knowledge, public education, instant media and public outcry demanding changes. Not perfect, no. But changes and improvement have been made, both in owner's education, and in animal management.

    Now we have the internet and thousands more with knowledge of the mechanics and the issues, yet people still insist that because it was one way before, it can never be different, never be better.
    I see no one stating that if it does pass there must be wording to require much more stingent regulations, oversight by humane organizations, etc., just "nahnahnah, I can't hear you, it can't be made better, nothing can possibly change, nahnahnah."
    Here is an article just about this, sorry it is several pages long:

    http://www.cattlenetwork.com/cattle-...193907851.html


    Animal management is an ongoing learning process.
    As circumstances change, so do what works and doesn't, for many more reasons that is obvious.
    Just think on how many used to manage horses years ago, how they trained and how much more we know today.



  12. #252
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    I'm still waiting for proof that the new plants have addressed some of the issues. or are these new plants just another cattle facility retro-fitted (NOT) for horses. Still waiting for proof that enforcement of regulations can be accomplished. And last but not least, where the money going to come from for enforcement and inspection.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    I'm still waiting for proof that the new plants have addressed some of the issues. or are these new plants just another cattle facility retro-fitted (NOT) for horses. Still waiting for proof that enforcement of regulations can be accomplished. And last but not least, where the money going to come from for enforcement and inspection.
    then why, instead of sitting there like the princess on the pea, won't you get involved.

    But you do expect the world to do your work for you....
    You want to know, you go find out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    And I pointed out that a newer plant in DeKalb Ill also had issues, so the issues were clearly not just that one plant or due to, as you suggested, the plant being old.

    Yes clearly you are having trouble keeping your story straight. Go back and read what you wrote:

    Originally Posted by Bluey
    Everything we do has consequences, no one is denying that.
    BUT, you are not being honest there, bringing the case of one plant that had a partially malfunctioning system to process water before being discharged, a plant that was where real estate was becoming pricey, or would if they could run industrial business out of there, like, horror, a slaughter plant.

    I agree, the plant was old and needed to go somewhere else and they knew that and were trying their best to run with what they had.

    Any other time, other place, they would have modernized, get their system replaced and stayed in business.
    I was still talking about the one plant I knew about and what the managers were saying.

    I made it clear that I don't know about other plants and why they did what they did or didn't.

    I will still say, that doesn't mean the next plant won't be up to regulations, just because some were not, just like our local old sewer treatment plant, once they finish the new one, we should not assume it won't be working right, because someone, somewhere has a new one that is not quite working right.

    Besides the point here to bring what all plants doing anything that plants do have to do with banning slaughter because some animal rights extremists are making millions of the debate and the free publicity that brings them.



  15. #255
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    Sunridge, hope you're not holding your breath, cause that can only end badly for you.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    And we have people insisting it was only the OLD plants that caused problems for the local communities.

    Why don't I think things will change if we start over re-opening plants here in the US?
    Because there is a very vocal pro-slaughter group who refuses to admit there was a problem in the first place.
    So because there is a vocal "other side", that is a reason not to loudly insist on improvements?
    So much better to only try to prevent it happening (and in this economy, voting down anything that might create jobs is unlikely) than to have a contingency of demanding improvements if it does pass?

    Color me confused.



  17. #257
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    And who is going to buy the meat. That's the biggest question right now. Who will buy from an American horse slaughter house?

    I only buy beef from my neighbor (and I can see how his cattle are farmed) or from a known beef producer. Poultry, I stick with no antibiotics, no hormones. Same for pork, I don't want the 15% added liquid and flavorings, thank you very much. My tofu is non GMO soy, so is the soymilk.

    I wouldn't buy it, even if I liked the taste of horse.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    I was still talking about the one plant I knew about and what the managers were saying.

    I made it clear that I don't know about other plants and why they did what they did or didn't.
    Clearly you weren't... and didn't

    Originally Posted by Bluey
    Everything we do has consequences, no one is denying that.
    BUT, you are not being honest there, bringing the case of one plant that had a partially malfunctioning system to process water before being discharged, a plant that was where real estate was becoming pricey, or would if they could run industrial business out of there, like, horror, a slaughter plant.

    I agree, the plant was old and needed to go somewhere else and they knew that and were trying their best to run with what they had.

    Any other time, other place, they would have modernized, get their system replaced and stayed in business.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    I will still say, that doesn't mean the next plant won't be up to regulations, just because some were not, just like our local old sewer treatment plant, once they finish the new one, we should not assume it won't be working right, because someone, somewhere has a new one that is not quite working right.

    Besides the point here to bring what all plants doing anything that plants do have to do with banning slaughter because some animal rights extremists are making millions of the debate and the free publicity that brings them.
    I have no idea what that last sentence is supposed to mean...


    The next plant might work better... and yet history shows us that new plants do not work any better, are not any better neighbors, and regulations do not get enforced, and fines do not [STILL] get collected...


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    So because there is a vocal "other side", that is a reason not to loudly insist on improvements?
    So much better to only try to prevent it happening (and in this economy, voting down anything that might create jobs is unlikely) than to have a contingency of demanding improvements if it does pass?

    Color me confused.
    We demanded improvements before the plants closed and nothing got done. Look into what the town around Beltex, Cavel and Dallas Crown went through, YEARS of complaining and trying to get things improved and lawsuits and injunctions. YEARS.
    DeKalb supposedly GOT a new improved plant... and yet the new Cavle was as bad...

    LOL yes jobs! The plants will create JOBS! Seriously?
    Even those few jobs the plants create... with what OSHA has said about those plants, do YOU want to work there? Do you think anyone should?


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  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    And who is going to buy the meat. That's the biggest question right now. Who will buy from an American horse slaughter house?
    is that your problem?
    if they made widgets, does it matter?
    They sold their meat before, they are selling the American horses through plants in Mexico and Canada right now....
    If they turned all of them into jello whole sale...and Mello Yello food color...
    does it really matter? Is it any of your business?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



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