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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    The horses being shipped to slaughter ALL have owners. Those owners are not all using slaughter because they have no other options. There are even KB's that pose as a "family man" that brings a kid with to answer "free to good home ads", and they will lie and say they want a horse for junior. We have a guy here in El paso that regularly advertises that way on CL. He then immediately sells to slaughter. Some people run their horse thru the auction not knowing that KB's are there. At our local auction, the auctioneer hides the identity of the buyer so people won't know they are going to slaughter. I went with a local trainer about 5 yrs ago, and she ran a pony thru and I had to tell her to put a reserve, because she hadn't done so. She was unaware that KB's were there bidding.
    Very few, if any of those using slaughter have no other options. They are either having the horses bought by deception, or unknowingly selling at an auction KB's attend, or they knowingly sell, and don't care. Some are just greedy and want 50-100.00 rather than to shoot and bury, compost, have rendered or removed.
    And again, I'm not saying that every one of the 100,000/year going to slaughter are going to be in dire straights.

    But it is strange to me that the anti-slaughter stance is often "well, most of them will be okay" when it comes to discussing the future of the horses that will be saved from slaughter,
    yet when told that "most" going to slaughter are "okay", (as in not injured, hung and bled alive), the cry is "One is too many!!!!!!! Not a single one should have to suffer!!!!!!"

    Why is one (or a few thousand) suffering okay when it's not by slaughter, but one (or a few thousand) is an acceptable margin when it comes to asking about a decent plan for the humane care for the ones saved?

    All I am told is "they have owners, that's their problem, those laws about animal cruelty that we complain aren't working when it comes to shipping to slaughter will miraculously work perfectly when it comes to those that now have no decent place to go".

    I spent quite a bit of the 90's and early 2000's going to quite a few auctions every weekend in CO, picking up horses to resale. That very vast majority of people knew that their horses were at risk when they brought them. I repeatedly was hugged and thanked for buying their horse, with statements of "oh,I was so afraid Art/Charlie (KBs) was going to outbid you!" However, only one person ever cared what I was going to do with them.

    So these owners sat right there and watched the bidding, and made no move to no-sale them (some of these people brought multiple horses, and some of them did go to the KBs, so proof they would not have stopped the bidding if it was obvious who was buying). And if you are at an auction for more than a few minutes, it's pretty obvious who the KBs are.

    And the ones that drop them off and have a check mailed?
    Sorry, that's no different than dropping your dog at the kill shelter: you are avoiding reality so you can tell yourself "Oh, I'm SURE my unbroke, untrained cribber (or insert "dog" for the shelter) got a great home with a little girl".

    And yes, some people do get those horses under false pretenses, usually the free ones so they have even less expense to offset profit. I have yet to hear of a KB buying a horse under false pretenses for more than the going auction rate (that would be quite stupid, but it's possible).

    As I have said (repeatedly), I do not believe every horse that is "saved" if slaughter is stopped is going to find itself in dire straights, but I also don't see how that many more horses are all going to be okay. And when I ask what plans are in place for them, it is always a "it won't be a problem, those owners will do the right thing" or "well, that's what those cruelty laws (the ones you say can't work for the slaughter system) are for." I have NEVER heard anyone say "well, we are going to XXX, YYY and if we have to ZZZ."

    What happened to the rallying cry "ONE IS TOO MANY"? Why does that only apply to the ones being slaughtered?


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  2. #502
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    I was also going to auctions when the plants were closed in the US, and was there for the insistant cries of
    "Oh, no one will ship out of the country, it won't be cost-effective", "We ended the slaughter of US horses, yayayayay!!!!!"

    When questioned then, there was no way horses would be suffering longer trips, or substandard care while the KBs were gathering enough for a larger load, remember that? It was a done deal, the horses were better off.

    Strangely, there was no drop off in auction traffic, just a drop in prices (which benefited me and my re-sales, yay!)

    So why should I believe the cries of "It will be fine for all those horses, they will okay", when I've seen what happened last time there was no forethought?

    No one bothered to listen to those of us that pointed out that it would be better to beef up other laws (transport, feedlot care standards) and the penalties for those infractions first; there was no need, according to the vocal anti-slaughter crowd.

    And here we are again, and still no need to put a plan in place, just adament comments of
    "Oh, they will be better, no need to think ahead to the possibilities, we will prevent slaughter again, yayayayayayay."

    Do you really believe the horses are better off right now? Or is it just that because it's not in your backyard that it can be ignored?


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  3. #503
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    And there we have it, THE AGENDA:

    Skye McNiel, R-Bristow, said she proposed House Bill 1999 to help the horse livestock economy and open up an outlet for people to dispose of their horses. Critics, however, call it a conflict of interest meant to boost finances at her grandparent's horse auction, the largest in the state.


    The author of a bill that would legalize horse slaughter in Oklahoma agreed it could mean monetary gain for the livestock auction house owned by her grandparents and managed by her family.



    Rep. Skye McNiel said that gain would be shared equally by all the state's horse auctioneers and is not substantial compared to the financial gain to the state's horse owners who are seeking an avenue to dispose of animals that have lost their use.

    The Bristow Republican, whose grandparents opened Mid America Stockyards in Bristow more than 40 years ago, said she proposed House Bill 1999 because she saw a problem firsthand and decided to help solve it.

    “It's no different from an attorney running a tort reform bill or a pharmacist running a pharmacy bill,” McNiel, 34, said. “I'm from rural Oklahoma and I run rural legislation. I mean, who better to understand policy than somebody who lives it every day?”

    Critics of the legislation complain that, among other things, the bill presents a conflict of interest for its author. An advocacy group called Wild Horse Observers Association filed a complaint last month with the Oklahoma Ethics Commission for that reason.

    Law has exemption

    But a state law that prohibits legislators from introducing bills that would benefit their immediate family makes an exception for legislation that “could reasonably be foreseen to accrue to all other members of the profession.”

    Though Mid America could see commissions on horses sold at its biweekly auctions double or even triple should the bill become law, so too would the 11 other businesses licensed by the state to auction horses.

    Patience O'Dowd, founder of the Wild Horse Observers Association, said she believes McNiel, in introducing the legislation, blatantly violated the intent of the ethics law.

    “If it's a good bill, then perhaps another legislator should bring it,” said O'Dowd, who lives in Placitas, N.M. “Usually you don't want to even have the appearance of having an issue. If they don't want to be squeaky clean, then maybe they shouldn't be in that office.”

    Closures hurt prices

    The last domestic horse slaughter house closed in 2007, a year after federal inspections of such facilities ended. The market since has moved to neighboring countries, Mexico and Canada.

    More than 18,000 horses were shipped from Oklahoma to Mexico for slaughter last year, according to the Oklahoma Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry.

    Terry Crawford, legion executive officer for the Oklahoma Livestock Marketing Association, said the slaughter house closures meant higher freight costs to ship horses abroad.

    Prices for horses sold at Oklahoma auctions subsequently were reduced to 30 cents per pound from as high as a dollar per pound previously, Crawford said.

    Effect on auctions

    Sloan Varner, McNiel's brother and an auctioneer at Mid America, the largest horse auction in the state, estimated as many as two-thirds of the 5,000 horses sold there in a typical year are sent to slaughter houses.

    But the family has no way of knowing for sure what happens to the horses they sell, Varner said.

    “It's not our business what they do with them,” he said. “All of the guys that buy slaughter horses also buy riding horses, and sometimes they buy horses intended for slaughter that they go out and fool with and sell back to somebody who intends to ride.”

    Varner said a horse sold at Mid America today fetches about 25 cents per pound — or about $250 for an average 1,000-pound horse — compared to about 80 cents per pound before the 2007 slaughter house closures.

    The company collects a 6 percent commission on each horse sold, he said.

    If 5,000 horses are auctioned in a year, weighing an average of 1,000 pounds, Mid America could expect to collect about $75,000 in annual commissions on horse sales.


    Were prices to increase under McNiel's legislation to pre-2007 days, the company could make as much as $240,000 commission on horse sales in a year's time.

    If a slaughter house opened in Oklahoma, those numbers likely would be substantially higher.

    Legislator's interest

    McNiel said neither she nor her husband has any ownership stake in Mid America, nor do they intend to.

    She said she worked full-time at the auction house until she was about six months' pregnant with her oldest daughter, now 10, but now only checks in horses during auctions every other Monday night and serves food in the cafeteria on Fridays.

    McNiel said her experiences in livestock auctioning give her a firsthand understanding of the issues faced by those who work in the industry.

    “I see the problem of the abused, abandoned, starved horses, and I see what it does when our sheriff has to pick up those horses and quarantine for 30 and 60 days — it's taxpayer dollars,” she said.

    “And I see when people have nowhere to go with their horses but just to turn them out or cut fences and put them into somebody else's pastures. I understand this issue maybe more than anybody else.”

    http://newsok.com/oklahoma-horse-sla...766611/?page=1

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  4. #504
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    Oh No!!! THE AGENDA

    Imagine...an agenda that has a solution other than...ah...someone else will look after the excess horses..I am sure of it...WELL.. they haven't and YOU and YOUR Buddies..have NO solution..other than
    Green grassy slopes with Bamby and Thumper
    Their agenda is livestock and equine based and is a piece of the solution puzzle.

    You..on the other hand..have offered NO SOLUTION. But YOU also have

    AN AGENDA...and that is do nothing...but think you are saving the horses..


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  5. #505
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    What are you complaining about - you should be happy.
    Somehow tho I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Oh No!!! THE AGENDA

    Imagine...an agenda that has a solution other than...ah...someone else will look after the excess horses..I am sure of it...WELL.. they haven't and YOU and YOUR Buddies..have NO solution..other than
    Green grassy slopes with Bamby and Thumper
    Their agenda is livestock and equine based and is a piece of the solution puzzle.

    You..on the other hand..have offered NO SOLUTION. But YOU also have

    AN AGENDA...and that is do nothing...but think you are saving the horses..



  6. #506
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    Go read Alagirl's polls Fairfax. Exactly who is sending their horses to slaughter? Doesn't look like it's COTH.

    Conservatives are always talking about personal responsibility. If people can't afford horses, why do they have them?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post

    Varner said a horse sold at Mid America today fetches about 25 cents per pound — or about $250 for an average 1,000-pound horse — compared to about 80 cents per pound before the 2007 slaughter house closures.

    The company collects a 6 percent commission on each horse sold, he said.

    If 5,000 horses are auctioned in a year, weighing an average of 1,000 pounds, Mid America could expect to collect about $75,000 in annual commissions on horse sales.


    Were prices to increase under McNiel's legislation to pre-2007 days, the company could make as much as $240,000 commission on horse sales in a year's time.

    If a slaughter house opened in Oklahoma, those numbers likely would be substantially higher.
    I dunno' about that, why increase what you pay for it [the raw materials so to speak] if you don't have to, which why would you have to?
    The shortened [perhaps] travel= less gas= more profit.
    Why would you then pay more for the horses= less profit?


    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    She said she worked full-time at the auction house until she was about six months' pregnant with her oldest daughter, now 10, but now only checks in horses during auctions every other Monday night and serves food in the cafeteria on Fridays.
    So they probably make more than those commissions on sales through their auction in food sales.... but noooo, there's no agenda there!

    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    “I see the problem of the abused, abandoned, starved horses, and I see what it does when our sheriff has to pick up those horses and quarantine for 30 and 60 days — it's taxpayer dollars,” she said.
    I wonder who she thinks will pay for inspections at the plants, and for enforcement of regulations on the slaughter industry, incl on our highways, at sales, and at the plants?

    And if she is seeing the problem of abused, abandoned, starved horses... while many are still shipping to slaughter right from her own sale in her own town/county... how does she think slaughter is a solution to that abuse, abandonment, starving? Cause horses are still shipping to slaughter from her sale... with that option, the argument goes, there shouldn't be any abuse, abandonment, or starving.
    It's a real head scratcher, for sure.


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  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    And if she is seeing the problem of abused, abandoned, starved horses... while many are still shipping to slaughter right from her own sale in her own town/county... how does she think slaughter is a solution to that abuse, abandonment, starving? Cause horses are still shipping to slaughter from her sale... with that option, the argument goes, there shouldn't be any abuse, abandonment, or starving.
    It's a real head scratcher, for sure.
    Excellent point, AF. It's a shame no one has challenged her with that thought.

    She is of the same ilk as Slaughter Sue and David D. They are successfully convincing lawmakers that slaughter is needed for all the starving, abandoned, lame and old horses who are suffering and that once slaughter begins, all of those issues will majikly go away and all horses will have a humane, peaceful euthanasia at the plant.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
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  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptownevt View Post
    A 30 month study of the horse slaughter industry from 2007 to 2009. http://animalsangels.org/images/stor...hort_paper.pdf

    How can anyone look at these reports and see the pictures and yes, the facts, of how these horses are abused and/or neglected and defend this niche industry? One which by the way rarely hires legal workers, rarely if ever pays taxes or fines, and has large negative impacts on the economies and environments of the towns that subsequently chased them out of town on a rail?

    Previously mentioned was how much bute residue is harmful to humans? They don't know because DUH, they would have to subject human subjects to bute ingestion, something which was deemed too dangerous way back when bute was a human medicine and ended up banned for humans. So no, that study will probably NOT be forthcoming anytime soon!

    At the time and probably in MOST cases now, small animals and horses do not live long enough to end up with long term side effects from bute. Although it certainly SEEMS as though cancer is on the rise in horses and pets as they are living longer, I don't have any numbers. Now that is a study you could probably do at least a survey/case review on in horses and dogs.

    Someone mentioned protein starvation. That is actually when you have an ALL protein diet and no fat. You can eat lean meat all day long and still starve (as many people did on their way west, they ended up eating their animals but they were so skinny from the trek they may as well have not bothered!). I think complex carbs will help but I don't know how much. You still need some fat.
    Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

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  10. #510
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    Of course the NM plant is nothing but a cattle plant that will be (isn't even yet) re-fitted for horses. How they do that I don't know because not much ever appears to change in these old plants! I suspect any OK plant will also be an ex beef plant.
    Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

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  11. #511
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    Only a select few got 80 cents a pound before the US slaughter house closures. The rest got 25-50 cents a pound on average.
    Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

    Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.


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  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Ck your numbers...I think it's about 900,000 horses that die each yr. 10% of them are slaughtered. There are about 9 million horses in US. Of that 1% are slaughtered.
    I know what you meant, but there was an extra zero in there.
    Yeah thanks. Math, never my strong suit
    Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

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  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    If there are so many who will be willing to absorb..excess horses...please tell EVERY RESCUE in United States. They are in DIRE need of adoptions.

    DEFHR had a strict program that never allowed any horse to be adopted outside of 100 miles of them. Now they are shipping horses to Texas and hoping they can find homes for them.

    You have to remember that most "rescues" are not dealing with what most people want: gentle, well broke riding and/or show horses for people who are not up to training a greenie or wanting to deal with a hot or spooky horse. Most of the ones to pick from are already a hard sell; untrained, soundness issues, mental issues sometimes, physical issues, too old, too young, too big, too small. And let's say it, too ugly! PLUS the adoption contracts that may be too restrictive for some people to even want to deal with. That can be a big sticking point there. Comparing horses for adoption and horses for sale is apples and oranges.
    Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

    Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.


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  14. #514
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    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhenylbutazoneCached

    Opinions are conflicting regarding the carcinogenicity of phenylbutazone in animals; no evidence indicates it causes cancer in humans at therapeutic doses.


    www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp115-c1.pdf - United StatesYou File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View


    Cancer. There is no evidence that phenol bute causes cancer in humans. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) and the EPA



  15. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by summerhorse View Post
    Only a select few got 80 cents a pound before the US slaughter house closures. The rest got 25-50 cents a pound on average.
    The average for all plants reported by the USDA received $ .56 per pound EXCLUDING skin, hooves and rendering bones. Many times those were shipped to other processing plants so their value was not calculated iat the plant ..This is the same with cattle.. When skin etc is factored in the price does come closer to 80 cents per pound

    The chutes are the major concern when revamping a plant. The process with the hoist, trolley and troughs remains the same.

    The cost is not large to revamp the chute and delivery system

    And still...no solution...rescues are crying UNCLE...DEFHR has shipped horses to Texas from Maryland and had adopted some out in direct violation of their mandate (according to them). Too many horses...expensive feed...expensive board....expensive training...THAT is what the rescues claim.

    Perhaps these ugly, unadoptable horses should be disposed of thru slaughter..there are still enough horses for sale or give away that are very sound. On the Amish thread a lady stated a broke to death and trained horse was euthanized due to NO buyers...didn't sound like they wanted much money for the horse.

    The anti-slaughter recycle the old info from 2007 and prior..and readers have to admit...IF there is a solution...the anti slaughter groups have had 6 years to present them and implement them.

    If there was a viable alternative this would not be an issue....there isn't and now politicians realize they were "had" ...



  16. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhenylbutazoneCached

    Opinions are conflicting regarding the carcinogenicity of phenylbutazone in animals; no evidence indicates it causes cancer in humans at therapeutic doses.


    www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp115-c1.pdf - United StatesYou File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View


    Cancer. There is no evidence that phenol bute causes cancer in humans. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) and the EPA
    Your Wikipedia googling skills are totally moot on this point. The law needs to be followed and the law states that bute (& other products) are not to be fed to animals intended for human consumption. You can continue to play dumb on this issue but there not going to be any studies authorized to determine threshold levels of bute that are safe for human consumption. The FDA pulled the drug for humans and the FDA does not go back once that is done, therefore no studies allowed to be conducted with bute and humans.

    As you are so fond of saying, there are already rules and regulations in place and those need to be followed and enforced. The human food chain needs to be kept clean and having different standards for beef and pork critters than for cheval critters is going to be contested by many people who do not even know what the initials RARA stands for.
    Last edited by ADM7040; Mar. 21, 2013 at 08:10 AM. Reason: spelling - thanks Bluey!
    Annabelle Mayr, Arcadia Farm
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  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADM7040 View Post
    Your Wikipedia googling skills are totally mute on this point. The law needs to be followed and the law states that bute (& other products) are not to be fed to animals intended for human consumption. You can continue to play dumb on this issue but there not going to be any studies authorized to determine threshold levels of bute that are safe for human consumption. The FDA pulled the drug for humans and the FDA does not go back once that is done, therefore no studies allowed to be conducted with bute and humans.

    As you are so fond of saying, there are already rules and regulations in place and those need to be followed and enforced. The human food chain needs to be kept clean and having different standards for beef and pork critters than for cheval critters is going to be contested by many people who do not even know what the initials RARA stands for.

    That is moot, I think you mean, but I will say, antis spent PAGES harping on bute and when someone brings some sense to that question, again puts that in perspective, as we have tried to do now for pages also, now it is moot?

    I heard the plant in NM is three weeks from opening, all ready, retooled and with contracts for the meat on hand, just waiting on, guess what, USDA inspection/inspectors.
    That being one of five doing so right now.

    Personally, I wish they didn't even had tried to open plants, as it is just one more grandstanding opportunity for animal rights extremist and their followers and the riches that brings from the free publicity.

    The horses?
    All but forgotten by those animal rights extremists, horses being just the prop for the current donation bonanza horse slaughter can be for them, by whipping the gullible into opening their wallets for the cause of the moment, here "Fight against horse slaughter!".



  18. #518
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    [QUOTE=Bluey;6895622]That is moot, I think you mean, but I will say, antis spent PAGES harping on bute and when someone brings some sense to that question, again puts that in perspective, as we have tried to do now for pages also, now it is moot?

    QUOTE]

    Yes, I did mean moot, thank you for that correction and I will edit.

    No, Fairfax did not bring sense to this argument but he did bring an opinion to this argument that you agree with, therefore you believe it makes sense. But there is no sense in arguing that bute is not an issue for animals in the food chain because the FDA, the EU and the CFIA all state that it is an issue. I don't think even your conspiracy theories can go so far as to say that the RARAs infiltrated these agencies simply to get these bogus regulations. The rules and regulations are already in place for how to ensure the best possible odds of keeping the human food chain safe and the rules and regulations need to be followed and enforced.

    So, I ask again, why should cheval critters be subject to lesser regulation than beef or pork critters? And why do you think the general public, who have absolutey no ties to RARAs, should be willing to compromise on the potential safety of cheval vs beef or pork? I've asked these questions several times before on this and other threads and no pro-horse-slaughter advocate has even attempted to explain why it is ok to subject cheval to less regulation than pork or beef.
    Annabelle Mayr, Arcadia Farm
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  19. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    That is moot, I think you mean, but I will say, antis spent PAGES harping on bute and when someone brings some sense to that question, again puts that in perspective, as we have tried to do now for pages also, now it is moot?

    I heard the plant in NM is three weeks from opening, all ready, retooled and with contracts for the meat on hand, just waiting on, guess what, USDA inspection/inspectors.
    That being one of five doing so right now.

    Personally, I wish they didn't even had tried to open plants, as it is just one more grandstanding opportunity for animal rights extremist and their followers and the riches that brings from the free publicity.

    The horses?
    All but forgotten by those animal rights extremists, horses being just the prop for the current donation bonanza horse slaughter can be for them, by whipping the gullible into opening their wallets for the cause of the moment, here "Fight against horse slaughter!".
    Did you even read Alagirl's ridiculous poll threads? Not many animal rights extremists here Bluey, even though you love to throw those words around.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  20. #520
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    Med residue isn't a problem for the EU? Really?

    "by virtue of Commission decision 2011/163/EU the US is not authorized to export horsemeat to the EU."

    The decision was made in 2011, when the USDA neglected to comply with new regulations requiring submittal of a drug residue control program. Approval of such an application requires extensive review as well as audits and can take up to several years to complete.


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    By deltawave in forum Eventing
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: Feb. 5, 2010, 02:45 PM

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