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  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    And no I am not going to offer any 'solutions' for what to do with the 100,000 horses that won't be slaughtered.
    First of all I know where all animals *I* am responsible for are, I did not create this problem.

    Secondly, there won't be 100,000 horses wandering looking for homes, because that's the annual rate of slaughter. There will be maybe 1/50th-ish of that perhaps... and maybe less as I doubt that the closing of the borders will slam shut without warning.
    The rest of the horses at the sales that week? There are other buyers at sales first of all, and if no one buys the horse guess what? The owner that brought it to the sale can take it home and figure something else out. Genius, I know!
    What problem?
    So no solutions? Just end it, not my problem. That sure solves it, doesn't it?

    And at 100,000 horses per year that works out to over 8,000 per month now heading out of the country (or 1,000,000 a decade!) to slaughter.

    So if 1/2 of the people have the resources to continue caring for their horses, that's only 50,000 a year left, or 4,000 a month that need a place to go.

    If 1/2 are sold to other buyers (have you read the posts about people with nice, well-trained horses that can't get them sold? How about the giveaways section or the comments on all the Craigslist ads giving horses away?),
    Now we are down to 25,000/year or 2,000/ month (and remember next month there will be another 2,000!) that still need homes.

    Yep, but no one feels the need to find a solution that will ensure the horses are cared for or put down, not your problem.

    And putting them down at the reasonable euthanasia rate of $100 each (good luck finding that, not to mention the costs of burying/disposal) that's only $200,000/month to put them down (and remember, there will be more next month!). But that's okay, I'm sure those rescues can handle it, it's not your problem, after all.


    As far as the last bolded part, how well is that working for dogs and cats? Can't find them a new home, too bad, just keep them.....yep, because the person willing to sell or give a horse to a KB is going to be concerned about continuing to feed and shelter them, just like all those smaller, cheaper pet owners are, and why those pet shelters are empty.

    I suppose those auctioners can just call the owners up to come get them, and when they don't? What then? Call the police? Call animal control? And when the owner says they can't feed them what then? Say "too bad, take them home to starve"?

    But that's okay, you're not responsible, just end slaughter with no responsibility for anything, and when the after effects set in shake your head, walk away, and say "Gee, that sucks for them"?

    Seriously folks, find a reasonable solution and the funds to implement it and I'll be all for it and be posting on these threads "But we can....!!!!!!" constantly!
    Last edited by MoonoverMississippi; Mar. 5, 2013 at 09:26 PM. Reason: adding


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  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    well, there is much that could be made with dead cats and dogs.
    so instead of importing junk from China, where they breed the critters for the fur, yes, those dead animals could serve some purpose.

    But eating them?
    Are you crazy?! Do you know what's in pet food?!!!
    No not crazy.. just making a point.. and yes pet food is scary



  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post

    Seriously folks, find a reasonable solution and the funds to implement it and I'll be all for it and be posting on these threads "But we can....!!!!!!" constantly!
    I've said almost the same thing to the pro-slaughter peeps over and over and over... show us good faith that you DO intend to make the industry humane... and enforce regulations.
    Show us you mean it by collecting long, long overdue fines for the popsicle horses Carper owes for, collect from Charlie Carter and the others... and show us you mean it.
    Give us actual info we can read [not opinion, not 'I knew a guy who knew a guy who once said...'] that shows us how it will be better....
    The only thing you respond with is insults, name calling, painting everyone who has any valid concern with the 'RaRa' brush... and more opinion and 'experience' that is unverifiable.

    The lip service, 'well do better, promise' doesn't cut it, because of what we saw in Kaufman Texas and DeKalb Ill and what we see in Canada at Fort MacLeod and the other lots and plants.
    And now what we see the lack of interest of playing above board with horsemeat slipped into products labeled 'beef' which turns out to containing Bute [There is a 0 tolerance for bute, so that gobbledegook protest of 'Bute isn't so bad!' doesn't fly...]

    Again, ya'll have made me do more research and look into how things are in Canada, and how things were in the states... made me look into what a job in a slaughter plant offers the employee [funny you insist it will create jobs for Americans then keep mentioning how all the CAnadian plants employ Somalians... uh.... ]...

    'Fairfax
    Angela...I am well aware of Brooks Alberta. It is now home to the largest Somalian population in Canada..they work at the plant'

    Interesting, if they're such great jobs how come Canadians don't work them?

    ... and your lack of data or real answers to the concerns and the research I've done has convinced me even more that the interest in opening new plants and the promises of doing it better are hollow and motivated by the almighty dollar.

    Keep ignoring that the EU has issued an edict requiring passports in July 2013... keep holding out hope that the Asian market is too foolish to, after hearing all they are hearing about Bute in the horsemeat in Europe where those horses were supposed to be 'passport only' horses... and the unreliability of the EID to insure drug laden meat is detected, also adopt a no bute [plus the long list of other, common drugs on the 'no-no list'] policy themselves.
    Good luck with that.

    In effect the industry by not addressing all these issues and concerns is committing suicide.

    If you insist that I am in denial about what will happen when those 100,000 horses are roaming our city streets, you cant deny that you too are in denial about the fact that the inability of the industry to step up and solve their own problems [drugs, humane treatment] is why this industry has the bad rep it has.


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  4. #444
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    All that huffing and puffing about how slaughter is conducted and if and how it affects communities, etc. is, I will repeat, something we handle thru regulations and supervision.

    Those that want to ban slaughter, just following animal rights extremist ideas of how this world should run and wanting to impose those on all, well, sorry, that is a high level of crazy.
    Why? Because humans are also animals, also part of this world and yes, we eat animals too, we are not herbivores.
    We have evolved thru millennia to eat animals, just as some other animals have eaten humans.
    Thru domesticating animals we have found a better, more secure way to insure we have animals to use, the many uses we make of them, including eating them, as we evolved doing.
    We have learned better and better ways to do so and that includes taking the best care we know of them thru any we do with them and that is an ongoing process also.

    Why, tell me, should we now, on the whim of some crazy idea, renege on that and try to change humans to something we are not, because someone, somewhere decided that is how ALL now should live?

    Why ban horse slaughter, because someone, somewhere is not following regulations?
    Why ban police, because some policemen beat people?
    Why ban hospitals, because someone doesn't wash their hands?
    Why ban religion, because someone abuses kids?
    Why ban any one industry, textile, chemical, lumber, you name it, because someone is not following regulations?

    My point, you can bring this or that case where someone didn't follow regulations or abused whatever and that still won't even come close to make sense, on those grounds, to demand we ban anything.

    Remember, there is a very important difference in animal rights, no more animals used by humans ever, ban this now, that later the ultimate goal and animal welfare, lets do what we do the best we can and where we find our processes missing, be it in a trainer's barn, a rescue's pastures or slaughter, lets work to make what we do better, not demand we quit using animals, see, someone may abuse them.
    That is very much senseless.



  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    The only thing you respond with is insults, name calling, painting everyone who has any valid concern with the 'RaRa' brush... and more opinion and 'experience' that is unverifiable.
    Please, show me where I have called anyone an insulting name, or a RARA? Or is that painting me with the same brush, too?



  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post


    As far as the last bolded part, how well is that working for dogs and cats? Can't find them a new home, too bad, just keep them.....yep, because the person willing to sell or give a horse to a KB is going to be concerned about continuing to feed and shelter them, just like all those smaller, cheaper pet owners are, and why those pet shelters are empty.

    I suppose those auctioners can just call the owners up to come get them, and when they don't? What then? Call the police? Call animal control? And when the owner says they can't feed them what then? Say "too bad, take them home to starve"?
    All that huffing and puffing about how neglect/abuse will happen... I will repeat, that's something we handle thru regulations, enforcement, and supervision.


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  7. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    Please, show me where I have called anyone an insulting name, or a RARA? Or is that painting me with the same brush, too?
    Goose/Gander


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  8. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    All that huffing and puffing about how neglect/abuse will happen... I will repeat, that's something we handle thru regulations, enforcement, and supervision.
    Wait, which side are you on?

    Isn't that exactly what the pro-slaughter side is saying, and the anti-slaughter side is saying that regulation, enforcement, and supervision won't work because it hasn't previously?

    Does that mean all those threads with people complaining about how animal control won't respond well/soon enough/lets everyone off easy are lying?
    Or are you saying those regulations can be changed and suddenly upheld, but that can't happen with regulations regarding transport/slaughter?



  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    Wait, which side are you on?

    Isn't that exactly what the pro-slaughter side is saying, and the anti-slaughter side is saying that regulation, enforcement, and supervision won't work because it hasn't previously?

    Does that mean all those threads with people complaining about how animal control won't respond well/soon enough/lets everyone off easy are lying?
    Or are you saying those regulations can be changed and suddenly upheld, but that can't happen with regulations regarding transport/slaughter?
    Who said regulations and inspections were not working?
    There were and are millions of horses slaughtered without any problems.
    There were instances where "some" regulations were broken, "some" times inspectors made reports, as in any other we do, is the way the system WORKS.
    That inspectors inspect and look that anything wrong is fixed is the system working, not "look,someone messed up, lets ban it all!".
    Animal rights extremists groups use those exceptions to, thru myths and propaganda make the gullible believe that is the way ALL of slaughter is, ALL of dairies operate, ALL that have animals are abusers.

    Surely those that have any animals ought to know better?
    They, if they realize it or not, are also targeted by association, as animals users, when the propaganda is making ANY animal use = animal abuse.

    The truth, for many years millions of horses were handled by traders, taken to slaughter plants, handled in the plants and killed without any abuses but the rare ones.
    Right, NONE is the goal, but that is not going to happen, no matter what we do in life, but is also no reason to, because someone, somewhere may abuse, we need to ban it all.

    Banning slaughter following animal rights extremist myths and propaganda is inherently wrong, abuse of the gullible public by them to further their goals of eliminating all uses of animals by humans, by using the abuse card out of context.

    Those animal rights extremist groups is one reason there is even talk of banning slaughter, as normal people, not fanatics as those, would work to make whatever we do, slaughter also, better, not ban it.



  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    Wait, which side are you on?

    Isn't that exactly what the pro-slaughter side is saying, and the anti-slaughter side is saying that regulation, enforcement, and supervision won't work because it hasn't previously?

    Does that mean all those threads with people complaining about how animal control won't respond well/soon enough/lets everyone off easy are lying?
    Or are you saying those regulations can be changed and suddenly upheld, but that can't happen with regulations regarding transport/slaughter?
    LOL no...

    I'm saying if the regulations/laws that stop abusers and prosecute neglecters can't be upheld... how can the regulations/laws for slaughter be upheld?

    If one can't be enforced 'cause there's no $$ to do so, etc. ... how can the other... particularly in light of it not being done previously or presently [ie outstanding fines still unpaid, wrist slap reactions to those caught, etc.]??

    It's hypocritical to say one will [that hasn't] but another can't.
    And it would be stupid to believe when an industry that never has, says it will.
    'Fool me once...' and all that.

    This conundrum bed has been made by the players in this industry. That they now don't wanna' lie in it isn't my problem. It's theirs.


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  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    LOL no...

    I'm saying if the regulations/laws that stop abusers and prosecute neglecters can't be upheld... how can the regulations/laws for slaughter be upheld?

    If one can't be enforced 'cause there's no $$ to do so, etc. ... how can the other... particularly in light of it not being done previously or presently [ie outstanding fines still unpaid, wrist slap reactions to those caught, etc.]??

    It's hypocritical to say one will [that hasn't] but another can't.
    And it would be stupid to believe when an industry that never has, says it will.
    'Fool me once...' and all that.

    This conundrum bed has been made by the players in this industry. That they now don't wanna' lie in it isn't my problem. It's theirs.
    Again, you are assuming the laws and regulations did and are not working.

    Wrong, they are, other than some exceptions and those, well, enforcing and fining and all that, that falls under proper management.

    Why not work for that, not to just throw the baby away with the bathwater, that in reality is the ultimate goal of some animal rights extremists, that is why we are at all having this absurd discussion, as absurd as demanding we ban religions because, look all those abuses happening there?


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  12. #452
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    I would not put any credibility in Angela. She stated over and over she would provide a solution AFTER I did this..
    After I did that
    After the hoop was jumped through

    THEN...NOPE...I am NOT going to give you a solution

    Ft MacLeod..don't even go there with an old tape...altered..that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police had removed from u tube BECAUSE it was altered..and very very old...as confirmed by the death of one of the workers "featured" and two others who had NOT worked at the plant for almost a decade.

    You do not care if there was a 100% success rate from trucking to kill.

    You have decided that you, and others of your ilk should control what others say, think and do.

    Nice part about this "discussion" Angela has proven she has no access to anything new information wise. She has proven she doesn't even read the links she provides...where Anne states her study is based on THEORY
    And it is easy for Angela to be resonsible for horses she has produced. According to a COTHER...she hasn't bred any..."MAYBE" owned one..and doesn't have any now.

    As I pointed out...many forums have had thos who oppose slaughter try and hit the airwaves, newspapers and forums.

    Thankfully, livestock owners and pet owners are now aware of the dangers of these groups and they are organizing against them


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  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Again, you are assuming the laws and regulations did and are not working.

    Wrong, they are, other than some exceptions and those, well, enforcing and fining and all that, that falls under proper management.
    With the AG Gag laws being enacted, we'll never know, will we?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  14. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I would not put any credibility in Angela. She stated over and over she would provide a solution AFTER I did this..
    After I did that
    After the hoop was jumped through

    THEN...NOPE...I am NOT going to give you a solution

    Ft MacLeod..don't even go there with an old tape...altered..that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police had removed from u tube BECAUSE it was altered..and very very old...as confirmed by the death of one of the workers "featured" and two others who had NOT worked at the plant for almost a decade.

    You do not care if there was a 100% success rate from trucking to kill.

    You have decided that you, and others of your ilk should control what others say, think and do.

    Nice part about this "discussion" Angela has proven she has no access to anything new information wise. She has proven she doesn't even read the links she provides...where Anne states her study is based on THEORY
    And it is easy for Angela to be resonsible for horses she has produced. According to a COTHER...she hasn't bred any..."MAYBE" owned one..and doesn't have any now.

    As I pointed out...many forums have had thos who oppose slaughter try and hit the airwaves, newspapers and forums.

    Thankfully, livestock owners and pet owners are now aware of the dangers of these groups and they are organizing against them
    And you accuse others of stalking you?
    LOL

    Oh and the COTH'er you talked to would be wrong.



  15. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    And you accuse others of stalking you?
    LOL

    Oh and the COTH'er you talked to would be wrong.
    Nice part about this "discussion" Angela has proven she has no access to anything new information wise. She has proven she doesn't even read the links she provides...where Anne states her study is based on THEORY
    And it is easy for Angela to be resonsible for horses she has produced. According to a COTHER...she hasn't bred any..."MAYBE" owned one..and doesn't have any now.
    So Angy how many horses do you own. Just here trolling?



  16. #456
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    7HL you are TOO funny!!
    Yup that's me trolling... that's why I am one of a very few people posting and offering links and references to the information I share.


    Here's the information on drugs in imports to Japan:

    Links to drug Index and MRL pages for each drug here:
    http://www.mhlw.go.jp/english/topics/mrls/index.html

    Drug index:
    http://www.mhlw.go.jp/english/topics/mrls/dl/mrls2.pdf

    You can look up as many drugs as you want to, I looked up 2 and copied the info below.


    171. DEXAMETHASONE
    Horse, muscle 0.01 [pr/MRL]

    360. IVERMECTIN
    Horse, muscle
    0.01 [pr/MRl] (mg/kg)
    FC [Ref] *
    0.002 [PAL] **
    0.01 [AU]***
    0.01 [NZ]***
    3-2-1,6 [Type]


    *the source of MRLs used in developing the first draft provisional MRLs
    (e.g., MRL, WHL, Codex ).
    In the heading of “Ref.,” “FC” stands for foreign countries and means that
    one or more of the current MRLs in the four countries and the EU were
    used.

    **PAL: the limit of quantification or determination (LOD) under the Pharmaceutical Affairs Law.

    ***
    US: the MRL in the United States of America.
    AU: the MRL in Australia.
    CA: the MRL in Canada.
    EU: the MRL in the European Union.
    NZ: the MRL in New Zealand




    I also came across this information on Bute and it's use in people in the past:


    FDA:

    “Use in horses is limited to use in horses not intended for food. There are currently no approved uses of Phenylbutazone in food-producing animals,” states an official FDA announcement from 2003.*
    “Phenylbutazone is known to induce blood dyscrasias, including aplastic anemia, leukopenia, agranulocytosis, thrombocytopenia, and deaths,” according to the FDA.
    “Hypersensitivity reactions of the serum-sickness type have also been reported. In addition, Phenylbutazone is a carcinogen, as determined by the National Toxicology Program,” states the announcement.*

    In 1949, Phenylbutazone was marketed for people to use for the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis and gout, but once people started to experience “severe toxic reactions,” the drug was taken off the market and banned, according to the FDA.*

    The horse slaughter border business works something like this: the horses are bought at an auction, crammed onto a truck, and transported south or north, and something like a shipper’s certificate is signed, according to Pringle.*
    “It says, ‘As the owner of this horse, to the best of my knowledge, this horse has never received any banned drugs,’” she said about the certificate.
    However, the new owners have only owned the horses for 24 hours.*
    “They sign this affidavit to the best of their knowledge,” Pringle said. “That is how they are allowed over the border. You can see it’s ripe for fraud.”

    In mid-February 2013, EU Health and Consumer Policy Commissioner Tonio Borg “called for a reinforcement of DNA and Phenylbutazone tests throughout the EU,” according to an official Feb. 15 memo.

    The EU and Canada have also banned bute from being administered to food-producing animals.*

    The EU gets the majority of their horsemeat from Canada and Mexico, and the majority of that is from American horses, according to Pringle.*

    http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/unit...on-349748.html



    And this is interesting, considering no one has mentioned it:

    NEW RULES ON HORSE MEAT EXPORTS

    Rules for exporting horse meat to Europe are demanding more traceability and additional food safety measures. The rules changed when the EU food and veterinary office conducted two audits of the Canadian system, as well as other nations supplying horse meat, and found few animal records were
    available. In addition, the audit found that there was no system to segregate horses for food from those in the general population. Within three years, Canada must have electronic identification and provide traceability on all horses entering plants. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) will enforce the new requirements, including the provision of horse identification and health documents that include treatment records for the last six months of animals’ lives. The changes affect horses from the United States. The U.S. banned horse slaughter in 2007 and now thousands are exported to Canada or Mexico for processing. Canada has about one million horses and in 2008 over 110,000 were processed. Canada consumes about ten percent of the available horse meat, while the majority is shipped to the EU. Approximately thirty percent of the horse meat consumed in Europe comes from Canada.

    http://gain.fas.usda.gov/Recent%20GA..._1-29-2010.pdf


    Considering what I bolded re: electronic ID and traceability.... do you still think that they will want US horses to slaughter for whatever market they are selling to?
    Last edited by Angela Freda; Mar. 6, 2013 at 05:45 PM.


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    Fairfax, not in any response to any particular thread or posting, but why do you spend so much energy trying to convince others that slaughter is good, slaughter is needed, and slaughter is not abusive and that the majority of "animals" sent to slaughter are taken care of with care and respect? Why are you so involved and concerned with those hundred of thousands of unwanted horses that are alive and you are so - what appears to be vehemently and adamant in sending down the pipeline to what could end up being a horrible horrible death?


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    Quote Originally Posted by 7HL View Post
    So Angy how many horses do you own. Just here trolling?
    Why don't you pose that question to some of your pro slaughter buddies?

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



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    Quote Originally Posted by andylover View Post
    Fairfax, not in any response to any particular thread or posting, but why do you spend so much energy trying to convince others that slaughter is good, slaughter is needed, and slaughter is not abusive and that the majority of "animals" sent to slaughter are taken care of with care and respect? Why are you so involved and concerned with those hundred of thousands of unwanted horses that are alive and you are so - what appears to be vehemently and adamant in sending down the pipeline to what could end up being a horrible horrible death?
    After becoming involved in rescues at a very early age and having an opportunity to observe that not all horses could be nor should be rescued I started to look at the slaugthter issue.

    I worked for Burns Food and was assigned to work in the plant (fancy offals department) I watched the slaughter (this was during the late 60's...yikes.

    Horses were also slaughtered...i.e. "We buy Fox Meat Horses". Alpo Dog Food serving your pet delicious and nutritious horse meat.

    I didn't have the stomach to stay on the kill floor and "advanced to a division" working for the President Arthur Child.

    Out of that business totally and into university..however I owned Arabs and my family had in excess of 300 using horses for the cowhands. We bred Arabs, TBs, Steel Dust (Quarter Horses) etc. Many times we would be at a sale and be bidding against the kill buyer.

    After the collapse of the equine market in the late 80's I saw a NEED. Too many horses and no where for them to go. They were purchased by the truckloads and many shipped from the U.S. into Canada.

    I would go to the High River auction mart and also attend the foal sale at Fort MacLeod every summer. I decided I should go and watch a kill process. It was terrible. Stallions were run up a chute behind mares behind young stock..panic everywhere.

    I looked the other way and decided I didn't need to know any more. Over the years I started to listen to the messages from groups such as PeTA and HSUS. I was offered a position to go and work for PETA by a group who produced rodeo's. I was able to climb the ladder so to speak as my employers made sure I had a lot of money to toss around. I became very concerned the more I listened and studied. Comments such as children should be eliminated in front of their parents so they could see how a HORSE FELT...I watched films of them (PETA) members throwing firebombs at livestock confined in pens at rodeo grounds. I watched them toss firecrackers at horses and riders in parades resulting in fatal injuries to horses and serious injuries to riders and viewers. I SAW EVIL.

    With the collapse of the slaughter houses and that was sponsored by PETA and HSUS ( athough the latter did say, at that time, slaughter was a good thing as it ultimately saved the horse ) I started to see this was orchestrated. Close down the plants (which were processing even then, about 80,000) and the strategy was to make sure the tax payer would have to cover the bill...But no one could have guessed the econonic turmoil, And droughts (normal in various parts of countries...but like the 30's..it was covering more land). and a general drop in horse ownership.

    Rescues started to become BIG BUSINESS and were declared the fastest growing segment of the equine industry around the year of 2004. Then I started to hear about abuses within that industry (another topic) but the slaughter issue had not disappeared...it just moved. A group of horsement were talking and we decidede we would approcach Ft MacLeod and VOLUNTEER to see if we could make it better.

    I had always gbred and shown dogs, and during that time..moving into the 70's I saw a philosophy of removing pets from human contact by some of the radical groups. Over a period of time, I watched it morph into all dog breeders BAD...everyone puppy farmers. And under the guise of going after the puppy producers they also started to eliminate serious and deidcated show dog breeders.

    I wasn't long before I saw the trend...they were moving towards horses..

    I watched them lie. I watched them produce films that they knew had been altered. I watched them refuse to work with any slaughter plants to make it better for the animals. THAT is how and why I joined the group and I used every Wednesday for numerous years to go, watch and make suggestions. These suggestions from so many talented observers who were horsemen/women..were eventually adapted by the plant owners. They saw the difference and the culture started to change.

    Around this time, I had a gelding who had been injured as a youngster and the decision was made to euthanize him. Someting went horribly wrong and it was not a quiet simple procedure. The horse fought striking his head and gouging an eye..the more the vet gave the more he became out of control. A neighbor was called to come quickly and shoot the horse...well..that wasn't necessary..as he did die..abruptly..but it took longer for him to die in pain than any mistake on a kill floor.

    I understand that was the RARE euthanization horror story same as there are the odd horrific slaughter plant stories. NOTHING is perfect.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #460
    Join Date
    Jun. 19, 2011
    Posts
    2,817

    Default

    I have around 15 or so registered to my name. More after the foals are born...3 expected

    Leo


    1 members found this post helpful.

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