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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Angela...this is old old old old and not even close to recent information.

    Guess Grandins quotes must be old....how long has it been since U.S. had plants operating?

    "
    Dec 2011- Not that old
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_orfuh2mt0s



  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    I remember that Video, Saw it not too long ago. BUT I thought there was Video in some of the CAttle processing plants in CA because of actual abuse there last year. IT was 24 /7 and monitored over the internet. And things cleaned up very well.
    Some cattle SH have video, that is done by a company the SH hires and only available to be viewed by SH management. TG requested the Can horse SH to have video, and they declined.



  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Jenn...In high school economics they teach us that infrastructure is paid for by the business. If they do use a public water, electrical system or anything involved with services they will also pay for that.

    Yes, it is tax deductible, the same as any other business is allowed to claim.
    Well, David Duquette already stated that building a slaughterhouse that Temple Grandin suggested would be too costly. So where are those deep pockets willing to shell out big money for a fancy recycling system?

    And thanks for the high school economics lesson!
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    The feedlot allows the horss to be drug free for six months. That will protect the Asian market. Horses that have had bute etc MAY or may not test positive. That is why the next test that can give results while the horse is alive will be so very important.

    The EU has very few facilities and their requirement for import is not substantiated by their own practices. They import from the eastern European countries, horses without any passport.

    The tests regarding Bute and cancer are still disputed by some pretty big names. I do not know if the claims are true or not.

    Now...your answer is?

    This answer makes 0 sense.

    The EU wants horses with passports. They have said so.
    On those passports should nary a gram of bute ever appear.
    If bute appears on that passport, the horse can not be slaughtered for human consumption at an EU plant [ie the ones in Canada and Mexico]
    If there is no passport, after July, no slaughter for human consumption.

    The EU states nothing about tests, withdrawal periods or any of the other stuff you're insisting is what will 'be' re: bute or withdrawal periods for drugs that are clearly on the EUs no-no list

    And if you happen to be right that they import and slaughter for human consumption horses without passports [other than the 100,000+ from the US]... well I am just gonna' guess here, that the jokes on them, 'cause plenty of people are none too happy about the Bute, harmless or not, in the horsemeat that was slipped into meals supposedly containing beef.

    You are going to have to, sooner or later, admit that the jig's up, the information is getting out there about the quality and safety of this product.
    Or you can keep your head in the sand and keep pretending you know some super seekrit information no one knows but the authorities... and you that really and truly makes it ok even if it makes o sense.
    Last edited by Angela Freda; Mar. 4, 2013 at 09:06 PM.


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  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    Well, David Duquette already stated that building a slaughterhouse that Temple Grandin suggested would be too costly. So where are those deep pockets willing to shell out big money for a fancy recycling system?

    And thanks for the high school economics lesson!
    I have heard Asian countries are very willing to be the deep pockets to fund U.S. based, but Asian owned slaughter houses.


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  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Andylover it is my understanding that bute was used for people/in people for a while until the negative effects were realized.

    Look at Fura ointment. Who over the age of 35 hasn't slapped that on a horse boo-boo with their bare fingers? That's a big no-no now!

    I dunno who would do the studies to show horse drug X, Y or Z is safe for animals for human consumption because there's no real money in determining that, therefore no investors to fund it. Besides no guinea pigs wanting to sign up to be subjects. Fairfax? Bluey? Interested in being a subject of this study of the drug you says isn't so bad?
    Using, as an example, the warnings imposed by the Federal govt to post on cigarette packing at the expense of the govt and the cigarette companies that smoking causes cancer, birth defects etc. I find it challenging at best to think that extensive testing wasnt perfomed before the manufacturers to banamine, bute, wormers etc. before the warnings were labeled didntdo their homework. Once the labeling is to include warnings not for human consumption then without confirmed results to prove otherwise then the labeling exists for a reason. However even with the labeling with the addition of horse meat to the food chain in the US and those who already consume tainted meat - those may be first to file a lawsuit against the manfufacturer when after eating horsemeat they develop cancer.
    So guessing the companies that produce those products with the health warnings are saving their own finacial butts by attempting to stop liable cases with continued testing to the health risks.



  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    The feedlot allows the horss to be drug free for six months. That will protect the Asian market. Horses that have had bute etc MAY or may not test positive. That is why the next test that can give results while the horse is alive will be so very important.

    The EU has very few facilities and their requirement for import is not substantiated by their own practices. They import from the eastern European countries, horses without any passport.

    The tests regarding Bute and cancer are still disputed by some pretty big names. I do not know if the claims are true or not.

    Now...your answer is?
    If the manufacturer is still labeling "not for use in animals intended for food" and its their behind if someone sues then I would believe the manufacturer and not some "big name" company who may or may not have alternative objective to sway the outcome. We also dont know what big pockets paid for the new testing to be performed



  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    This answer makes 0 sense.

    The EU wants horses with passports. They have said so.
    On those passports should nary a gram of bute ever appear.
    If bute appears on that passport, the horse can not be slaughtered for human consumption at an EU plant [ie the ones in Canada and Mexico]
    If there is no passport, after July, no slaughter for human consumption.

    The EU states nothing about tests, withdrawal periods or any of the other stuff you're insisting is what will 'be' re: bute or withdrawal periods for drugs that are clearly on the EUs no-no list

    And if you happen to be right that they import and slaughter for human consumption horses without passports [other than the 100,000+ from the US]... well I am just gonna' guess here, that the jokes on them, 'cause plenty of people are none too happy about the Bute, harmless or not, in the horsemeat that was slipped into meals supposedly containing beef.

    You are going to have to, sooner or later, admit that the jig's up, the information is getting out there about the quality and safety of this product.
    Or you can keep your head in the sand and keep pretending you know some super seekrit information no one knows but the authorities... and you that really and truly makes it ok even if it makes o sense.
    Thank you for your evaluation.

    Now..your solution for 150,000 horses over the next 12 months is?


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  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by andylover View Post
    If the manufacturer is still labeling "not for use in animals intended for food" and its their behind if someone sues then I would believe the manufacturer and not some "big name" company who may or may not have alternative objective to sway the outcome. We also dont know what big pockets paid for the new testing to be performed
    We are aware that HSUS has encouraged USDA to accept the tests they have provided and those also provided to the USDA that support the "do not consume" label. They have also worked very hard to have the USDA NOT conduct nor accept any other tests.

    The Canadian test is co sponsored by Guelph Vet University and the Canadian Dept of Agriculture. I do not know if there are any other donors. It will not test for cancer but rather to see IF the drugs stay in the meat. And, the test will be able to determine that from a sample from a live animal.


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  10. #370
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    I'll direct your attention to an investigation into Bouvry's feed lots. Since many on this forum are concerned with high starch versus low starch diets, perhaps this may partially be the reason that so many of the OBESE draft horses in the feedlots are lying flat out on their sides. Another cause, of course, may simply be founder from too much and too rich food.

    An Alberta winter is definitely not where a horse would want to be with no shelter provided.

    http://animalsangels.org/images/stor...gary%20Ltd.pdf

    Other random thoughts: I remember hearing that there are several tests that can be done for bute, one being not a very reliable test and another (involving the liver?) being far better.

    Bute in racehorses: Several years ago the California Racing Assn ran the numbers and determined that over 96+% of all horses racing in California at that time had been given bute at least once and probably on a routine basis. I would bet that horses at other tracks in the U.S. probably are similar.

    I'll also bet that most pleasure/show horses have had bute at least once in their lifetimes--in my experience at a barn for the last 20 years (and this is a bare bones do it yourself barn) almost all (90+%) of the horses have had bute at one time or the other (nicks and scrapes, sore muscles, etc).

    The drug thing IS a big deal. Everyone here has been talking about it for years but it fell on deaf ears until this latest horsemeat flap. And remember that this involved countries and horses where all of the EU regulations were supposedly being upheld.


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  11. #371
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    I have written often on this topic as an opinion columnist. I have not read the whole thread so I am sorry if I'm repeating something already stated.
    A few things to note. When slaughterhouses move into communities, violent crime and sexually violent crime rates rise:
    http://oae.sagepub.com/content/22/2/158.abstract

    Slaughterhouses are a drain, not a boost, to local economies:
    http://www.nashvillescene.com/pitw/a...tches-of-blood

    No anti-slaughter bill ever deprived owners of unwanted horses of the "right" to kill their own horses.

    The average age of a horse sent to slaughter is 7.

    Let's run through the economics of horse slaughter. If you sell a horse to a killer buyer you usually take in several hundred dollars. If you pay a vet to put down a horse and have the carcass disposed of, it's at least $500 in costs. That's an approximate $800 difference and therein lies the truth about why so many horse owners and breeders want slaughterhouses to reopen in the US.

    There is, I am sure, a hot hole in the basement of hell for people who've had the privilege of owning these wonderful, sentient, emotive creatures and who just dispose of them willy-nilly when they no longer make money for their owners.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    This answer makes 0 sense.

    The EU wants horses with passports. They have said so.
    On those passports should nary a gram of bute ever appear.
    If bute appears on that passport, the horse can not be slaughtered for human consumption at an EU plant [ie the ones in Canada and Mexico]
    If there is no passport, after July, no slaughter for human consumption.

    The EU states nothing about tests, withdrawal periods or any of the other stuff you're insisting is what will 'be' re: bute or withdrawal periods for drugs that are clearly on the EUs no-no list

    And if you happen to be right that they import and slaughter for human consumption horses without passports [other than the 100,000+ from the US]... well I am just gonna' guess here, that the jokes on them, 'cause plenty of people are none too happy about the Bute, harmless or not, in the horsemeat that was slipped into meals supposedly containing beef.

    You are going to have to, sooner or later, admit that the jig's up, the information is getting out there about the quality and safety of this product.
    Or you can keep your head in the sand and keep pretending you know some super seekrit information no one knows but the authorities... and you that really and truly makes it ok even if it makes o sense.
    Geography lesson. Canada is NOT part of the E.U.

    The passport system states the horse must be owned by the person submitting the passport for a minimum of SIX MONTHS.

    Financial Fact. Asia is NOT a member of the E.U. either. They do NOT require a passport. There are many many uses for horses not to be used for human consumption. They can be fed to other animals. Their hides are used for shoes, belts, jackets, sports good. Their manes and tails are recycled to show horse hair extentions and false fails and they are also used in brushes. Other products derived from horses are fertilizers and binder products for road gravel. The uses are endless.

    This is what slaughter is about. A PRIVATELY owned company using a product for everything from food to fertilizer.

    David is not an economist and United Horsemen, while supportive and great for watching Rara grouops...are not spokepersons for the slaughter industry.

    the Asian market which is, according to dept of economic affairs (Canada) is about 40 times that of the E.U. and they are not experiencing the financial constraints of so many of the E.U. countries.

    Now...back to YOUR solution....150,000 horses...... I am still waiting as are all the readers



  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Angela...this is old old old old and not even close to recent information.

    I remember you when the rumour went around that ALL slaughter had been brought to a sudden stop. The Canadian Coalition took CREDIT and actually had one of their members come on COTH and take credit and applaud the end. Their website was almost a love in.

    I called the Republican rep (can't remember her name) and she stated NOPE...it was not due to the EU. I published that and the COTH Cluster group stated...oh yeah...did you call the president...and others just called me a liar when I stated it was NOT on the EU websites. One poster stated she had first hand information and had CALLED the EU and they confirmed Slaughter was over. No more horses from Canada and U.S. They were contaminated etc


    I said NOPE...not so..again I was called a liar by your group.

    I predicted that by Monday it would be back to normal. I was out by two days as the Canadian plants took the time to clean and steralize (which ALL food processing plants do ...whether it is vegetables....drinks (Coca cola has closed its plants numerous times )


    WOW...all of you stopped with YOUR LIES...Your slef proclaimed stories and disappeared. The Canadian Coalition and HSUS took it off their websites.

    Guess Grandins quotes must be old....how long has it been since U.S. had plants operating?

    Bluey has stated and anyone with management experience knows it is MANAGEMENT that determine the philosophy and culture of a business. You think everyone who works for MacDonald's LOVES nasty men and women and their spoiled screaming kids>? NOPE...but they know they will lose their job if they do not grit their teeth and say..."Let me make it right"

    Plants can operate as Fort MacLeod with, video's and incentives.

    Until then...I am STILL waiting Angela, Jenn and the rest of you...What is YOUR solution to take care of 150,000 horses over the next 12 months...without tax payer money.

    Euthanization at whose expense if the people don't have money....should horse sales be outlawed?

    Don't be shy Angela....give me a realistic answer other than..."well' horse owners will have to solve it"
    If the horse owners is not responsible then it becomes the burden of the tax payers.. too much history to not refute that.. there is a surplus of horses, always has been.. the public when wanting to go buy a horse want plenty of supply in which to look at and will complain when there isnt enough horses in which to view. plus with less horses, those that are on the market for sale for personal use and not for food the price will see no end. the horse truly may again become only for the well to do.. ok, so again there is a surplus, but I dont think turning us more into human guinea pigs to determine if down the road 20 some odd years that all of a sudden "oops yep bute, banamine etc causes cancer" and let those survivors sue "us" is the route to go.. we have all heard those stories where in big corporations is actually cheaper to pay off the lawsuit claims then to stop production etc.

    Fairfax, taxes are paid to support the U.S., including the farmer, rancher, as well as the horse industry. As a horse owner, I support tractor, truck, and trailer companies which in turn pay their share of taxes from my business. I support local business by paying top dollar for tires, oil changes, etc. I pay more into the insurance company as well as higher license plate fees - all because I own horses. I support local ranchers with the purchase of hay, I support local horticulture centers by providing manure.. I support my vets.. All of these companies pay employees and employees pay taxes plus the business itself pays income taxes. so if the tax payer is complaining because of their perceived rise in taxes, then if the horse industry went away completely - how much do you think that would affect the economy in general?
    If this has been broached before in this posting, I didnt mean to duplicate.. may have missed the posting


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  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter.pleasure View Post
    I have written often on this topic as an opinion columnist. I have not read the whole thread so I am sorry if I'm repeating something already stated.
    A few things to note. When slaughterhouses move into communities, violent crime and sexually violent crime rates rise:
    http://oae.sagepub.com/content/22/2/158.abstract

    Slaughterhouses are a drain, not a boost, to local economies:
    http://www.nashvillescene.com/pitw/a...tches-of-blood

    No anti-slaughter bill ever deprived owners of unwanted horses of the "right" to kill their own horses.

    The average age of a horse sent to slaughter is 7.

    Let's run through the economics of horse slaughter. If you sell a horse to a killer buyer you usually take in several hundred dollars. If you pay a vet to put down a horse and have the carcass disposed of, it's at least $500 in costs. That's an approximate $800 difference and therein lies the truth about why so many horse owners and breeders want slaughterhouses to reopen in the US.

    There is, I am sure, a hot hole in the basement of hell for people who've had the privilege of owning these wonderful, sentient, emotive creatures and who just dispose of them willy-nilly when they no longer make money for their owners.
    Thank you for your subjective article.

    Horses are livestock. Your analysis of who sells and why is recycled pap circulated by Animal Rights

    The issue re slaughter house versus crime has already be explained and the original paper did not address the impact of English second language or no english at all coupled with ethnic isolation. While providing a financial living for the workers, the children are often isolated and turn to gangs.

    This is NOT because they work in slaughter. It is no different than any employment that has concerntrations of ethnic groups because whites from North America don't want to do THAT type of work

    Anti slaughter groups such as HSUS DO restrict the manner that horses can be killed. Their sponsored vets REFUSE to kill any healthy horse or old healthy horse just because the owner can no longer afford it.

    I would suggest you read more on the subject.



  15. #375
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    Thank you TKR!!!!
    Isn't it interesting that most of the pro-slaughter comments on this page are by apparent alcoholics? They're talking about early-morning drinking. Wassup?

    Quote Originally Posted by TKR View Post
    FYI - the Oklahoma State Senate has passed an act to repeal the horse slaughter ban in the State of Oklahoma! PLEASE take the time to call the office of Governor Mary Fallin (405) 523-1342 - leave a message w/receptionist (be polite!) voicing your opposition to the repeal of this ban. The way these animals are transported, handled and killed is inappropriate, cruel and inhumane. Horses are NOT for consumption! Governor Fallin has expressed a keen interest in this phone poll which will greatly influence her decision to sign or not sign this into law! You can also call the message line and leave your message opposing this repeal after hours - 405-522-8857. You can also send the Governor an email on the subject -- PLEASE do so! Most of the horses killed are young and viable -- it's a disgrace! Please email and share so that her office can be inundated with this information! Thank you!

    You may want this -- but it is sickening and disgusting as far as I am concerned. So many of these horses aren't killed by that damned bolt and are aware they are being literally eviscerated while alive! NO HORSE DESERVES THIS SORT OF DEATH!
    PennyG



  16. #376
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    Canada supplies horsemeat to the EU - so they need to comply.
    The passport system actually wants no bute in the horse ever. I believe it's the US that's trying to skirt that issue by now having the horses stand around in feedlots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Geography lesson. Canada is NOT part of the E.U.

    The passport system states the horse must be owned by the person submitting the passport for a minimum of SIX MONTHS.

    Financial Fact. Asia is NOT a member of the E.U. either. They do NOT require a passport. There are many many uses for horses not to be used for human consumption. They can be fed to other animals. Their hides are used for shoes, belts, jackets, sports good. Their manes and tails are recycled to show horse hair extentions and false fails and they are also used in brushes. Other products derived from horses are fertilizers and binder products for road gravel. The uses are endless.

    This is what slaughter is about. A PRIVATELY owned company using a product for everything from food to fertilizer.

    David is not an economist and United Horsemen, while supportive and great for watching Rara grouops...are not spokepersons for the slaughter industry.

    the Asian market which is, according to dept of economic affairs (Canada) is about 40 times that of the E.U. and they are not experiencing the financial constraints of so many of the E.U. countries.

    Now...back to YOUR solution....150,000 horses...... I am still waiting as are all the readers


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  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter.pleasure View Post
    Thank you TKR!!!!
    Isn't it interesting that most of the pro-slaughter comments on this page are by apparent alcoholics? They're talking about early-morning drinking. Wassup?
    I do have to respectfully object and point out that the pro-ban faction suggested the drinking game.

    And I was actually hoping they would put booze where the mouth is, alas, I guess I can't have everything in life.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.



  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by andylover View Post
    If the horse owners is not responsible then it becomes the burden of the tax payers.. too much history to not refute that.. there is a surplus of horses, always has been.. the public when wanting to go buy a horse want plenty of supply in which to look at and will complain when there isnt enough horses in which to view. plus with less horses, those that are on the market for sale for personal use and not for food the price will see no end. the horse truly may again become only for the well to do.. ok, so again there is a surplus, but I dont think turning us more into human guinea pigs to determine if down the road 20 some odd years that all of a sudden "oops yep bute, banamine etc causes cancer" and let those survivors sue "us" is the route to go.. we have all heard those stories where in big corporations is actually cheaper to pay off the lawsuit claims then to stop production etc.

    Fairfax, taxes are paid to support the U.S., including the farmer, rancher, as well as the horse industry. As a horse owner, I support tractor, truck, and trailer companies which in turn pay their share of taxes from my business. I support local business by paying top dollar for tires, oil changes, etc. I pay more into the insurance company as well as higher license plate fees - all because I own horses. I support local ranchers with the purchase of hay, I support local horticulture centers by providing manure.. I support my vets.. All of these companies pay employees and employees pay taxes plus the business itself pays income taxes. so if the tax payer is complaining because of their perceived rise in taxes, then if the horse industry went away completely - how much do you think that would affect the economy in general?
    If this has been broached before in this posting, I didnt mean to duplicate.. may have missed the posting
    The seizures of unwanted or neglected horses is usually determined by a county. You are correct. They assume financial responsibility however they quickly assign the horses over to rescues and they are allowed to charge an adoption fee with ownership regulations.

    No one is holding a gun to anyones head to eat horse meat. We do, as consumers have the right to know what is in our food. That was the major problem in Europe. False labels on products. The wrath of the law should be on those companies and organizations.

    Tax payers also subsidize old age homes for people. They subsidize local Human Society groups either with money OR giving them tax breaks. Tax payers subsidize Food Stamps.

    Tax payers do not subsidize slaughter plants who pay wages, provide benefits for workers and families and pay taxes. They order supplies. They pay for trucking, they pay for feed for the horses (hay and grain) they pay for building supplies, If the plant is going into a depressed area they may receive tax breaks on property assessments.

    The impact in Canada if all horses were removed and no one purchased any products associated with them from real estate to pharmacy..14 BILLION DOLLARS per year.

    4.6 million Americans are involved in the industry as horse owners, service providers, employees and volunteers. Tens of millions more participate as spectators.
    2 million people own horses.
    The horse industry has a direct economic effect on the U.S.of $39 billion annually.


    http://www.theequestrianchannel.com/id3.html

    The horse industry is one of the largest employers of individuals with grade 9 or less and with ESL issues or reading.

    Slaughter is a SMALL PIECE of the puzzle.

    Now where are all of those solutions from Jenn and Angela



  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    Canada supplies horsemeat to the EU - so they need to comply.
    The passport system actually wants no bute in the horse ever. I believe it's the US that's trying to skirt that issue by now having the horses stand around in feedlots.
    Again...while the EU is a large consumer they not the largest. They are established however. Horse meat exported to EU for human consumption will meet their requirements. Or, the market will close.

    The new Rara's are trying to attack the feedlots...however what do Rara's think horses do all day long...they stand around and EAT.

    What is YOUR solution that will immediately impact 150,000 horses over the nest 12 months. ???



  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    I do have to respectfully object and point out that the pro-ban faction suggested the drinking game.

    And I was actually hoping they would put booze where the mouth is, alas, I guess I can't have everything in life.....


    ... and the musical chairs game continues, same posts, same answers, same posts, same answers ...

    No one listening that Europe is not the only market, not even the bigger market.

    I will repeat, banning slaughter is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, is following animal rights extremists bandwagons, one more nail on the coffin of our rights to our animals, what a shame so many are blind to that reality.

    Remember:

    ANIMAL RIGHTS: "One generation and no more domestic animals and none too soon for me".

    ANIMAL WELFARE: Lets do all we do with our animals the best we know how to, within the many already existing laws and regulations.

    Having rights for all demand that we start by honoring those of others, even those we may not agree with.



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