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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    then why, instead of sitting there like the princess on the pea, won't you get involved.

    But you do expect the world to do your work for you....
    You want to know, you go find out.
    Wrong. I expect those who claim the road to slaughter isn't a terrible end the vast majority of the time for the horse, to be able to back it up. That is all. You can't, because there isn't any proof anywhere. Even for someone like me who can and have many times killed an animal. You can't because it doesn't exist.

    Alagirl, for the most part I think you are an okay person, objective etc. but on this subject you are very dogmatic. I honestly wonder why?


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  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    But doesn't that work in your favor? No demand and they sit empty, and those evil bastards that would build a horse slaughter plant have wasted their money.

    I have never figured out why the anti-slaughter factions aren't spending their resources on making sure the end user is well aware of the possible risks; why not think outside of the box and stop it from the other end of the chain? Again, no demand, no plants running.
    I don't either. That would seem to be a logical next step. But that doesn't get the real RARA's the kind of publicity they're looking for. No photos, for example.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  3. #283
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    That last post of mine brings me to question. How many of you pro-slaughter folks have killed an animal up close and personal? Especially since it's worse for me now as older person in the few years. How many of you have seen an animal suffer from a bad kill lately, you know the last couple years? Boy howdy, I bet nary a one of you answer.



  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Indeed. Google.


    “Kassensturz,” a highly rated investigative reporting show concentrating on consumer issues, devoted an entire episode to our global campaign and the evidence discovered in our 2012 investigations. *Kassensturz has a broad reach in Europe and undoubtedly the evidence uncovered in the report came as a shock to their audience and has a far reaching effect. *This exposé, which aired on February 19, 2013, was a culmination of our year-long investigations and was an important and powerful step to not only raising consumer awareness but also promoting permanent change. *

    much more at:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...mr9nOI&ct=clnk

    Link to the actual show:
    http://www.srf.ch/konsum/themen/kons...f-pferdefarmen
    It's great that they are starting to...but this show was this year. And everything I can find about it was 2012, or the show you mentioned.

    Why, when slaughter was forced over the borders didn't anyone take that time to start a campaign to show the end user the possibility of drug contamination instead of wringing their hands over transport? Take the $$ everyone spent to fill the KB's pockets by buying overpriced horses from them to save them, shut down the demand and save more that way.

    You want to stop it? Then kill the demand; as long as there is demand, someone will fill it (Economics 101).



  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    That last post of mine brings me to question. How many of you pro-slaughter folks have killed an animal up close and personal?.
    Do it every day... Blood and guts everywhere.

    http://youtu.be/b0a6iWHSWbA
    "Have a Coke and a Smile"



  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    That last post of mine brings me to question. How many of you pro-slaughter folks have killed an animal up close and personal? Especially since it's worse for me now as older person in the few years. How many of you have seen an animal suffer from a bad kill lately, you know the last couple years? Boy howdy, I bet nary a one of you answer.
    Have I? Yes. In the last couple years, no. Of course that would because of a cross-country move to an area where waiting for a vet didn't involve hours.

    Bad kills? That would be a couple vet-assisted euthanasias; things went incredibly wrong and I still have nightmares, unfortunately.

    Having been "up close and personal" for both gunshot and chemical euthanasia, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that chemical euthanasia is nicer for the owner; it was faster for the animal by gunshot.

    Been there for cattle, both emergency situation and slaughter. Been there for pigs.

    And actually, I'm against the current horse slaughter situation; the long rides, the lack of oversight by an impartial party. Set it up right and I have no problem with it.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Wrong. I expect those who claim the road to slaughter isn't a terrible end the vast majority of the time for the horse, to be able to back it up. That is all.
    Why do we have to back up anything?

    Slaughter is killing, so is euthanasia.

    Killing is Killing.



  8. #288
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    Blah blah blah killing. Blah blah blah killing. Apparently you don't know the difference between a good death and bad death. Wish I could live in your fantasy world where all death's are equal.

    I watched both my parents die horrific deaths believe me the road to death can be a nightmare. I just really hope we as a species could be better at the delivery for animals and people alike. However with folks like you around FAT chance, the period before death doesn't seem to matter. Even though people who know anything about slaughter, for starters, the manner of death is the difference between a good steak and bad one.



  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Oh, Bluey. Debating this issue with you is like shovelling it against the tide, because this is your Crusade. When you can't convince us of your argument's merit, you dismiss all dissenters as shills for the RARA, and certainly no one's ever going to change your mind.

    I notice you've said that you have a few old retired horses at your place, though. Why have they not gone on to this "higher use" you so extol? You don't believe in leading by example? No one has denied you your "right" to do so . . .

    There are close to 3,000 people besides us reading this thread. Due to the lurid descriptions and links, I'd bet most of them now have a pretty clear idea what happens after the auction, and I'll bet this thread is responsible for shudders, nightmares, and a lot of extra hugs for Dobbin all across America today.

    The situation as it now stands is a fate no decent person will knowingly consign their horse to. Public sympathy runs about a thousand to one against building more U.S. plants for this industry. The entire future of horse meat in Europe is in disarray at the moment. Anything else is pie in the sky that probably won't happen.

    Probably time we all moved on to something more pleasant.
    I believe the 3000 readers will start to evaluate on their own. They will see that the slaughter industry left much to be desired but it was also stopped m,any many years ago. Canada has made significant changes but not all plants are "up and at it" Quebec still have changes to make.

    You can repeat over and over but it is not true. The horse meat in Europe is NOT in disarray. Check the papers who are reporting it. They tend to be the equivalent of our National Enquirer. The public are concerned about the lack of listing it on the label. They want to know WHAT they are eating.

    Asia is a HUGE market and exceeds the European market at the current time and they do not even require the passport system.

    Since the majority of the posters are recycling 10-15 year old videos (but they are getting sneaky by changing dates making it look like that are current) viewers are staring to catch on.

    On another thread there was a video from Fort MacLeod and they claimed it was current. They had it on u-tube..only problem was the workers could be identified. Two of them had been gone from employment at the plant for over 8 years. The RCMP contacted u-tube and it was removed.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    the manner of death is the difference between a good steak and bad one.
    So if we are nice to the horse before we kill it, it will taste better?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Well Farifax is also one to regurgitate extermist information he insists is cutting edge and his own proprietary knowledge... until it's shown it 's not, and it's not.

    Like the whole 'this issue right now is not drugs but mislabelling!'



    Really?
    That not what my friends in the UK are saying.
    They're pretty PO'd about the 'mislabelling', but they are REALLY PO'd about the drugs they are now learning were found in that meat.

    The plants in Canada that are using the new bolt haven't released the info about improvements that these facilities and implements have made... again, per Fairfax [shall I find the quote?]



    [note the lack of sources for his 'information']


    He [Fairfax/Maxwell] can think what he wants, and write what he wants, as is popular to say 'he's entitled to his own opinion, not his own facts', but since he never offers a link to any actual information, it's hard to take it for more than what it appears to be, regurgitation, his opinion and something he heard someone say once somewhere.
    I stated the bolt was in testing. I was looking forward to the release of information regarding it.

    I volunteered at Fort MacLeod. They do not do press releases as to changes or improvements. Why would they. YOU and anyone else can schedule a tour I have explained the changes made on numerous occasions.

    These are not earth shattering changes...different chute systems and higher siding. The way they move the horses into the chutes is not hurried

    You don't want to believe them..but then you also have never travelled to see for yourself. I have explained how one can get involved..It does make a difference. Oh Wait..it means travelling on your own dollar and donating your own time.

    Let see... I HAVE BEEN TOLD...and I mention October. If I had more information I would post it. That constitutes a lack of proof?

    Gosh..you really are scrapping the bottom of the barrel.


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  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I don't either. That would seem to be a logical next step. But that doesn't get the real RARA's the kind of publicity they're looking for. No photos, for example.
    Animal angels has been doing a lot of TV spots overseas explaining where the US horsemeat comes from, transport, slaughter conditions, and the fact that many of the horses are racehorses and none of the US horses have their meds tracked.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    That last post of mine brings me to question. How many of you pro-slaughter folks have killed an animal up close and personal? Especially since it's worse for me now as older person in the few years. How many of you have seen an animal suffer from a bad kill lately, you know the last couple years? Boy howdy, I bet nary a one of you answer.
    Actually yes, LAst summer, Several Squirrels and chipmunks, Terrible problem and I am a gardener. Shot them myself. Most clean a couple needed second shots. No death is not pretty. I still feel that because horse folks are so emotionally involved with horses we put HUMAN emotions to the slaughter issue. Wondering what the horse is feeling or thinking. We put our own emotions to the situation. I am far more concerned with the daily non killing abuse that goes on with horses at the hands of neglectful bad owners.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Animal angels has been doing a lot of TV spots overseas explaining where the US horsemeat comes from, transport, slaughter conditions, and the fact that many of the horses are racehorses and none of the US horses have their meds tracked.
    This aired in the UK recently:

    http://www.northstarhorserescue.org/?page_id=238

    While those for slaughter insist that they knew a guy who knew a guy once who might have said ____, those against repeatedly offer not only information but links to where to view that information and judge for yourself the validity and credibility... and make up your own mind what the issues are on this topic.



  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    This aired in the UK recently:

    http://www.northstarhorserescue.org/?page_id=238

    While those for slaughter insist that they knew a guy who knew a guy once who might have said ____, those against repeatedly offer not only information but links to where to view that information and judge for yourself the validity and credibility... and make up your own mind what the issues are on this topic.

    We know, the abuse card again.

    We can show videos of police beating people and make a case for all police being brutal abusers that are policemen only to get a chance to beat people up.

    Right, about like animal rights extremist videos and stories of abuse in slaughter.

    Yes, those that have been in slaughter plants and know how they work can tell you "it ain't so" until they are blue in the face, so can practically every policeman out there, but see, there are those videos and stories and conviction of those horrible policemen, there is our proof.
    We need to ban slaughter and policemen.


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  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I stated the bolt was in testing. I was looking forward to the release of information regarding it.

    I volunteered at Fort MacLeod. They do not do press releases as to changes or improvements. Why would they. YOU and anyone else can schedule a tour I have explained the changes made on numerous occasions.

    Yes because a scheduled visit wouldn't alert them to play nicer and behave better, right?

    Signs of underground activity were observed during the survey. At New Holland, one arriving trailer left without unloading when its driver saw the first author at the unloading dock. At one of the slaughter plants, horse numbers greatly decreased during the last day of observations. Word was out among the dealers that they were being "watched" for bad horses. The load which contained the Belgians and carriage horses was a load that the dealers had collected that was not fit for sale at the New Holland auction. As our days of observation increased the incidence of carcass damage caused by rough truck drivers with sticks may have decreased. People knew they were being watched.

    http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.transport.html


    There's also a study Temple Grandin did when she worked on making a pig slaughtering plant more humane AND more efficient with fewer accidents... in which after a few months of doing things on their own after Ms Grandin left, they slid back into their old ways of doing things... slid back into the old habits that were less safe, less efficient and less humane.

    That's how the world works, when people are watching, those being watched tend to toe the line.
    When not being watched things go to hell in a handbasket.
    Last edited by Angela Freda; Mar. 4, 2013 at 09:56 AM.



  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Yes because a scheduled visit wouldn't alert them to play nicer and behave better, right?

    Signs of underground activity were observed during the survey. At New Holland, one arriving trailer left without unloading when its driver saw the first author at the unloading dock. At one of the slaughter plants, horse numbers greatly decreased during the last day of observations. Word was out among the dealers that they were being "watched" for bad horses. The load which contained the Belgians and carriage horses was a load that the dealers had collected that was not fit for sale at the New Holland auction. As our days of observation increased the incidence of carcass damage caused by rough truck drivers with sticks may have decreased. People knew they were being watched.

    http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.transport.html

    There's also a study Temple Grandin did when she worked on making a pig slaughtering plant more humane AND more efficient with fewer accidents... in which after a few months of doing things on their own after Ms Grandin left, they slid back into their old ways of doing things... slid back into the old habits that were less safe, less efficient and less humane.

    That's how the world works, when people are watching, those being watched tend to toe the line.
    When not being watched things go to hell in a handbasket.
    then take a job there....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Yes because a scheduled visit wouldn't alert them to play nicer and behave better, right?

    Signs of underground activity were observed during the survey. At New Holland, one arriving trailer left without unloading when its driver saw the first author at the unloading dock. At one of the slaughter plants, horse numbers greatly decreased during the last day of observations. Word was out among the dealers that they were being "watched" for bad horses. The load which contained the Belgians and carriage horses was a load that the dealers had collected that was not fit for sale at the New Holland auction. As our days of observation increased the incidence of carcass damage caused by rough truck drivers with sticks may have decreased. People knew they were being watched.

    http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.transport.html

    There's also a study Temple Grandin did when she worked on making a pig slaughtering plant more humane AND more efficient with fewer accidents... in which after a few months of doing things on their own after Ms Grandin left, they slid back into their old ways of doing things... slid back into the old habits that were less safe, less efficient and less humane.

    That's how the world works, when people are watching, those being watched tend to toe the line.
    When not being watched things go to hell in a handbasket.
    Right, years old study that shows management needs to tighten up.
    Well, good news, it has, as it should.

    So, you want to ban slaughter because someone, somewhere was not doing their job right years ago and I am sure still today, but much less apt to, you can also find someone not doing their job right, a plant not being perfectly managed?

    You know, that comes under regulations and supervision, happens in all we do in life, is NO reason to ban anything over it.
    Banning slaughter because someone, somewhere, some time did or didn't do something right is throwing the baby out with the bath water, eliminating one more use of animals, as animal rights extremists are working to do.

    Sensible people work for animal welfare, they see that what we do with our animals, anywhere, be the best we can do, even in slaughter, not on trying to eliminate this or that use we make of our animals.
    Why is that such a hard concept to understand for some?


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  19. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7HL View Post
    So if we are nice to the horse before we kill it, it will taste better?
    Here's a study on the relationship of stress hormones and the quality of meat (not in horses), so I would think so.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22063148

    http://www.grandin.com/meat/meat.html

    http://www.beefcentral.com/u/lib/cms...animal-wel.pdf

    I tried to chose the sites least likely to be skewed one way or the other.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  20. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Right, years old study that shows management needs to tighten up.
    Well, good news, it has, as it should.

    So, you want to ban slaughter because someone, somewhere was not doing their job right years ago and I am sure still today, but much less apt to, you can also find someone not doing their job right, a plant not being perfectly managed?

    You know, that comes under regulations and supervision, happens in all we do in life, is NO reason to ban anything over it.
    Banning slaughter because someone, somewhere, some time did or didn't do something right is throwing the baby out with the bath water, eliminating one more use of animals, as animal rights extremists are working to do.

    Sensible people work for animal welfare, they see that what we do with our animals, anywhere, be the best we can do, even in slaughter, not on trying to eliminate this or that use we make of our animals.
    Why is that such a hard concept to understand for some?
    You keep insisting it has gotten better, that regulations are better and enforced, but you never offer a source for that information that can be viewed.
    Unless you can prove that things have changed, why should we blindly believe it has because someone on the internet says it has with no documentation [new or old]?
    Why is that such a hard concept to understand for some?


    Then in 1996, at the request of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Grandin began to audit processing plants, checking their compliance with both government and industry standards. She devised a scoring system with specific data points -- what percentage of animals are killed on the first attempt, how many cows are making noise in the pens, and so on -- that allowed her to grade plants.
    The results were abysmal: Just a third of plants passed her requirements for stunning cattle, killing them with a single shot.

    By contrast, the USDA’s inspection system still has many gaps. A General Accounting Office report in January found many inspectors did not report violations of federal slaughter regulations, often because they were unsure of how to apply the law.

    she found even most failing plants were 90 percent compliant -- but they never improved on the remaining 10 percent

    Indeed, workers and their training are a huge challenge.*

    she worries that industry practices, if left unchanged, become standard. “Bad becoming normal,” she says.
    So while Grandin takes animal activists to tasks for ignoring the beef industry’s improvements, she plans to keep showing up at the slaughterhouse gate. “The plants have gotten it,” she says. “What we’ve got to do is maintain them. We can’t let up.”


    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5271434/#.UTSu70bl_B4




    Like other divisions of agriculture, slaughterhouse and "meat"-processing workers are predominantly people of color living in low-income communities. Historically, a significant percentage of the workforce has been African American. In recent decades, an influx of Latin American workers has been seen across the country, partially due to active recruiting by the corporations. Today, approximately 38% of slaughterhouse and "meat"-processing workers were born outside

    http://www.foodispower.org/slaughterhouse_workers.php


    Book by a man who in fact went and worked in a beef slaughter plant, lots of information at link [below] on his observations of how workers, the one non-constant, least controllable factor in the plant are worth reading for those interested in learning more, and not stuck in their own position on the topic

    http://boingboing.net/2012/03/08/wor...-a-slaugh.html



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