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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Clearly you weren't... and didn't

    Originally Posted by Bluey
    Everything we do has consequences, no one is denying that.
    BUT, you are not being honest there, bringing the case of one plant that had a partially malfunctioning system to process water before being discharged, a plant that was where real estate was becoming pricey, or would if they could run industrial business out of there, like, horror, a slaughter plant.

    I agree, the plant was old and needed to go somewhere else and they knew that and were trying their best to run with what they had.

    Any other time, other place, they would have modernized, get their system replaced and stayed in business.




    I have no idea what that last sentence is supposed to mean...


    The next plant might work better... and yet history shows us that new plants do not work any better are not any better neighbors and regulations do not get enforced and fines do not [STILL] get collected...
    Have you not read what Fairfax is posting?

    They have plants that work right now, why keep insisting on what we had here many years ago for a standard today?

    You know, hospitals have been changing all along, lately they have special anti-bacterial soap dispensers in all aisles and in all rooms and they still have problems with compliance and are working on that.

    It is the same no matter where you have any one system, you do the best you can and keep learning and doing what you do best, slaughter included.

    I know many here are utterly clueless about management issues, read some animal rights extremist out of context story and reports and run with it saying see, we need to ban this or that because "they" say it is bad, look at this!

    Well, like in my hospital example, there is nothing that is perfect, whatever we do will have to work best we can, including any slaughter plant that may fall eventually into the new regulations and inspectors, if those are ever given a green light, which is really not a given in today's political environment.



  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    is that your problem?
    if they made widgets, does it matter?
    They sold their meat before, they are selling the American horses through plants in Mexico and Canada right now....
    And right now other countries that are the end consumers of same are none too happy... remember that who kerfuffle the 'mislabelling' that has turned into the increased knowledge amongst those consumers of just what is in the horsemeat coming outta' the US???


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  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    We demanded improvements before the plants closed and nothing got done. Look into what the town around Beltex went through, YEARS of complaining and trying to get things improved and lawsuits and injunctions. YEARS.

    LOL yes jobs! The plants will create JOBS! Seriously?
    And things have changed, as I said; you don't think that if those issues had occured today with the amount of people with access to the internet it might have been different? As I pointed out previously, look at the downer cow situation: I'm sure that had been happening for years, but with the internet and the spread of information it became a national story that forced changes.

    And you don't think the suggestion of more jobs will affect how polititians will vote on this? Really?



  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    And right now other countries that are the end consumers of same are none too happy... remember that who kerfuffle the 'mislabelling' that has turned into the increased knowledge amongst those consumers of just what is in the horsemeat coming outta' the US???
    But doesn't that work in your favor? No demand and they sit empty, and those evil bastards that would build a horse slaughter plant have wasted their money.

    I have never figured out why the anti-slaughter factions aren't spending their resources on making sure the end user is well aware of the possible risks; why not think outside of the box and stop it from the other end of the chain? Again, no demand, no plants running.



  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    And who is going to buy the meat. That's the biggest question right now. Who will buy from an American horse slaughter house?

    I only buy beef from my neighbor (and I can see how his cattle are farmed) or from a known beef producer. Poultry, I stick with no antibiotics, no hormones. Same for pork, I don't want the 15% added liquid and flavorings, thank you very much. My tofu is non GMO soy, so is the soymilk.

    I wouldn't buy it, even if I liked the taste of horse.

    You would not expect anyone to answer that one?
    That is proprietary information.
    There are markets out there for all kinds of things.

    See, you keep repeating those myths about hormones and antibiotics, no matter how many times that has been explained.
    Now, you are not alone, some clueless waitress did offer their menu choice of "beef without hormones".
    It was promptly explained to her that ALL beef has "hormones", more than they may ever have been used in an implant to improve feed efficiency and that those have been long out of it's system.
    Not only that, those same hormones are 1000x higher in one serving of most soy based products, like a soy-burger, what a surprise.

    There is so much misinformation being repeated out there by those with certain agendas, no wonder people don't know what to believe any more.



  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Have you not read what Fairfax is posting?

    They have plants that work right now, why keep insisting on what we had here many years ago for a standard today?

    You know, hospitals have been changing all along, lately they have special anti-bacterial soap dispensers in all aisles and in all rooms and they still have problems with compliance and are working on that.

    It is the same no matter where you have any one system, you do the best you can and keep learning and doing what you do best, slaughter included.

    I know many here are utterly clueless about management issues, read some animal rights extremist out of context story and reports and run with it saying see, we need to ban this or that because "they" say it is bad, look at this!

    Well, like in my hospital example, there is nothing that is perfect, whatever we do will have to work best we can, including any slaughter plant that may fall eventually into the new regulations and inspectors, if those are ever given a green light, which is really not a given in today's political environment.
    Well Farifax is also one to regurgitate extermist information he insists is cutting edge and his own proprietary knowledge... until it's shown it 's not, and it's not.

    Like the whole 'this issue right now is not drugs but mislabelling!'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post

    The issue is NOT drugs right now. It is mislabelling.
    Really?
    That not what my friends in the UK are saying.
    They're pretty PO'd about the 'mislabelling', but they are REALLY PO'd about the drugs they are now learning were found in that meat.

    The plants in Canada that are using the new bolt haven't released the info about improvements that these facilities and implements have made... again, per Fairfax [shall I find the quote?]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Please quote or direct me to your sources for that statement

    Much has changed over the past few years.

    New plants will be able to meet new standards.

    There is a new type of gun now in the final rounds of testing. I have been told it should be ready to go by October of this year.
    [note the lack of sources for his 'information']


    He [Fairfax/Maxwell] can think what he wants, and write what he wants, as is popular to say 'he's entitled to his own opinion, not his own facts', but since he never offers a link to any actual information, it's hard to take it for more than what it appears to be, regurgitation, his opinion and something he heard someone say once somewhere.
    Last edited by Angela Freda; Mar. 3, 2013 at 06:38 PM.


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  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    But doesn't that work in your favor? No demand and they sit empty, and those evil bastards that would build a horse slaughter plant have wasted their money.

    I have never figured out why the anti-slaughter factions aren't spending their resources on making sure the end user is well aware of the possible risks; why not think outside of the box and stop it from the other end of the chain? Again, no demand, no plants running.
    They are. Where ya' been?


    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    And things have changed, as I said; you don't think that if those issues had occured today with the amount of people with access to the internet it might have been different? As I pointed out previously, look at the downer cow situation: I'm sure that had been happening for years, but with the internet and the spread of information it became a national story that forced changes.

    And you don't think the suggestion of more jobs will affect how polititians will vote on this? Really?
    When do you think the US plants closed?
    They only closed a few years ago, plenty if internet and much of the 'fight' was fought online.

    Do you know how many jobs a slaughter plants creates?
    I'm gonna' guess not.
    Last edited by Angela Freda; Mar. 3, 2013 at 07:42 PM.


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  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    But doesn't that work in your favor? No demand and they sit empty, and those evil bastards that would build a horse slaughter plant have wasted their money.

    I have never figured out why the anti-slaughter factions aren't spending their resources on making sure the end user is well aware of the possible risks; why not think outside of the box and stop it from the other end of the chain? Again, no demand, no plants running.
    Oh, but they are doing just that.
    The very illustrious president of the HSUS went on several jetsetting trips all over, to "coordinate" animal rights groups for an international effort to further their agenda of eliminating all uses of animals.
    One of those efforts was to try to launch their propaganda efforts against all kinds of meats, of course, including horse meat, with all kinds of possible propaganda against meat, they are vegans, you know, in all ways that can be presented.



  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    You would not expect anyone to answer that one?
    That is proprietary information.
    There are markets out there for all kinds of things.

    See, you keep repeating those myths about hormones and antibiotics, no matter how many times that has been explained.
    It is not about hormones and ABs.. as has been noted repeatedly, with links to articles in the NEWS in which authorities in the nations where the end product is consumed.. it's about EU banned medications being in the meat that was in the container at the store for the buyer to buy.
    It's not some fluffheaded waitress... it's the EU and authorities in France, the UK and other locations.

    That's what I don't get, how you keep pretending that the issues don't exist and attributing it to 'propaganda' and RaRas... when the issues clearly exist and it's clearly not 'propaganda' or RaRas

    'There is so much misinformation being repeated out there by those with certain agendas, no wonder people don't know what to believe any more.'
    Clearly.


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  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    They are. Where ya' been?
    Right here, with relatives in much of Europe. And apparently they aren't doing very well at getting the info out, otherwise why would the issue with drugs in horse meat just now, with the current uproar, become common knowledge there?



  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Oh, but they are doing just that.
    The very illustrious president of the HSUS went on several jetsetting trips all over, to "coordinate" animal rights groups for an international effort to further their agenda of eliminating all uses of animals.
    One of those efforts was to try to launch their propaganda efforts against all kinds of meats, of course, including horse meat, with all kinds of possible propaganda against meat, they are vegans, you know, in all ways that can be presented.
    Well, they suck at it then! I have relatives across Europe, and they were recently shocked when this hit the news and that I was correct in informing them that it wasn't all wild horses in those packages.



  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    It is not about hormones and ABs.. as has been noted repeatedly, with links to articles in the NEWS in which authorities in the nations where the end product is consumed.. it's about EU banned medications being in the meat that was in the container at the store for the buyer to buy.
    It's not some fluffheaded waitress... it's the EU and authorities in France, the UK and other locations.

    That's what I don't get, how you keep pretending that the issues don't exist and attributing it to 'propaganda' and RaRas... when the issues clearly exist and it's clearly not 'propaganda' or RaRas

    'There is so much misinformation being repeated out there by those with certain agendas, no wonder people don't know what to believe any more.'
    Clearly.
    No, no, I was talking about the myth of hormones and antibiotics in beef, please read what was posted and I quoted and responded to.

    As for residues in horse meat in Europe, very, very few samples were positive and then at a level that was only statistically significant for lab work, would not have been a health concern for anyone.

    Yes, there should not have been any residues there of any kind and the powers that be will see to that and fine those that were responsible for that.

    No one is saying any system is perfect, sorry, don't see where you get that.

    I don't think you will find anyone here that thinks it was ok to sell any meat, horse or dragon meat, when it was not labeled as such.
    That is plain fraud and we already have laws against that.



  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    Well, they suck at it then! I have relatives across Europe, and they were recently shocked when this hit the news and that I was correct in informing them that it wasn't all wild horses in those packages.
    Well, if that was not so, that falls under false advertising, unless those marked as such were truly feral horses?

    We don't know where those horses labeled like that came from, maybe not necessarily from the USA horse market.

    I wonder if they will also now object to the swiss Laughing Cow cheese company, as cows obviously don't laugh like their pretty drawing shows?



  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    Well, they suck at it then! I have relatives across Europe, and they were recently shocked when this hit the news and that I was correct in informing them that it wasn't all wild horses in those packages.
    Oh? So those in Europe don't like getting horsemeat that isn't wild horses like they thought? Tell me, what made them think it was wild horse?
    They don't like learning that it's full of EU banned drugs?
    What made them think it was any cleaner than, say beef? Cause you know beef has ABs and hormones and all kinds of drugs in it...


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  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Well, if that was not so, that falls under false advertising, unless those marked as such were truly feral horses?

    We don't know where those horses labeled like that came from, maybe not necessarily from the USA horse market.
    If it came from other than the US, you know places where the horse is supposed to have a passport, that should be even MORE unsettling!

    If they can't be certain what is/isn't in meat that came with a passport detailing all meds, they really think that EID is accurate and reliable?



  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    If it came from other than the US, you know places where the horse is supposed to have a passport, that should be even MORE unsettling!

    If they can't be certain what is/isn't in meat that came with a passport detailing all meds, they really think that EID is accurate and reliable?
    I have heard that Argentina and Brazil have many feral horses and that they export that meat all over, Australia also, but much less, transport is a bigger expense for them.

    Not that I know what any one european company is buying, of course.



  17. #277
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    They expected it was meat from the mustangs or horses raised for slaughter, not animals that could have been given drugs contraindicated for meat animals. They are not aware of any advertising about American horses possibly having drugs, or any campaigns to make them aware of the risks. It was the current uproar that made them realize that yes, there could be drugs in horsemeat.

    So again, where is the effort to inform "the masses" and reduce demand?

    ETA: I will ask about the common brands there, but it's late there, so will have to be next week.
    Last edited by MoonoverMississippi; Mar. 3, 2013 at 06:57 PM. Reason: Addition



  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    They expected it was meat from the mustangs or horses raised for slaughter, not animals that could have been given drugs contraindicated for meat animals. They are not aware of any advertising about American horses possibly having drugs, or any campaigns to make them aware of the risks. It was the current uproar that made them realize that yes, there could be drugs in horsemeat.

    So again, where is the effort to inform "the masses" and reduce demand?

    ETA: I will ask about the common brands there, but it's late there, so will have to be next week.
    There were/are billboards and a TV show that showed a video from the US.
    I could have it wrong but I remember that it was shown on a Swedish Entertainment Tonight type show?

    The market the show focused on was one that, like your relatives, was under the false impression [who knows why, maybe the packaging?] that it was wild US Mustangs.

    I would assume that the people buying the airtime on TV or billboards would spend their first $$s on sharing the info where the most consumers are, that's what I would do if it was me deciding to do it. But I am not them, so I have no idea where they did it.

    I bet Google knows.

    Indeed. Google.


    “Kassensturz,” a highly rated investigative reporting show concentrating on consumer issues, devoted an entire episode to our global campaign and the evidence discovered in our 2012 investigations. *Kassensturz has a broad reach in Europe and undoubtedly the evidence uncovered in the report came as a shock to their audience and has a far reaching effect. *This exposé, which aired on February 19, 2013, was a culmination of our year-long investigations and was an important and powerful step to not only raising consumer awareness but also promoting permanent change. *

    much more at:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...mr9nOI&ct=clnk

    Link to the actual show:
    http://www.srf.ch/konsum/themen/kons...f-pferdefarmen



  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Well Farifax is also one to regurgitate extermist information he insists is cutting edge and his own proprietary knowledge... until it's shown it 's not, and it's not.

    Like the whole 'this issue right now is not drugs but mislabelling!'



    Really?
    That not what my friends in the UK are saying.
    They're pretty PO'd about the 'mislabelling', but they are REALLY PO'd about the drugs they are now learning were found in that meat.

    The plants in Canada that are using the new bolt haven't released the info about improvements that these facilities and implements have made... again, per Fairfax [shall I find the quote?]



    [note the lack of sources for his 'information']


    He [Fairfax/Maxwell] can think what he wants, and write what he wants, as is popular to say 'he's entitled to his own opinion, not his own facts', but since he never offers a link to any actual information, it's hard to take it for more than what it appears to be, regurgitation, his opinion and something he heard someone say once somewhere.
    Read the articles. It is an issue of TRUST as the major disconnect. The plant in Mexico that closed down..you remember where the anti slaughter groups all held hands and congratulated each other...it was done without knowledge of the French Vet association or the Department that oversee's meat and foot imports. Everyone on Coth who has a reputation of anti slaughter ALL stated it was due to contamination, drugs and no passports...bute... truckers claimed they would never be able to haul again..New Holland suspended ALL auctions..everyone cheered...close down those b tards ..evil killers. Then the truth came out...Angela...I think you were the one or at least one of them who claimed I was lying and inventing my contacts...oh oh...then y'all went silent and off the boards. Business as usual following Monday...ONLY plant closed was Mexico...AND that was due to a LABELING problem. That was sorted out within 10 days and that plant was right back at the business on hand.

    Your ongoing claims I never provide links is now silly. I have, I do..and if I don't know..I will state I have no proof. Read other posts., You, on the other hand provide links to 15 year old studies and having, buy your own admission NEVER put a foot in the slaughter plants for any reason..restate what has been said by the anti groups over the years.That than just say I never provide links...please show me on this thread where I have not and you would like to have the basis of the information I have printed I have just looked and I don't see any requests orther than the same old ones I have already answered.

    Your problem is you don't like the information I provide...if you don't agree with it...then you refuse to acknowledge it. There you have the rest of the story



  20. #280
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    These are good for a start:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    The Canadian study is supposed to be in print by May. It has been conducted over a period of 5 or more years. It has been government paid for through a Vet University.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Please quote or direct me to your sources for that statement

    Much has changed over the past few years.

    New plants will be able to meet new standards.

    There is a new type of gun now in the final rounds of testing. I have been told it should be ready to go by October of this year.


    Nothing is ever 100%. Even a vet euthanizing a horse, or a pet can go wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Trust in food production plummets amid horsemeat scandal
    It’s being described as among the biggest commercial frauds ever uncovered. And earlier this week the horsemeat scandal ended up hitting Swiss consumers too. After initially denying it had any affected products, the Swiss supermarket chain Coop ended up pulling lasagna off its shelves. There’s a health risk, lack of transparency, but above all, now, there’s a lack of trust. WRS’ Lucas Chambers reports:

    This is reported by the WRS (World Radio Switzerland)..over here we call it the equivalent to the National Enquirer..radio style

    Switzerland is the home of the Rara's for Europe. I always find their indignation unique...they do eat horse meat...it was found listed as beef...but NONE has been tested as unsafe...I can't find any reports stating drugs were discovered...but again...this coming from THE COUNTRY that invented secrecy and fought against the U.S. over having to disclose numbered bank accounts...(they sure hid a lot of WWII stolen money)

    Horses BRED for slaughter? in Canada and the U.S. ? They did take pictures of the feedlots which have the horses to comply with the passport 6 month demand but those are NOT breeding farms...Switaerland was either second or third on Wayne Paceles European trip.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    According to the Canadian buyers only 10% test positive for bute. There will be a new test introduced in April that will be able to give a positive. They are also stating that there is evidence that horses that previously tested positive do NOT give the same test as low as 120 days after
    links? Particularly for your claims in bold


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