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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Do you know if Frank Carper or his son David ever paid their fine for the popsicle horses?
    I don't understand why these fines go uncollected.

    Franks business is booming these days... I assume Bakers is doing well also.

    So why do those fines go uncollected, particularly in light of the pro-slaughter folks swearing that if new plants are started in the US, enforcement WILL happen....
    Given how much the government needs money I don't know why these fines go uncollected. One of these fine gents owes $172,000. But just let one of us short the IRS by $100; they'll track us down and hound us for the rest of our life.
    "The captive bolt is not a proper tool for slaughter of equids they regain consciousness 30 seconds after being struck fully aware they are being vivisected." Dr Friedlander DVM & frmr Chief USDA Insp


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  2. #182
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    If people were food - they probably wouldn't like us to have our Tylenol either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    It is bad for people, why do we give it to horses?



  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    If people were food - they probably wouldn't like us to have our Tylenol either.
    You are right that people poison themselves all the time, knowingly also, with all kinds of medications, alcohol, illegal drugs, you name it, who cares?

    Most times, we have evolved to take in many poisons and eventually eliminate them, with little or no damage.

    The trouble here is not that whatever is in any we eat is or not bad or how bad for you, most residues are harmless in the amounts we may get thru our food.
    Example, there are 1000x more hormones in soy than in any meat we may eat, considering that meats also naturally have those hormones in them.

    BUT, when someone is putting something in what we eat, legal or not, harmful or not and it is not on the label, or worse, is cheating by not being what it is advertised, then that crosses the line to being unacceptable.

    Most medications and supplements horse get are the same humans get and pass thru the horses just as they do thru humans.
    Even bute, that one study was taken out of context for political reasons, is only harmful if you get enough over long periods, something that would not happen just from eating horse meat.
    Regardless of that, if the powers that be, for whatever reason they fancy, want to make certain substances off limits, then that is what the law is and those producing that meat will find ways to comply with those regulations.

    Using that as a cry to ban slaughter, well, we just need to have a more educated voter, I think.



  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    If people were food - they probably wouldn't like us to have our Tylenol either.
    Visions of Soylent Green floating in my head



  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    If people were food - they probably wouldn't like us to have our Tylenol either.
    No.
    you are deliberately sidestepping the point:

    The quote was 'if it's bad for people it should not be in pet food'
    Yet, we insist on giving our horses Bute, a known carcinogenic.

    It has nothing to do whether we eat people or not.
    If we think it's bad for people to ingest it, why feed it to the animal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    then why do we insist on giving Bute to horses?
    I guess because it works? I don't know...maybe banamine works as well or better. It's cheap, that's for sure. I'd love to use Equioxx but it's too expensive and my vet won't prescribe Previcox.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    No.
    you are deliberately sidestepping the point:

    The quote was 'if it's bad for people it should not be in pet food'
    Yet, we insist on giving our horses Bute, a known carcinogenic.

    It has nothing to do whether we eat people or not.
    If we think it's bad for people to ingest it, why feed it to the animal.
    Carcinogens don't necessarily affect humans they way they do other species. If all drugs affected all animals equally, we'd have no need for human testing of drugs. We could go straight from animal testing to the market.

    Bluey, I doubt the restriction on bute is political. It's not approved for any animal intended for human consumption, not just horses.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    It has nothing to do whether we eat people or not.
    If we think it's bad for people to ingest it, why feed it to the animal.
    It's my understanding that it should never be given to a horse for extended periods of time. A gram here or there is okay, but its not advised to feed it on a regular basis.

    That being said, I would be really interested in learning what the Bute patterns were for the horse carcasses that tested positive for traces of Bute.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    On just about every thread about slaughter in this forum suggestions for alternatives have been put out there. Perhaps you have forgotten this?

    What amazes me about the pro-slaughter group is their lack of willingness to admit there are alternatives.
    I guess I have missed them

    Will you please list ten that will "cure" the excess inventory by even 150,000 in one year and NOT cost the tax payer money.

    The tax payer does pay for government inspectors but the industry from truckers to slaughter plants pay taxes, state taxes, gasoline taxes, etc.

    One point made quite some time ago was interesting. It claimed HSUS and its groups want the tax payer to be stuck with major bills. As times are tough they (taxpayers) wqill scream for an end of ALL horse breeding OR at the very best...very high taxes with a forever clause where the breeder must support the horses they bred. They know this will destroy the industry. According to employment stats in the U.S. the equine industry is one of the top FIVE employers of individuals with less than grade 9 speaks volumes. It is, also one of the highest employers of ethnic groups with limited english speaking abilities. Restaurants (dishwashers) listed as number one)

    Donating horses to cat sanctuaries is a great suggestion....but for those with no money..it is not possible.

    What were the others again...?? Thanks



  10. #190
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    Actually that is the point. We already knowingly and unknowingly poison ourselves. Unless as you said in an earlier post you buy "real" food - you don't quite actually know what's in it. Have you read an ingredient's list on anything lately?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    No.
    you are deliberately sidestepping the point:

    The quote was 'if it's bad for people it should not be in pet food'
    Yet, we insist on giving our horses Bute, a known carcinogenic.

    It has nothing to do whether we eat people or not.
    If we think it's bad for people to ingest it, why feed it to the animal.



  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    It's my understanding that it should never be given to a horse for extended periods of time. A gram here or there is okay, but its not advised to feed it on a regular basis.

    That being said, I would be really interested in learning what the Bute patterns were for the horse carcasses that tested positive for traces of Bute.
    The Canadian study is supposed to be in print by May. It has been conducted over a period of 5 or more years. It has been government paid for through a Vet University.



  12. #192
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    I disagree that slaughter is a "cure" for excess inventory.
    Slaughter provides a decent a market for the excess inventory - re: crappy breeding. Slaughter would seem to only encourage more experimentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I guess I have missed them

    Will you please list ten that will "cure" the excess inventory by even 150,000 in one year and NOT cost the tax payer money.

    The tax payer does pay for government inspectors but the industry from truckers to slaughter plants pay taxes, state taxes, gasoline taxes, etc.

    One point made quite some time ago was interesting. It claimed HSUS and its groups want the tax payer to be stuck with major bills. As times are tough they (taxpayers) wqill scream for an end of ALL horse breeding OR at the very best...very high taxes with a forever clause where the breeder must support the horses they bred. They know this will destroy the industry. According to employment stats in the U.S. the equine industry is one of the top FIVE employers of individuals with less than grade 9 speaks volumes. It is, also one of the highest employers of ethnic groups with limited english speaking abilities. Restaurants (dishwashers) listed as number one)

    Donating horses to cat sanctuaries is a great suggestion....but for those with no money..it is not possible.

    What were the others again...?? Thanks


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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Carcinogens don't necessarily affect humans they way they do other species. If all drugs affected all animals equally, we'd have no need for human testing of drugs. We could go straight from animal testing to the market.

    Bluey, I doubt the restriction on bute is political. It's not approved for any animal intended for human consumption, not just horses.
    I meant the study and how the results were read was for political use, driven by animal rights interests, as one more reason to stop any use of animals, interfering in any and all places they can.

    Just as the one against cattle in 2006 was, just for that one international meeting, that now everyone else with an agenda uses, when it was on later accounts found to be way off, not at all accurate.

    Yes, some with agendas take one abuse case, one misinterpreted study and run with them, yelling loudly with their money in the right places, to get whatever they are after.

    That was what I was bringing up.



  14. #194
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    Bluey, if the ban on bute was political, why not a ban on banamine? That makes no sense.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  15. #195
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    The ban on bute comes from Europe. There was an article I believe by an Irish vet saying there was proof that bute caused aplastic anemia in children.



  16. #196
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    The burden of proof that horse slaughter can be done humanely is on the pro-slaughter folks, no one else. I have yet to see any evidence that it can be done. From farm to plate. Some one needs to prove it to me. Show me.

    Plenty of evidence that it's bad. Nary a one that it's sufficient.

    And Bluey please stop calling horse a natural resource (I can't even count how many times you've used it in your propaganda spiel), they are not. The definition of "natural" resource is a usable resource garnered from the environment virtually undisturbed by mankind. A renewable "natural" resource can regenerate, great example in my area are trees and deer.

    Since I've worked with real natural resources most of my life it makes me crazy to see phrase used completely out of context. I digress.


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  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    The burden of proof that horse slaughter can be done humanely is on the pro-slaughter folks, no one else. I have yet to see any evidence that it can be done. From farm to plate. Some one needs to prove it to me. Show me.

    Plenty of evidence that it's bad. Nary a one that it's sufficient.

    And Bluey please stop calling horse a natural resource (I can't even count how many times you've used it in your propaganda spiel), they are not. The definition of "natural" resource is a usable resource garnered from the environment virtually undisturbed by mankind. A renewable "natural" resource can regenerate, great example in my area are trees and deer.

    Since I've worked with real natural resources most of my life it makes me crazy to see phrase used completely out of context. I digress.


    so horses are un-natural?

    Let me see...
    carbon based life form - check
    can be reproduced, hence renewable - check
    found in the wild - well, I give that a half a check
    eats plant matter - check
    can reproduce without human interference - check and check

    I am sorry, but you want to ban, that means you have to prove your point.
    you want the change and infringe on people's rights, I don't think the rest of the world should have to do your work for you.


    Oh, that is right.
    Proof has been brought that
    the process can be made humane
    and that the incidents that made headlines are either propaganda or matters of criminal conduct.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post


    so horses are un-natural?

    Let me see...
    carbon based life form - check
    can be reproduced, hence renewable - check
    found in the wild - well, I give that a half a check
    eats plant matter - check
    can reproduce without human interference - check and check

    I am sorry, but you want to ban, that means you have to prove your point.
    you want the change and infringe on people's rights, I don't think the rest of the world should have to do your work for you.


    Oh, that is right.
    Proof has been brought that
    the process can be made humane
    and that the incidents that made headlines are either propaganda or matters of criminal conduct.
    That.
    Saved me some typing, said better than I can too, thanks.


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  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    The burden of proof that horse slaughter can be done humanely is on the pro-slaughter folks, no one else.
    Slaughter - killing - butchering. Blood and guts. Prove what, that you sensitivities won't get bruised? Get real. The horse ends up dead, that is the end of the story.



  20. #200
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    There are worse things than dead.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



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