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  1. #141
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    Many issues have been addressed.

    Kill floor workers tend to be of European origin (for beef, equine...pork)

    I did address the issue when several of the workers at the Fort told me animals have no soul therefore it didn't matter. These workers were (pull in your fangs people) identified, when asked, as Catholic.

    This did NOT mean that all the workers did not care..but it was of a concern. They went to meetings and it was explained that the plant did not want to cause any pain or stress if at all possible. Therefore, tapes would be reviewed daily and incentive bonuses would be paid weekly IF all procedures were followed. That was implemented 2009 and it is now a standard procedure. It is interesting that new workers are now instructed to keep the horses calm...don't yell..

    The culture of a plant can be changed. The infrastructure has been changed with higher chute runs. Also, it is now easier to stabalize the head so the horse does not shift at a last minute.

    Profit is the motive for the plant. The margins are good (another poster said no martins therefore bad treatment) This is just not so. There is good money in export.

    The issue is NOT drugs right now. It is mislabelling.

    Canada currently has a better passport system than Europe does. And with the new test for substances and a follow up....the E.U. will be sending reps over this spring. They have inspected three plants in Canada and they have stated they have NO concerns

    Therefore there is NO reason why the same can not occur in the U.S.

    As I volunteered my Wednesdays for a few years, to observe and make a difference, perhaps those who oppose can also go, observe and make changes.



  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by andylover View Post
    If the majority of the population is against horse slaughter, as they are of the rounding up and put in holding pens hundreds of wild mustangs and petition upon petition has been submitted to both county, state and federal gov'ts, why is it still being pushed through? My next question is if a reason posted for by pro-slaughter groups is getting rid of excess animals and animals that are starving, why is just horses that are targeted?
    Keeping horses alive and healthy is pretty darned expensive. It is pretty wet in NJ right now and let me tell you horses cause a LOT of damage to land. And it ain't like there are thousands of wild cats preying on them keeping the wild population in check.

    Simple facts that the 'majority' may have no real concept of. What petitions against that are put forth are likely filled with masses of folks who have never had to keep a horse and have NO IDEA what they really cost, and how much 'open land' would be required to support them.

    Much like the anti-carriage people, they whip up fury, frenzy, and ignorance into a 'force' that opposes what they don't even understand.


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  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Keeping horses alive and healthy is pretty darned expensive. It is pretty wet in NJ right now and let me tell you horses cause a LOT of damage to land. And it ain't like there are thousands of wild cats preying on them keeping the wild population in check.

    Simple facts that the 'majority' may have no real concept of. What petitions against that are put forth are likely filled with masses of folks who have never had to keep a horse and have NO IDEA what they really cost, and how much 'open land' would be required to support them.

    Much like the anti-carriage people, they whip up fury, frenzy, and ignorance into a 'force' that opposes what they don't even understand.
    Quite so. But by the same token, I have a hard time understanding horse people who purport to care about these animals, yet argue vigorously in favor of actually promoting a resurgence of a fringe industry that only serves to perpetuate a marginal living for the lowest, dirt-bag dealers and auctions, while actually promoting overbreeding and owner irresponsibility. I see no benefit to horses in this picture, anywhere.


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  4. #144
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    Nov. 15, 2005
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    NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post

    The issue is NOT drugs right now. It is mislabelling.
    It isn't?
    Tell the French and British authorities that:

    French Agriculture Minister Stéphane Le Foll made an exception recently when addressing reporters at the Paris farm show...

    “One would have to eat 500 horse burgers every day in order to run a risk,” Le Foll stated. He borrowed the line from U.K. Chief Medical Officer Dame Sally Davies, who used it just weeks ago to downplay the hazards of eating horse meat adulterated with phenylbutazone during what has turned out to be a massive international food scandal with people in the U.K. being unwittingly subjected to equine flesh.

    - See more at: http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee....lxFQoQfC.dpuf

    I can't see why they would be making statements like this and putting out a fire that doesn't exist....



  5. #145
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    Nov. 15, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Inj fact on a couple of those trips is when Baker was fined due to the driver continuing to drive thru 3 states after knowing that 2 horses were down in the trailer. He never stopped, and they were trampled to death. That fine (over 165k,) is still unpaid, and he never had his operations suspended. THAT's how well, we in the US enforce hunmane transport laws/slaughter abuse laws. Nothing has changed since then that would result in more stringent oversight.
    Do you know if Frank Carper or his son David ever paid their fine for the popsicle horses?
    I don't understand why these fines go uncollected.

    Franks business is booming these days... I assume Bakers is doing well also.

    So why do those fines go uncollected, particularly in light of the pro-slaughter folks swearing that if new plants are started in the US, enforcement WILL happen....



  6. #146
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    I am anti-slaughter with regards to horses out of principle. I realize the fact that I eat other meat makes me a hypocrite and I am fine with that. It would be so easy to design a squeeze chute that not only relaxed a horse but also kept it from moving his head which is the main cause of missed/inadequate stunning. It would take a few minutes to do it this way and we all know time is money, which is why the plants resist this method. Until they take those steps and those extra minutes I will lobby against it.


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  7. #147
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    Apr. 3, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Quite so. But by the same token, I have a hard time understanding horse people who purport to care about these animals, yet argue vigorously in favor of actually promoting a resurgence of a fringe industry that only serves to perpetuate a marginal living for the lowest, dirt-bag dealers and auctions, while actually promoting overbreeding and owner irresponsibility. I see no benefit to horses in this picture, anywhere.
    Truth.



  8. #148
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Quite so. But by the same token, I have a hard time understanding horse people who purport to care about these animals, yet argue vigorously in favor of actually promoting a resurgence of a fringe industry that only serves to perpetuate a marginal living for the lowest, dirt-bag dealers and auctions, while actually promoting overbreeding and owner irresponsibility. I see no benefit to horses in this picture, anywhere.
    That may be because your understanding is faulty, cause and effect there not as you are assuming.

    1 - Breeders are going to breed for many reasons, very few to none in the USA because they can sell to slaughter.

    2 - Traders will trade horses, if there is slaughter or not.
    That is how the lower levels of the horse industry work, is how many horse owners get and use and enjoy horses and why would anyone object to that?
    Elitist to think only rich people with fancy horses should be part of the horse world.

    Slaughter is inherently indifferent to all of that.
    Slaughter is but one more way to use SOME horse as the natural, renewable resource horses have been for humans once dead.
    It has been so since we first scavenged the first horse carcass we came across millennia ago.

    Just give that some thought, quit letting the anti-slaughter propaganda animal rights extremists keep pumping out muddle your thinking.

    I think it is utterly senseless to ban a perfectly good process on the whim of some animal rights extremists.

    Lets rise above such foolhardly world views.
    Lets understand where all of us fit in this world.
    Lets admit that yes, humans have evolved as omnivorous animals.
    Lets recognize that eating horse or not is up to the individual.
    Lets help protect the rights of each one of us to eat what we choose.
    We don't live in a dictatorship and we need to insure we don't become one.

    Now, before someone jumps in with the well worn abuse card, remember there is an important difference between animal rights extremist and their vegan world view they are trying to impose on all and true, honest animal welfare, that means working for sensible and humane ways to do all we do with our animals.

    As long as we are letting animal rights extremists keep mixing both in the gullible minds of so many and so dividing us, as the post quoted above reflects, we will keep losing ground in our rights to use animals, until we lose them altogether.

    Remember, "One generation and no more domestic animals and none too soon for me" was not an idle comment, but reflects a philosophy that is behind all animal rights extremists are working for.

    Better pick your side with care.



  9. #149
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    Oct. 14, 2010
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    What does American society (us) do with tens of thousands of unwanted animals?

    Congress can't agree is no different than two groups of horse lovers solutions. Look at the world we have created for our cherished horse - the worst of BOTH worlds - long hauls to slaughter and starvation at home. Is that what we all want for unwanted horses? Two horrific extremes?

    There is no magic regulatory board to fix this. It's up to US, horse owners and lovers.

    How much should your opinion really count if you do not work to solve this regularly and know it really well? Do you really know about the problem? Or does your opinion come from a few anecdotes and experiences and is a limited perspective. How would your opinion change if you roll up your sleeves and get involved at the local, state or national level to see what the problem really is -- instead of what you imagine or fear? Do you fear slaughter more or fear slow starvation/abuse more?

    Many of us cannot stand our feelings about slaughter and are more comfortable with the current situation of starvation and abuse and no options for horse owners unable to pay for care. Or we are so enraged at idiot owners that buy without thinking and later don't want the horse. We express our feelings OUT away from actually working to address the problem.

    Punishing does not work. Actively, humanely managing the unwanted horse epidermic works.

    There is a lot of misery, starvation and abuse of tens of thousands of animals stuck with owners who have no idea how to care for them, financially cannot care for them, abuse them out of ignorance or cruelty or mental illness. And have no way to sell the animal.

    These are very expensive creatures that weigh 1200 pounds and require a great deal of resources that most Americans do not have. They are luxuries.

    Think of the resources required for a boarded horse:
    - an assisted living facility for animals (like we do for our day care kids and elderly or disabled adults)

    -professionals to doctor and farrier the horses

    -feed and clothing

    - or facilities at home to house the horses - but still require food and water and daily care

    Is slow death preferred to what a group of horse owners can come up? There are many active organizations across the US working to address the humane care for horses without homes.

    It is easy to express ourselves on the internet about how we FEEL -- how many of us are in the trenches? When the gap between these two groups is this great, a noisy many on the internet can block those out in the trenches actually dealing with the problem on the day to day level.

    Do we continue to spout off here and do nothing? Or do we become more educated about the problems and solutions - getting away from our keyboards and our static view of the world and rigid opinions about what the solution is.

    It is up to us - horse owners and lovers. Let's be better than Congress.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Quite so. But by the same token, I have a hard time understanding horse people who purport to care about these animals, yet argue vigorously in favor of actually promoting a resurgence of a fringe industry that only serves to perpetuate a marginal living for the lowest, dirt-bag dealers and auctions, while actually promoting overbreeding and owner irresponsibility. I see no benefit to horses in this picture, anywhere.
    Because just about every week there is ANOTHER story of some nutter whose got 150 near starved to death horses on the back 40. Not to mention the tens of thousands of mustangs that are sitting around eating up $$ for no bloody good reason at all.... Far better to fatten and slaughter the starved horses than to spend much, much MUCH more $ and resources making up for the neglect of neglectful idiots.

    I do not think it is better to just round up the mustangs in pens and leave them there until they die. That's just the dumbest of all dumb solutions.


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  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Because just about every week there is ANOTHER story of some nutter whose got 150 near starved to death horses on the back 40. Not to mention the tens of thousands of mustangs that are sitting around eating up $$ for no bloody good reason at all.... Far better to fatten and slaughter the starved horses than to spend much, much MUCH more $ and resources making up for the neglect of neglectful idiots.

    I do not think it is better to just round up the mustangs in pens and leave them there until they die. That's just the dumbest of all dumb solutions.
    Yes, that too, I agree.


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  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    These workers were (pull in your fangs people) identified, when asked, as Catholic..

    so the real reason the Pope resigned comes out finally


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  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post

    I do not think it is better to just round up the mustangs in pens and leave them there until they die. That's just the dumbest of all dumb solutions.

    humm, most of those 40,000 mustangs are on pasture in Oklahoma or nearby states



  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by clanter View Post
    humm, most of those 40,000 mustangs are on pasture in Oklahoma or nearby states
    Some.
    I read there were some in feedlots, one in NE with 4000 of them.

    I think the BLM has been stacking them up here and there, some went to pastures, Mrs Pickens wanted to house some for a wildlife park, with government and non-profit money, but has not found land for that yet, last I heard.
    We are in a record breaking drought, so wherever they are, they better feed them all along for now.


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  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I did address the issue when several of the workers at the Fort told me animals have no soul therefore it didn't matter. These workers were (pull in your fangs people) identified, when asked, as Catholic.
    Was this before or after your Ted Bundy interview?



  16. #156
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    Ted Bundy was charming and delightful and very knowledgeable
    He was, what you try to be

    Ted Bundy was deadly
    He was, what you think you are with your written words

    What amazes me about the non slaughter group is their lack of alternatives

    Those who enjoy posting their sarcasm against those who actually try and do something, while they only sit at their computer.

    You wouldn't even make a long distance call, ...to check out with Dean...

    against what you claimed I was "lying" about...but then...when Amber confirmed you once again went silent.

    Aber...do you ever do anything for anyone or any animal where you spend more than your self proclaimed wit?

    Try making a difference ..even those who are jaded claim it alters their view on life, and others.



  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post

    What amazes me about the non slaughter group is their lack of alternatives
    .

    you can donate a horse to large cat sanctuary

    http://www.bigcat.org/index.php


    3 members found this post helpful.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Ted Bundy was charming and delightful and very knowledgeable
    He was, what you try to be

    Ted Bundy was deadly
    He was, what you think you are with your written words
    Pants getting a little warm? Must be, otherwise I might think you don't like me.

    <sniff>



  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by clanter View Post
    you can donate a horse to large cat sanctuary

    http://www.bigcat.org/index.php
    yes, or to a hunt

    but omg, guess what, they are still killed with a shot to the heat and cut into little pieces...

    yes, it's still the same, except the end user is not human. Otherwise it is the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Because just about every week there is ANOTHER story of some nutter whose got 150 near starved to death horses on the back 40. Not to mention the tens of thousands of mustangs that are sitting around eating up $$ for no bloody good reason at all.... Far better to fatten and slaughter the starved horses than to spend much, much MUCH more $ and resources making up for the neglect of neglectful idiots.

    I do not think it is better to just round up the mustangs in pens and leave them there until they die. That's just the dumbest of all dumb solutions.
    Slaughter does not solve neglect/starvation issues. There are still over 100,000 US horses going to slaughter. KB only buy the number of horses that there is a demand for. They are not buying skinny, old lame horses. The mentality of those that starve horses is warped. Again...the largest horse neglect case in TX happened when Dallas Crowne and Beltex was open and the ranch was within 20 min of them. It was owned by a VET. KB's also have dumped over 5000 horses in the desert to starve after they were rejected at the border. They have caused more abuse/neglect than those that legitimately cannot afford food/euth.

    Having an export fee on horses and requiring breeder license fees, where the money would be divided among State Vet offices to be used for hay banks, gelding clinics, euth clinics would give those that need help, the resources to get it.

    Most of the people starving horses mentally, don't believe they are neglecting horses. Look at the TB breeder that used to be on here, that starved a bunch of mares, or coloredcowhorse who neglected her horses (twice), and others who have multiple convictions. Slaughter has nothing to do with it. There was an auction pretty close to coloredcowhorses, and she never ran them thru there. Bullets are cheap, as is composting. Yet those people would never do that.



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