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  1. #41
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    The foal was not genetically black. It is simply not possible considering the mare's agouti status. She CANNOT produce a black foal.

    I have no idea how color develops in utero, though, and perhaps the foal would have appeared to be some version of bay or brown if it had been carried to term. Or perhaps the color would have developed in the first shed. But the foal would have been bay or brown if it had lived.

    If you would like more information about what version of agouti your mare carries, you can send hair in to Pet DNA for their seal brown test. No one else tests for seal brown. That test will only elucidate if your mare is AA or carries At. Seal brown is the very dark--nearly black--version of "bay" with some lighter points at the muzzle, ears, flank and behind the elbow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_brown_%28horse%29


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  2. #42
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  3. #43
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    I'm definitely not arguing with the genetics of the black foal or the results of the mare's agouti test. Several others have mentioned he may have appeared more bay, albiet very dark bay, at full term.



  4. #44
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    "Very dark bay" certainly *suggests* at least one seal brown allele, although it's really impossible to say since the foal was stillborn and was not tested.

    Although, really, it's very academic at this point. You mare will produce either a chestnut or some version of bay or brown bred to the stallion you've selected. Nailing down A versus At only gives you a more precise idea of what sort of COLOR of bay or brown you're going to get.

    This is how it breaks down:

    If she is AA (straight bay): 50% bay, 50% chestnut
    If she is AAt (one bay, one seal brown): 25% bay, 25% brown, 50% chestnut
    If she is AtAt (both seal brown): 50% seal brown, 50% chestnut


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  5. #45
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    So interesting! Thank you Simkie! Color really is irrelevant but it is fun to speculate A happy, healthy foal is the most important thing for sure.



  6. #46
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    Hopefully you color expert can do one more for me. What color would I probably get?...

    Sire is black (negro) and he is also from a black Sire (Ferro)

    The dam is a bay by Sir Sinclair (I believe Sir Sinclair does not produce chestnuts) and the dam of the dam is black by Haarlem. (Haarlem is also black) It sounds like I have a good change of a black foal correct?.. Thanks for any opinions



  7. #47
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    If the sire was black, the mare being AA means the foal could not have been black. Because a brown foal, particularly one who is going to end up a very very dark brown, can easily look black when dried off (and will often look MORE black than a foal who's going to be black), he had no choice but to be brown - a very dark one at that.

    Pet DNA is the only one who who tests for brown, and the Agouti test is all they do for horses. If you really want to know her brown status (we now know she's got at least 1 brown) that's where you'd have to send her hair.

    It is unlikely there is any (significant) effect on color in utero. Placement of markings, yes, though even then it won't go from body to leg or vice versa. But color is genetically determined, though I suppose it's possible for a slight shade modification to be made.
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  8. #48
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    A lot of brown horses look black except for a brown muzzle. And I thought true black horses were born a mousey gray color and not actually black anyway, unless they're going to turn gray.



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardC View Post
    Hopefully you color expert can do one more for me. What color would I probably get?...

    Sire is black (negro) and he is also from a black Sire (Ferro)
    Since his dam was chestnut, we know he's Ee

    The dam is a bay by Sir Sinclair (I believe Sir Sinclair does not produce chestnuts) and the dam of the dam is black by Haarlem. (Haarlem is also black) It sounds like I have a good change of a black foal correct?.. Thanks for any opinions
    Is Haarlem homozygous black? Assuming it's the Haarlem by Voltaire, both parents were brown, so we can't tell from that

    Because of the important unknowns, all you know at this point is chestnut, bay, brown or black are all possibilities.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    A lot of brown horses look black except for a brown muzzle. And I thought true black horses were born a mousey gray color and not actually black anyway, unless they're going to turn gray.
    Yes, and the very dark brown ones are often darker at birth than the black ones who are indeed usually a silvery/grayish color
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Yes, and the very dark brown ones are often darker at birth than the black ones who are indeed usually a silvery/grayish color
    Wow This is a fantastic revelation! I now must agree the stillborn colt was probably very dark bay or brown and we just assumed he was black.

    I so love the COTH forums for education!!



  12. #52
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    "very dark bay" IS brown
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardC View Post
    Hopefully you color expert can do one more for me. What color would I probably get?...

    Sire is black (negro) and he is also from a black Sire (Ferro)

    The dam is a bay by Sir Sinclair (I believe Sir Sinclair does not produce chestnuts) and the dam of the dam is black by Haarlem. (Haarlem is also black) It sounds like I have a good change of a black foal correct?.. Thanks for any opinions
    Your chance of getting a black foal is totally dependent on the agouti status of the dam, much like the OP in this thread. If your mare is AA (or any other versions of agouti, like seal brown) then you have a 0% chance of a black foal. If she is heterozygous for agouti, then 50% of the black based foals she produces will be black and 50% will be bay or brown of some sort. She has at least one agouti allele since she is bay.

    How the possibilities of red-based or black-based break out depend on her extension (black/red) status. If she carries red, then see the previous posts on this thread about percentages. If she does not carry red, then she cannot produce anything red-based and will only produce black (if not homozygous for agouti) or bay of some sort.

    Has she been bred before? If so, what were the colors of the sires and the resulting foals?



  14. #54
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    Simkie/JB......just for fun and because y'all are so incredible with this confusing data, would we ever be able to achieve a grey from our AA chestnut mare with the right stallion?

    And, a mare from the OP mare is bay (Royal Prince is her sire). I think I know the answer...
    we should have her tested as well just to know what her color genetics are, right?



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by eggbutt View Post
    Simkie/JB......just for fun and because y'all are so incredible with this confusing data, would we ever be able to achieve a grey from our AA chestnut mare with the right stallion?
    Sure. Breed her to a homozygous grey stallion--a stallion with two copies of the grey gene. You would be guaranteed a grey. If you breed her to a heterozygous grey stallion (one copy of grey) you have a 50/50 shot. This holds true for any color mare (well, except grey--if the mare contributes a grey gene, the odds go up), since grey covers all.

    Quote Originally Posted by eggbutt View Post
    And, a mare from the OP mare is bay (Royal Prince is her sire). I think I know the answer...
    we should have her tested as well just to know what her color genetics are, right?
    You may be able to suss out some of it from the pedigree, but yes, if you would like to nail down what color foals she has the potential to produce, you would likely need to test her.


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  16. #56
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    OK, I have one to figure out...

    Chestnut mare by Davignon (bay) out of chestnut mare

    When bred to chestnut has only produced chestnut
    Bred to Rotspon (black) produced black (she looks phenotypically black but may be dark brown. Her muzzle is not lighter though)
    Bred to Rousseau (bay) produced bay

    Now pregnant with Buddenbrock (black) and his sire (Sixtus) was black, not sure of his dam color. I am making an assumption Buddenbrock's dam was not chestnut as there are few Traks that are chestnut.

    I am figuring 50% chestnut, 50% some type brown
    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html



  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blume Farm View Post
    OK, I have one to figure out...

    Chestnut mare by Davignon (bay) out of chestnut mare

    When bred to chestnut has only produced chestnut
    Bred to Rotspon (black) produced black (she looks phenotypically black but may be dark brown. Her muzzle is not lighter though)
    Bred to Rousseau (bay) produced bay

    Now pregnant with Buddenbrock (black) and his sire (Sixtus) was black, not sure of his dam color. I am making an assumption Buddenbrock's dam was not chestnut as there are few Traks that are chestnut.

    I am figuring 50% chestnut, 50% some type brown
    Again, impossible to say for sure without an agouti test on the mare.

    If the "black" foal is actually black, then she is Aa or aa--one agouti gene or no agouti genes.

    Buddenbrock's dam was grey, according to Horse Telex, with a grey sire and a chestnut dam. So no real clues there.

    Buddenbrock is E?aa. Your mare is ee?a.

    Possibilities are black, some version of bay (maybe, dependent on agouti status of mare) or chestnut (maybe, dependent on sire's extension [red] status)

    Has Buddenbrock produced a chestnut foal ever? If yes, then he is Eeaa, and you've got a shot at a red foal.

    ETA: there is at least one chestnut foal by Buddenbrock in Horse Telex. As long as that is correct, he is Eeaa. He can produce a chestnut, and the only question mark is the mare's agouti status. Previous percentage breakdowns in this thread apply.



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