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  1. #41
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    OK SCMD1954 if the horses are "put out to pasture" what will they eat? Who will pay for their veterinary care? Who will pay for their farrier work? Who will pay for the rest of their feed as island grass is usually NOT high in nutrition levels (I live in a coastal area so I know the nutrition content of grass that is grown on limetsone/sand based soils and it is not sufficient nutrition).

    If you put the carriages out of work, you put the owners out of work, owners that will then not be able to put food on their tables let alone feed their forced retirement horses. They will probably feed the horses to their families. I am sure the horse would rather be pulling a carriage and working for a living instead of being on a dinner plate.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
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    Feb. 24, 2013
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    Nassau, Bahamas
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    oh they are well aware of how much it costs to keep horses



  3. #43
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    I'm sure that plenty of them have been on the dinner plate and no doubt the ones working on the street now will end up there too



  4. #44
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    Who is? Are you deliberately being vague?

    Who knows how much it is to keep the horses? The people that will be seizing them?

    Also, that was not my question. My question was WHO WILL PAY?
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCMD1954 View Post
    I am wondering what you think my agenda is?
    Oh, it's become very clear what your agenda is. You want the horses to be freeeee and pooping butterflies in some imaginary world you think exists for horses without a job.

    I'm not even a fan of carriage horses and honey, I think you're smoking something.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCMD1954 View Post
    I'm sure that plenty of them have been on the dinner plate and no doubt the ones working on the street now will end up there too
    I am direct quoting this because I know that when posters are backed into a corner, they go back and edit or make their statement go "poof" and dissapear.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch



  7. #47
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    Feb. 24, 2013
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    Nassau, Bahamas
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    None of you people have seen the conditions of the living and working conditions of the horses. No one is seizing the horses - if you read my previous post about what we have already tried to do for the owners, drivers and horses then you would have got it

    We have already tried to help the owners and drivers - over the past 5 years we have managed to get hay and food in for the horses duty free - we have had an equine vet and dentist and also a farrier to train them on how to shoe their horses.

    We have even tried to have meetings with the drivers to get their points of view about what improvements they think we can make - only one person turned up out of 30.

    Starving the animals and making them work is not an excuse because the owners are poor - If they can't manage to maintain their horses then they should get another job - Just because you are poor does not mean you can inhumanely treat animals - there are no moral rules separating poor people from rich people.

    Just like there is no excuse to go and rob someone because they are poor



  8. #48
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    Feb. 24, 2013
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    I have no intention of deleting any of the posts - I don't feel backed into a corner at all



  9. #49
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    Jun. 7, 2002
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    I think if you were interested in partnering with the surrey industry to find ways to get better care for the horses, you would not be publishing accusations on FB or COTH. You are not going to be effective while you try to paint the industry as abusive.

    If I found out about a group putting up pictures of my horses with a bunch of captions and comments that say things like the horse has a cyst in its mouth (but the video shows nothing to support such a thing) I sure wouldn't come to their meeting either.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns




  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCMD1954 View Post
    No-one is trying to seize the horses - we are simply trying to make a better environment for them - the people that reply to the FB posts are locals who are ashamed of what they see in the surrey horses and also know how they are treated and how they are housed. This is not a new thing - this has been going on for decades - and it doesn't seem to matter if a horse dies cos they just get another one - if they can't afford to feed their horses, how can they afford to buy another - btw they don't come from the race tracks many come from the Amish is Philidelphia
    Yes, we all know how many Amish farms are in Philadelphia.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  11. #51
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    Feb. 24, 2013
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    ok - well I thank you for your kindness and thoughtful consideration on this matter - I'm off to smoke a big fatty and have a beer xo



  12. #52
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    Feb. 24, 2013
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    yes well look it up - Amish , Pennsylvania (capital Philadelphia)



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCMD1954 View Post
    yes well look it up - Amish , Pennsylvania (capital Philadelphia)
    How many farms do you suppose are in Philadelphia?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  14. #54
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    Jun. 21, 2004
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    So do they all come from the Amish or just Amish, (Lancaster) Penn?
    *^*^*^
    Himmlische Traumpferde
    "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"



  15. #55
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    May. 17, 2010
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    Where humidity isn't just a word, it's a way of life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCMD1954 View Post
    because it may come to the point where the horses may need somewhere else to go. We have found horses in the middle of the road because they can't work anymore - they are dumped

    The horse that died in November passed the inspection and was only supposed to work 1 day a week due to a heart condition - the evening before she died the driver was racing her against another horse and was aware of the horses condition.

    Okay,
    Since you state you have made efforts toward education and assistance and state you are not looking for an all-out ban, I am going to give you my impressions in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, you will listen to "an outsider's" impressions.

    Using ONE horse with a heart condition that died in multiple places on your page with no explanation (such as "this horse had a heart condition, we don't object to it being used lightly, but object to the actions of its driver in racing it") suggests you are going for the viceral reaction rather than a considered, thinking one: automatic turn off to a reasonable person and makes one reconsider believing the rest of what you have to say.

    The facebook page is full of "OMG, they are breathing smog and suffering from loud noises this is NO place for horses!!!!!!!" crap.
    As an intelligent horse owner who is in the demographic that you should want to reach, that stuff makes me roll my eyes and slam you in the very same catagory as the lunatics in NY who think that chestnuts are tumors, drooling after a yummy apple is vomiting or a sign of sickness, and the only decent life for a horse is in a pasture full of butterflies and elves with a young princess to lovingly brush it.
    If you object to smog and loud noises, I would presume you also object to police horses and similar uses?

    Your captions on the facebook page also are overdramatic for the pictures; again, instantly makes a reasonable person assume you all are a bit on the melodramatic side and that we should take all you have to say with a grain of salt.

    Honestly, between your attitude here and the OMG stuff on the facebook page you are going to turn off a huge segment of the population that has the $$ and wherewithal to get behind an education and improvement campaign.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #56
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    OK, so I went and checked out the FB page. Is this your FB page? Are you the admin for it?

    If so, then you REALLY do not know horses and you are smoking something. You make statements that are ludicrous.

    "Please zoom in on this horses hoofs. IT HAS NO SHOES with the exception of one that is worn and hanging off it's right front hoof. It kept banging this hoof because the loose shoe was getting stuck in the cracks of the concrete. The horses back right hoof is so worn and split that it looks like it ROTTING! Pictures show a thousand words. This horse was so run down, emaciated and depressed"

    https://www.facebook.com/surreyhorse...type=3&theater


    How about these?

    "This Surrey horse spent his rest time bashing his head against a concrete pillar. It's bit was fastened with thick rope instead of a harness. It looked like it was cutting into it's mouth and horse was rubbing and knocking it's mouth from discomfort or pain."

    https://www.facebook.com/surreyhorse...type=3&theater

    "This is the horse that tried to rub itself RAW against a concrete post.....the bit in it's mouth is TIED WITH THICK ROPE ---- cutting into the horse's mouth! Most harnesses are "pieced together" with bits of string, metal or rope. They don't fit - they're too tight so the horse must endure this torture all day, everyday."
    https://www.facebook.com/surreyhorse...type=3&theater


    Your comments are not the comments of someone that knows horses so I call your bluff.

    I looked at the photos on the FB page, I see thin horses, only one that I saw is one I would call emaciated. I saw some ragged and chipped hooves but nothing overly serious, one hoof photo showed a "dubbed" toe which is done on purpose to speed the breakover of the hoof for a horse that maybe has a problem with stepping on himself with a hind hoof. Not a "neglect" issue.

    Mostly what I saw in the photos was people needing to be educated in how to properly fit a harness and put them together.....pelham bit in one of the above photos with the check attached where the bridle would attach, the bridle attached where the snaffle rein would go....educational stuff. A horse with no attached crupper (or as some knowledgeable (cough) RARAs call them Anal Poo Hole Plugs), Breeching not done properly.

    Again....I call your bluff....you are NOT a horse person, you only pretend to be one on the internet.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    4 members found this post helpful.

  17. #57
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    Jun. 7, 2002
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    Here's the thing you also aren't getting, OP. The FB page you linked is not about improving these horses' care at all. It exploits the death of a horse (who would have probably been just as dead from that heart condition if she was standing around in a field, but since she as in harness, it was abuse). It complains about horses breathing in fumes, being in noisy traffic, and this quote:

    "Thought??? When a Surrey Horse is taken off the streets because it's so emaciated that it can hardly stand, who follows up on it's care? Who monitors to see if the horse ACTUALLY RECEIVES CARE? These horses lives are falling through the cracks. There are agencies in place that ARE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING THEIR JOBS - BUT THEY'RE NOT. WHO SUFFERS AND WILL CONTINUE TO SUFFER ----- THE SURREY HORSES!"

    The old "we need to monitor the horses, because we know better than their owners do!" Not a good tactic when you're talking to horse owners, most of whom have dealt at some point with a horse that was sick or thin or for whatever reason could look mistreated to the uneducated.

    These are tactics that we COTHers are very familiar with. We don't generally take kindly to animal rights terrorism here.

    If you had linked to a fundraiser that was buying hay cubes to keep soaked and ready for surrey horses to eat whenever they're in the hack line, or building a fountain to make sure they have water, or building a cooling shed with misters, you would have gotten a warm welcome here.

    Instead you repeatedly allege abuse. "Brutal abuse and suffering" to be precise.

    You shouldn't throw those words around so cavalierly if you want sympathy. Breathing in fumes (in Nassau?) isn't anything close to abuse. Noisy cars are a non-issue to trained working horses.

    Stick to the things that you might actually be able to make a fair point on--these horses work, they need a lot of high quality food, and it's hard to come by. I don't recall seeing a Tractor Supply, Southern States, or Co-op on the island.

    Don't expect people that you're labeling as abusers to trust you. Now you have a lot of damage to undo if you truly want to help provide a higher level of care for these horses. I would start by taking down your abusive facebook page.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns



    4 members found this post helpful.

  18. #58
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    Jun. 7, 2002
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    DP!

    Double post, not the other thing.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns




  19. #59
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    Jul. 15, 2003
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    Tampa, FL
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    She made her exit, I think she is too cowardly to come back. She won't make her posts go "poof" but she will go "poof" and let's see how long before a "new" poster shows up to support her.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #60
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    Oct. 18, 2008
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    Deschapelles, Haiti
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    For anyone interested -Brookes, CVM, and Bluebonnet are all pretty good examples of how to change real abuse and help low-income owners care for animals. Those of us who support them and work in the ground with them are familiar with what constructive fieldwork and advocacy gets results in practice.
    HAS provides hospital care to 340,000 people in Haiti's Artibonite Valley 24/7/365/earthquake/cholera/whatever.
    www.hashaiti.org blog:http://hashaiti.org/blog


    2 members found this post helpful.

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