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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by loshad View Post
    Uh, you mean someone like Lillie Keenan, maybe? If you read the thread, or even just read starting around post 102, you'll notice that she did state what happened during an interview. Of course, we couldn't possibly take her word for it.
    All this sarcasm is getting confusing.

    I agree to believe the rider, especially since we have not had ONE witness come forward here. However as you can see this thread continues to say the horse did this or that and was drugged etc. which is unfortunate (no sarcasm here)

    And saying I think this would be a huge public issue if in fact the horse went down dramatically and it so far has "not" been a big public issue says a lot IMHO.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK View Post
    * Notable exception for the exceptional use of sarchasm, both in the sarcaster and the sarchasmee's ability to embrace the full width of the chasm.
    Lot of that going around.
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK View Post
    As for the issue of non trainers signing the form, today it's legal. I personally believe it is not in keeping with the spirit of the rule regardless of the reason for doing so, but that is not Heritage's fault. If USEF does not clarify the rule (and they surely know how it is being used) then they have effectively declared that it's fine. If that pisses you off, you are missing the real target.
    Couldn't agree with you more. And I keep SAYING that on threads like this and 85% of responding posters just keep ignoring it. Rules are rules. They are enforced by the letter and not the aspiration.

    Don't be mad at people following the letter of the rule. If it's a bad rule, it needs to be changed. Until then, people are justified (and well advised, actually) to follow the rule to the letter.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by supershorty628 View Post
    I was agreeing with you...
    I wish we had a sarcasm font.
    Whoops! Sorry! I didn't realize it was sarcasm, either!
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique



  5. #285
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    Does no one else think it's somewhat indicative of the problems in our sport that we have 15 pages of accusations and implications based on no facts?

    Unless someone was there and can tell us for sure that the horse was drugged, or that Bases Loaded was drugged, I think it's pretty horrific to paint Keenan in this light.

    Keenan said the horse was stung by a bee. And anyone who is a real horse person should know that horses are more than capable of responding in a manner that is unusual. Just because her horse didn't respond like your horse did when your horse got stung by a bee does not mean that Keenan is lying. And it doesn't mean the horse was drugged. Hell I've had a horse that wasn't paying attention step on his own front foot (with the opposite front foot) and fall down. He was a clumsy idiot, but he wasn't drugged or even narcoleptic. Unusual, sure. Nefarious, no.

    Isn't it time that COTHers became a positive force in the horse community? For all that you guys talk about change and rectifying the problems in our horse show world, it would seem like actually doing something productive would be more popular than sitting on your asses and speculating/opinionating/accusing behind anonymous screen names online. And no, that wasn't sarcastic.

    Doing nothing to affect change is just as guilty as being directly a part of the problem. And I don't think pontificating on COTH counts as affecting change. If you guys see all these problems, step one is to actually get involved so you actually know what you're talking about, and step two is to find a way to help make changes!! And no, that wasn't sarcastic either!
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)


    3 members found this post helpful.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mac123 View Post
    Does no one else think it's somewhat indicative of the problems in our sport that we have 15 pages of accusations and implications based on no facts?
    Welcome to the world of human nature. It's not just in the Hunter world. Try getting involved in politics
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mac123 View Post
    Does no one else think it's somewhat indicative of the problems in our sport that we have 15 pages of accusations and implications based on no facts?
    I think it has more to do with (1) it is getting towards the end of a long winter and (2) most of the 'hunters are evil' comments come from people who also say 'so glad I do not do that sport, mine is so much better'.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  8. #288
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    To tell someone that they don't know of what they speak because clearly they don't attend AA shows past, present, or future is about as rude as one can be.

    In the spirit of good horsemanship and <GASP> sportsmanship, rules for the use of legal or allowable drugs were put in place for the benefit of the animal NOT to garner ribbons for those who have mastered the art of concoctions.

    For those of you that do not believe drugs are rampant at all shows regardless of discipline I suggest you pull your collective heads out of the sand and take a wide-eyed look around.

    Dexamethasone is probably the most commonly abused "legal" drug. It is not being used as suggested but for off-label unproveable side-effects, but what the heck EVERYBODY does it and we are all lemmings. Not to even bring up all the nasty after-effects of long term usage and withdrawal. But c'est la vie.

    Methocarbamol is also used/abused for its supposed side-effect of calmness and relaxation. I am not aware of any long-term negative effects of low dosage usage but the long-term IV administration certainly could be considered a problem.

    Magnesium, while untestable, has all sorts of problems inherent in administration. Not to mention the dehydration it causes which is problematic for the gut. And lets not even discuss the fact that it can just stop their heart if pushed too quickly.

    Flunixin, yet another NSAID commonly used also causes all sorts of gastrointestinal problems if given in high doses or over several days. It is commonly the cause of ulcers. It should never be given IM as it can cause nasty ulcers so the best form of administration is IV.

    The latest is Lutalyse. This is a widely used dairy prostaglandin. Its normal use is to bring a mare into estrus, induce abortion, and to be helpful in jumpstarting horses with anhidrosis. But apparently its a favorite now among trainers as its ability to make a horse sweat uncontrollably and then get the cramps so bad you would think it was colicing would obviously induce quietness as a side effect.

    We also have among other things in the arsenal ketoprofen, phenylbutazone, sarapin blocks, Equioxx, naproxen, Lactonase. The list goes on and on.

    Again, I reiterate, while I have no problem with folks using these "legal" "allowable" at certain levels most are abused and used for off label side-effects in an unsportsmanlike manner clearly not the intention of the D & M rules.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    While it's true that turnout is good for horses, think of all the centuries when horses were working animals. If you think that carriage horses or cab horses or even riding horses got turnout back when they were about the only transportation, particularly in cities like London or New York, I'd say you were probably dreaming. Horses lworked for centuries without turnout. They may not have been happy or well adjusted, but they lived. That's why all the furor over turnout at shows, even those of several weeks duration, seems odd.
    It's a quality of life issue. Yes horses have lived for centuries as you described. But their life span was shorter, and soundness problems cut short their years of usefulness.

    But we know better now, and can offer a higher level of care.

    The goal of sporthorse disciplines (including hunters, I hope) is to raise and maintain a healthy and athletic performance horse...one that enjoys a long life staying as sound and as comfortable as possible.
    -Amor vincit omnia-



  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piggiejump View Post
    Wow. Just because someone's name indicates a Hispanic heritage doesn't mean all of this. It's incredible to me how quickly it comes to that. If one of our American barn managers names were on there, would it be as big a problem? Even tho the name on the entry is of someone who has been at the barn for 20 years and is in charge of all those American managers? And is a legal citizen?
    I am referring to naming a GROOM as the trainer. I am not referring to the citizenship status either. I (a plump middle aged re-rider) could be hired on as winter help at WEF for a BNT and somehow end up listed as "To Name Jr Rider's" "trainer" and THAT is what I find absurd. All because I was put in charge of the horse's upkeep for the winter.Sorry, the groom is the groom and he or she (whatever their background) is an employee of the trainer and is not the ultimate decision maker regarding the horse's care, upkeep and condition.
    F O.B
    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique


    4 members found this post helpful.

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    I am referring to naming a GROOM as the trainer. I am not referring to the citizenship status either. I (a plump middle aged re-rider) could be hired on as winter help at WEF for a BNT and somehow end up listed as "To Name Jr Rider's" "trainer" and THAT is what I find absurd. All because I was put in charge of the horse's upkeep for the winter.Sorry, the groom is the groom and he or she (whatever their background) is an employee of the trainer and is not the ultimate decision maker regarding the horse's care, upkeep and condition.
    Linny, the problem with your post is you made assumptions as to what a groom is based on your experience and some stereotypes that aren't always accurate. It had already been stated that this particular groom has worked for the farm in question for 15 years or more and has a LOT of responsibility. He's no short term, recent hire. I honestly believe he is has a lot of say regarding the care, custody and control of the horses.

    I do believe your point was that the groom who has only been employed for a short time and has little to no say in the C,C&C could be named as trainer...or scapegoat, as the case may be. This is a very valid point...but has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with honesty, integrity...and closing a loophole that will be abused by those lacking in the aforementioned traits.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"



  12. #292
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    Don't be mad at people following the letter of the rule. If it's a bad rule, it needs to be changed. Until then, people are justified (and well advised, actually) to follow the rule to the letter.
    Um. This I patently disagree with.

    If the letter of the law states that I must not kill my dog, but instead I *almost* kill my dog, I am following the letter of the law, but not the spirit, and in doing so I'm probably pretty likely morally wrong.

    Just because something is legal does not make it morally good, nor right.

    The spirit of the law is that the person responsible for the horse's care must sign as trainer. The intent is that this is the person who makes the decisions regarding the care, and sees that through, therefore if that person makes a decision regarding care that is against the rules, then that person is held accountable.

    I do believe that while it may be legally justified to have a groom sign, it is morally unacceptable (to me.)

    Extending this to calming supplements, the intent of the rule is to have nothing administered that alters the horse's performance. Following the spirit of this law means that you buy appropriate horses, train them well, most likely maintain them on a diet that does not include rocket fuel, and have a prep program that includes such radical things as training, a long hack etc. To administer other things may not (again) be against the letter of the law, but they sure are against the spirit.

    When I overheard a conversation at a large show barn about timing some legal medications so that they got the extra benefit of the calming effect that this medicine had on this horse, that sure felt like they were attempting to cheat, without cheating (and to me, that's the violation of the spirit of the law).

    So...no...following the letter is not necessarily our highest morality and I think it's very telling that this would be advisable. Again, I'm not restricting this to this particular situation, but that we think this is okay is...just not.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    Couldn't agree with you more. And I keep SAYING that on threads like this and 85% of responding posters just keep ignoring it. Rules are rules. They are enforced by the letter and not the aspiration.

    Don't be mad at people following the letter of the rule. If it's a bad rule, it needs to be changed. Until then, people are justified (and well advised, actually) to follow the rule to the letter.
    Yes, but I think two things are fair:

    1) The assumption that the USEF never intended to have the "trainer" line used to hold the signature of a fall guy.

    2) Those who do exploit this loop hole ought to be held accountable for explaining why they did.

    In general, if you *know* the world is suspicious and you are sure you are clean, then you go out of your way to maintain that appearance.

    At least, this is a temporary strategy that hunter trainers might adopt. A horse falling over without apparent cause at a show isn't something I have seen in 30 years of doing it. But the hunter industry is under scrutiny right now. IMO, that is part of what makes this event newsworthy. And in *that* context, everyone needs to behave a little cleaner rather than lamenting (again) that the USEF is a toothless old boys' club.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    4 members found this post helpful.

  14. #294
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    Aug. 19, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    I am referring to naming a GROOM as the trainer. I am not referring to the citizenship status either. I (a plump middle aged re-rider) could be hired on as winter help at WEF for a BNT and somehow end up listed as "To Name Jr Rider's" "trainer" and THAT is what I find absurd. All because I was put in charge of the horse's upkeep for the winter.Sorry, the groom is the groom and he or she (whatever their background) is an employee of the trainer and is not the ultimate decision maker regarding the horse's care, upkeep and condition.

    And my point is that I do not know of a single farm who does this. Not one. Every person who is listed as "trainer" that is not the person at the ring is the manager. The assumption that the situation you described occurs is completely unfounded and without any basis whatsoever.



  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothy Gale View Post
    To tell someone that they don't know of what they speak because clearly they don't attend AA shows past, present, or future is about as rude as one can be.

    In the spirit of good horsemanship and <GASP> sportsmanship, rules for the use of legal or allowable drugs were put in place for the benefit of the animal NOT to garner ribbons for those who have mastered the art of concoctions.

    For those of you that do not believe drugs are rampant at all shows regardless of discipline I suggest you pull your collective heads out of the sand and take a wide-eyed look around.

    Dexamethasone is probably the most commonly abused "legal" drug. It is not being used as suggested but for off-label unproveable side-effects, but what the heck EVERYBODY does it and we are all lemmings. Not to even bring up all the nasty after-effects of long term usage and withdrawal. But c'est la vie.

    Methocarbamol is also used/abused for its supposed side-effect of calmness and relaxation. I am not aware of any long-term negative effects of low dosage usage but the long-term IV administration certainly could be considered a problem.

    Magnesium, while untestable, has all sorts of problems inherent in administration. Not to mention the dehydration it causes which is problematic for the gut. And lets not even discuss the fact that it can just stop their heart if pushed too quickly.

    Flunixin, yet another NSAID commonly used also causes all sorts of gastrointestinal problems if given in high doses or over several days. It is commonly the cause of ulcers. It should never be given IM as it can cause nasty ulcers so the best form of administration is IV.

    The latest is Lutalyse. This is a widely used dairy prostaglandin. Its normal use is to bring a mare into estrus, induce abortion, and to be helpful in jumpstarting horses with anhidrosis. But apparently its a favorite now among trainers as its ability to make a horse sweat uncontrollably and then get the cramps so bad you would think it was colicing would obviously induce quietness as a side effect.

    We also have among other things in the arsenal ketoprofen, phenylbutazone, sarapin blocks, Equioxx, naproxen, Lactonase. The list goes on and on.

    Again, I reiterate, while I have no problem with folks using these "legal" "allowable" at certain levels most are abused and used for off label side-effects in an unsportsmanlike manner clearly not the intention of the D & M rules.
    The original topic was accusing Keenan of drugging her horses because last year she had a sticky ride and this year her horse fell down from a bee sting.

    Maybe they were drugged. Maybe they weren't. The point is we don't know.

    So instead of sitting around here saying "this is what happened", Keenan is so awful/her parents are awful/her trainers are awful/Heritage is awful/horse shows are awful ad nauseum, when really none of us know what happened, which has absolutely no benefit to anything whatsoever, how about people pay attention to real problems, like the ones you outlined with illegal drug use.

    No sane person will deny illegal drug use at the top (of any sport). The issues are how to continue to combat that issue, and how to more clearly define who is at fault when a horse tests positive.

    And at some point, the mundane multipaged train wrecks on COTH become comical, because everyone TALKS about the problems, and the majority aren't willing to DO anything to help perpetuate change.

    Change is made up of people in action. People getting involved, showing it can be done the right way, and creating task forces and teams that stand up to the the USEF and show them that this is a problem that we will not ignore.

    Everyone's so up in arms about this and it feels better to type it out, to cry wolf at every possible sign of possible foul play, and it feels like people are doing something, but they aren't.

    That's my point.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #296
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    "Every person who is listed as "trainer" that is not the person at the ring is the manager"

    Maybe you should clarify this as I assume the groom is usually a person at the ring.



  17. #297
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    The fact is that many groom are in fact immigrants and since I work in racing I see it every day. Grooms are the hardest workers on the backstretch and often the least heralded. Horseshow grooms are the same. I know, I've been one, though not at WEF or the like. In fact for a BNT to name a groom who would in fact take the fall should a drug positive be found is setting up far less powerful people to take the fall for them.
    The point was to demonstrate an example of a "lowest common denominator." If BNT hires winter help because they are leaving horses back home in northern bases, they could end up hiring people who fit my example who though hard working and dedicated are NOT trainers, or barn managers and who in many cases don't have the experience of either. Whether that person is me or a recent transplant to Wellington from a northern racetrack they shouldn't be listed as "Parkland's Trainer" because they are not, and doing so gives the appearance of attempting to establish a lack of liability.
    F O.B
    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #298
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    When this issue first came up, one of the trainers at Heritage came on to defend the position. Her argument was that the traveling stable manager (which this man is) knows better than the trainers what each horse has in his system on a daily basis. Therefore he is the appropriate person to name.

    My argument was that he was not the person who decided what each horse should get. Under normal circustance a barn manager does not decide to give one horse Methocarbimal, while another horse gets Depo, and a third horse might get Bute or Banamine. Those decisions have always been made by a TRAINER, not by a barn manager. The barn manager's job is to carry out the trainers' orders.

    Her reply was that they had consulted with their attornies and it was their opinion that they were not in violation of the rule.

    IMO, major barns which win a lot should be held to a higher standard. Children and adults alike look toward Heritage and Scott Stewart, etc., as people who can be and are emulated. If they get set down, or have to have to consult with attornies before making a decision, then it becomes OK for others to follow the same path.

    For these big names, the appearence of impropriety is as bad as the impropriety itself.

    Like all sports idols, whether they be football players or basketball players, if they break the law it is a bigger deal than if a junior college player does.

    Like Caesar's wife, they should be beyond reproach not standing so close to the line that their toes are on it.

    Just my opinion of course. Yours may vary.
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."


    10 members found this post helpful.

  19. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothy Gale View Post
    To tell someone that they don't know of what they speak because clearly they don't attend AA shows past, present, or future is about as rude as one can be.

    In the spirit of good horsemanship and <GASP> sportsmanship, rules for the use of legal or allowable drugs were put in place for the benefit of the animal NOT to garner ribbons for those who have mastered the art of concoctions.

    Finally someone talking sense!!!!!!!

    For those of you that do not believe drugs are rampant at all shows regardless of discipline I suggest you pull your collective heads out of the sand and take a wide-eyed look around.

    Dexamethasone is probably the most commonly abused "legal" drug. It is not being used as suggested but for off-label unproveable side-effects, but what the heck EVERYBODY does it and we are all lemmings. Not to even bring up all the nasty after-effects of long term usage and withdrawal. But c'est la vie.

    Methocarbamol is also used/abused for its supposed side-effect of calmness and relaxation. I am not aware of any long-term negative effects of low dosage usage but the long-term IV administration certainly could be considered a problem.

    Magnesium, while untestable, has all sorts of problems inherent in administration. Not to mention the dehydration it causes which is problematic for the gut. And lets not even discuss the fact that it can just stop their heart if pushed too quickly.

    Flunixin, yet another NSAID commonly used also causes all sorts of gastrointestinal problems if given in high doses or over several days. It is commonly the cause of ulcers. It should never be given IM as it can cause nasty ulcers so the best form of administration is IV.

    The latest is Lutalyse. This is a widely used dairy prostaglandin. Its normal use is to bring a mare into estrus, induce abortion, and to be helpful in jumpstarting horses with anhidrosis. But apparently its a favorite now among trainers as its ability to make a horse sweat uncontrollably and then get the cramps so bad you would think it was colicing would obviously induce quietness as a side effect.

    We also have among other things in the arsenal ketoprofen, phenylbutazone, sarapin blocks, Equioxx, naproxen, Lactonase. The list goes on and on.

    Again, I reiterate, while I have no problem with folks using these "legal" "allowable" at certain levels most are abused and used for off label side-effects in an unsportsmanlike manner clearly not the intention of the D & M rules.
    Finally someone making any sense!


    5 members found this post helpful.

  20. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    A horse falling over without apparent cause at a show isn't something I have seen in 30 years of doing it.
    Have you been reading this thread? Because if you have, you could not, with any integrity, say "without apparent cause." It might not be a cause that you agree with or accept, but an apparent cause has been given.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


    3 members found this post helpful.

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