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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonLadyIsis View Post
    We saw the horse go later that night. It looked fairly sore behind, many people here even commented on it.
    Is that different from it's normal way of going?
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  2. #222
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    The GP riders might have started the trend and is trickling down to lots of other trainers. Lots of them doing it just to protect themselves in case substances are found. What does that tell us? USEF should make everyone responsible for the horses they coach or show.


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  3. #223
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    The idea that a top trainer may have additional staff that create and manage a "program" (fitness, meds, body work, nutrition, schedule) does not seem that far fetched to me. That they might sign off on forms may well be appropriate. I could see having a staff member on board with that type of expertise if you were a large barn. Football teams have trainers that manage the fitness of players and are seperate from coaches. It's a different set of expertise. I can see the appeal to a top rider to hand of responsibility for drugtesting to this other party, particularly if the rider is not directly administering the meds program; there is a lot to lose. The main thing though, to me, would be if the person signing off was involved in creating the program versus just dumping feed and meds in a feed dish.



  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by lrp1106 View Post
    People have cited narcoleptic horses, tired horses, rollers, etc. and all this is very possible, but is pretty unlikely.
    Okay. People respond with their own actual experiences, but you think the same thing happening to another horse is pretty unlikely? Why?


    It's really disappointing to hear that she is supposedly drugging her horse. I have not accused her of riding a drugged horse, but I have speculated that it could very well be possible.
    A bunch of people on an internet board who couldn't pick Keenan or Parkland out of a crowd of three say she's supposedly drugging her horse.
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  5. #225
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    I looked at older (2011) videos of this horse to see if there was any difference or if I noticed anything weird. First of all, I wouldn't kick him out of bed for eating crackers. He's a nice horse. A very nice horse.

    However...

    I wanted to yell repeatedly - more pace!!! He twisted badly at many of the jumps because he was just being ridden too slowly (and since when is that not a major fault that should kick you out of the ribbons in company like that?). He won all three classes despite twisting (that I watched). It does not appear to be stylistic, though I'd have to see him do it while being ridden with some actual...well...pace.

    I did have a nice show hunter not that many years ago, but it's been years since I personally was active in the A show world. I know things are different now, and I'm not about to wax eloquent about how much better/worse it was (I'm well aware that cheating, as a human tendency, has been around for a millennia) but the show hunter distortion is getting worse and worse. I don't LIKE the look of these hunters - this one in particular. His pace is appropriate for hacking around, not for jumping.

    I'm not sure where this belongs in this thread of speculation, but I had to mention it.


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  6. #226
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    Apparently I need to reiterate for some people who are choosing not to understand what Lord Helpus wrote.

    There was nothing said about whether you know what good riding is. The point made was that having not been in that situation, you shouldn't be trying to comment on how the program of an A circuit barn (especially a specific one) works. I boarded for a while with some people who did dressage at a VERY high level, but I did not generalize to the entire dressage world based on what I saw while boarding with them.

    It's the same thing and you can choose to take that personally and go "well according to some people, my opinion doesn't count, so phooey!" or you can realize that there might be a nugget of truth there.

    And again, talking about the quality of a ride is entirely different than stating that all hunters are drugged, that this particular horse was drugged, and picking on his rider. She talked to COTH about what happened. Piggiejump has generously posted a little about what the horse is usually like.

    Don't try to spin this into how those of us who were fortunate enough to show on the A circuit look down on you and think you know nothing about riding - no one said that. But... knowing good riding/conformation/etc. and screeching harpy-style about one person based on a rumor are not the same thing and frankly, it's a little disturbing that a bunch of adults are so willing to pile on a child when no one on here even saw what happened and the majority of people's "facts" are coming from a site like Horse Show Diva.
    Last edited by supershorty628; Feb. 25, 2013 at 09:50 AM.


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  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midge View Post
    Okay. People respond with their own actual experiences, but you think the same thing happening to another horse is pretty unlikely? Why?




    A bunch of people on an internet board who couldn't pick Keenan or Parkland out of a crowd of three say she's supposedly drugging her horse.

    Statistically speaking, it's unlikely. Under 50% chance. Not impossible, unlikely.


    And actually, I've met Lillie Keenan before so I could be able to pick her out.



  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by lrp1106 View Post
    Statistically speaking, it's unlikely. Under 50% chance. Not impossible, unlikely. .
    How did you get that?
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  9. #229
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    It's the same thing and you can choose to take that personally and go "well according to some people, my opinion doesn't count, so phooey!" or you can realize that there might be a nugget of truth there.
    And, well there might be some nugget of truth that there are some pretty common practices in the hunter world that not all horsepeople find to be above board. I would be *shocked* to hear that for example, a top eventer's horse collapsed after dressage from a home made calming cocktail. I would not at all be surprised to hear about a top hunter collapsing from that.

    The reputation comes from somewhere. And I agree, 100% wrong to falsely accuse people of wrongdoing unless you know for certain. Particularly a kid who probably has nothing to do with the management of what sounds like a catch ride. But hell, some of the most untouchable of the hunter elite have been caught drugging and get defended and it nearly always ends up being "well, you wouldn't understand because you aren't involved".

    There is a nugget of truth about the steps taken to "calm" horses. People with no jealousy or reason to have envy AND in the know comment on it. They might even openly execute some of the practices. I mean, I see it pretty openly locally. These ideas do tend to trickle down.

    It's also fine not to worry about the perception of your sport. You can just keep it insular and who cares what other disciplines and horsepeople think. But really, do you want to be viewed like the TWH people that stand idly by allowing abuse to happen, telling outsiders they "don't get it". Or "it doesn't happen".


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  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midge View Post
    How did you get that?
    I've owned about 10 horses, and I've never had any narcoleptic horses. I've never personally known any horses, and I've ridden for most of my life. I'm not denying their existence, I trust many of the people on this board who tell their stories about narcoleptic horses. I just believe and think I have enough life experiences to say that a NARCOLEPTIC horse is unlikely. A bee sting is much more likely, which is what has been stated as the cause of the incident.



  11. #231
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    I do think it's quite telling that Heritage usually has up to 100 horses at a show and has never had any drug infractions. I highly doubt they've never been tested.


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  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by supershorty628 View Post
    I do think it's quite telling that Heritage usually has up to 100 horses at a show and has never had any drug infractions. I highly doubt they've never been tested.
    This is very telling. I agree. But we mustn't forget that many of the more modern and recent calming tools aren't testable - magnesium, for example.


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  13. #233
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    WOW, I am a very lucky person. All of the experts were not nearby when my horse fell asleep waiting at the gate for the jog, I went first and there were twenty in the class times two trips. He went down to his knees, startled himself and bounced around a little before getting back on his feet.
    The horse had been champion of the country twice in a three foot six hunter division. I never had to lunge him OR drugs of any kind. He just was bored and fell asleep.
    Again, Thank goodness this happen before the days of instant gossip. In fact most people present were laughing at the jokes asking if he would stay awake during the hack.
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  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia73 View Post
    And I agree, 100% wrong to falsely accuse people of wrongdoing unless you know for certain.
    I concur.

    And yet, this thread continues.


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  15. #235
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    I do think it's quite telling that Heritage usually has up to 100 horses at a show and has never had any drug infractions. I highly doubt they've never been tested.
    That's a good thing. And a shame that they get painted with the assumption. But that should tell you why hunters need to come down like a ton of bricks on people who do monkey around with the drugging so that their reputations do not become unjustly tainted by association.

    People outside the discipline don't look at each individual barn. They look at the sport as a whole. If you went to an event and saw say 5 or 6 riders totally overfaced, you might assume "gee, eventers are not prepared to go XC". You probably won't take the time to look and see "oh, they are all from Barn X with the bad trainer!".


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  16. #236
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    I agree with all of this. And I second, where on earth are the parents? Or at least someone with brain cells in their head. I've been training and riding horses from a young age, and I can guarantee I never would have gotten on a horse that had collapsed, 15 or not. This is just not ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebuckets View Post
    Diverting attention by squabbling over details takes the emphasis of the discussion away from the main point: a horse collapsed and was shown the same day. And that is not ok in any arena, hunter bubble land or no.

    I don't care where the horse collapsed or whether or not someone was leading him or riding him or what, you do not go out and show the horse the same day. Period. I don't care whether it is hunter week at HITS or what. I don't care who trains and rides the horse (actually I do, I will steer very clear of people who end up with "accidents" *insertdrippingsarcasmhere* and "misunderstandings" like that).

    Horses do not fall over willy-nilly. There is a reason, and that should be discovered and treated before the horse returns to competition, for the safety of the person on their back and for their own safety as well. I'm willing to guess that that is a very valuable horse, and for it to snap its leg because of a trip caused by a drug-induced stupor in the show ring just so it can win some weekday class is ridiculous from a business perspective. I show jumpers, so no, I'm not entirely up with what goes on in hunter land, but I know we'd never do that. You just wouldn't do that with a $$$$$$$$$$$$ horse (at least, we wouldn't. We also don't drug or do anything illicit, either).

    Additionally, a talented young rider like Lillie should not put her entire career and life at risk by riding a horse who could end it all for her should it fall on her and paralyze her or worse. The video of her mount last year is a precursor to what could happen.

    Where are her parents, and does her trainer just not care for her at all? Although her trainer should be watching out for her safety at this point (until she learns to do it on her own) her parents most certainly should be stepping in and saying, "Look, kiddo, we know you want to make it to the top, but you can't get there if you're in a wheelchair or a box six feet under."
    Give the horse the day off, continue collecting points for year-end circuit championchips etc. tomorrow. Or even the next week, heck, WEF is far from over! And neither is Lillie's career or the horse's either. They don't need to show every single class. OK, she catch rides. Part of catch riding is knowing when to get off and walk away. In the end, I think (I hope) no one would blame her if she decided to NOT put herself in a dangerous situation!

    And doesn't anyone think it suspicious that the horse was (purportedly) trained by a Heritage Farm groom? That's the oldest trick in the book, people: that way when the horse is tested positive for drugs, the actual trainer can't be suspended. C'mon, guys, I know most of you have been around the block quite a few more times than me: you should have picked up on that.


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  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by mandimai View Post
    I agree with all of this. And I second, where on earth are the parents? Or at least someone with brain cells in their head. I've been training and riding horses from a young age, and I can guarantee I never would have gotten on a horse that had collapsed, 15 or not. This is just not ok.
    But I would have gotten on a horse that had dropped to roll because of a bee sting.

    Not saying it is or is not the case here but not everything is caused by nefarious conditions. Sometimes things that happen are just things that happen.


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  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by mandimai View Post
    I agree with all of this. And I second, where on earth are the parents? Or at least someone with brain cells in their head. I've been training and riding horses from a young age, and I can guarantee I never would have gotten on a horse that had collapsed, 15 or not. This is just not ok.
    Considering that Lillie's mom was a very, very winning junior rider in her day, I think she knows enough to decide the risks involved with letting her kid get back on. I don't think she needs you to parent for her.


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  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardi View Post
    I said this on the other "Live Stream" thread, and I'll say it again here. I hope the announcers are well paid for their farm/trainer endorsements.

    There was a comment made near the end of the second round to the effect of how great so-and-so's place is and the care is so great.....while so-and-so just finished her round !

    Parkland (during the awards given between rounds) seemed half awake during the win picture. She went to move him back a step or two, and he slowly moved back, but kept one knee slightly bent as if he had trouble standing. He finally straightened it out, but an alert horse wouldn't WANT to stand on bended knee.
    His head rarely came above his withers.

    He truly rallied in the second round, and thankfully made it around safely. But I think we all agree he "just wasn't right."
    I have no doubt (and have seen) that methods that I don't approve of are used to prepare many top hunters, especially those ridden by the lifeblood of the horse business, juniors and ammies. Nonetheless I also want to chime in that many posters here were not even on the grounds at this event, let alone witnessing the collapse and examination back at the barn - and there are many reasons a horse can go down or falter. Not too long ago my horse stepped on a clip while being shoes because the horse started to buckle on the other leg and had to put its other foot down to catch itself. No drugs. Of course there is a concern that something is wrong mechanically, so I agree that I would not have shown that day my horse buckled, if I had been at a horse show. But I'm not comfortable calling out people by name whom I don't know and didn't witness endangering or lacking horsemanship enough to make the right call - and hopefully similarly situated posters will feel the same.


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  20. #240
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    It's totally plausible to me that a horse might try to drop or roll if they were stung underneath them. I know a young pony who would lay down (sitting up) in the summer in the field because he couldn't take the flies. Sure, kicking out, bucking or trying to run away from hurtful insects is common, but evading in another way isn't out of the question, in my experience and opinion.



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