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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Fish View Post
    And, I love the title of this thread. Like BILL GATES is the bad guy (if there is one). Rumor, speculation and a BIG absence of facts.

    I heard a RUMOR that Parkland was sold. Even if the horse is leased, then Bill Gates has nothing to do with this thread. But that doesn't stop people from erroneously dragging both Mr. Gates and his daughter into this conversation and lending all sorts of gossip into why (or if) the horse went down. It's disgraceful.

    As Lord Helpus said, most of you have no credibility. Your speculation is damaging and none of you seem to care who you drag through the gutter with you. This isn't the first thread that takes potshots at innocent people in the industry and it's getting really old, really really fast.

    Quite frankly, I'm starting to think that there's a whole lot of people sitting behind a computer that have never, ever in their life owned a quality horse that can compete at this level. A little green monster is loose and is frequently making an appearance on the COTH boards.
    The only reason the thread has Bill Gates' name in it is because when my friend in WEF texted me about the incident, all she told me was that it was Parkland (who I know is owned by BG) and Lillie Keenan was riding. I didn't know if she was warming it up for Jennifer Gates, leasing it, etc. If you would like me to remove it from the thread name I will be happy to do so. Besides the fact that I am loyal to Apple products merely because I think they're the best on the market, I have nothing against Bill Gates. The man is a genius.



  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by lrp1106 View Post
    The only reason the thread has Bill Gates' name in it is because when my friend in WEF texted me about the incident, all she told me was that it was Parkland (who I know is owned by BG) and Lillie Keenan was riding. I didn't know if she was warming it up for Jennifer Gates, leasing it, etc. If you would like me to remove it from the thread name I will be happy to do so. Besides the fact that I am loyal to Apple products merely because I think they're the best on the market, I have nothing against Bill Gates. The man is a genius.
    Exactly my point. You start all this rumor-mongering based on ONE text from a friend who happened to be at WEF. You really had no facts, yet look what spiraled out of control on this thread by you speculating about events when you actually knew nothing about the situation. That includes not knowing who actually owned/leased the horse.

    I appreciate you changing the title of this thread and removing the Gates' name. I would also appreciate you holding your fingers at bay until you actually have some FACTS.
    Fan of the Swedish Chef


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  3. #183
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    After lurking this thread for 10 pages here are my 2 cents.

    1) Who cares WHO the horse belongs to..it could be owned by Mother Theresa. It doesn't change the fact that the horse collapsed from a suposed bee sting and was ridden later in the day twice.

    2) Drugging has nothing to do with yet. Does it happen? It probably does. I have never seen it or experienced it first hand, so I can't really comment on the prevalence of it or not.

    Who cares about drugging when even a basic level of compassion for the animal you are sitting on, or about to sit on, is sorely lacking.


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  4. #184
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    sorry for the dupe...computer spazzed!



  5. #185
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    Seriously, it sounds like the uneducated crap the anti-carraige people say.
    The article in the New York Times about the pony woman is what put me over the edge. Call me crazy, but if I had a pony in need of that many meds to do a job, I'd give him some time off.... I do hope that type of "medication" is limited to a few fringe crazies. And I'll buy the bee story (surely no one is dumb enough to have a horse collapse from the wrong mix of drugs.... then go ride). I haven't been to a show in ages, but I imagine it was a lot like in the past, a few bad apples here and there. It would probably be a good idea for the sport to actually get rid of those apples as they taint the whole batch, but they seem not to do that. Sends a bad impression to the rest of the horse world. It shouldn't be a surprise.... c'mon, a random sport ends up in the NYT because of some woman drugging a pony? You'd think she'd at least be entirely kicked out of the sport as a fall guy.

    The show horses are treated well enough, and I think the successful ones probably enjoy the life of being a show horse. The ability to stay sound, quiet and relaxed in that environment doesn't come cheap. But yes, I am pretty sure that some people use than scrupulous and humane methods to get the lesser to the ring with the end goal of income. It's human nature. What I find annoying is that the sport doesn't seem to get rid of these people.



  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    Wait! Isn't Placerville in California? There is no such thing as grass fields or paddocks at a commercial boarding barn in 95% of California. I lived and showed there for 17 years, with several different trainers. Land is so valuable that most people are not wealthy enough to own enough land to just support horses.

    And any paddock, if used a lot, will lose all its grass. The farms I boarded it had small square paddocks which allowed a horse to get out of its stall and walk around without being lead. Period. That is the reality of horse ownership in Ca. It has NOTHING to do with hunters v. TWH v. saddlebreds -- etc.
    It's not just the land - it's the water. Pasture for more than a few months in spring requires irrigation and in much of California you cannot have water for that level of irrigation. As in, not just that it's unfeasibly expensive (which it would be) but that it is not legally permitted because of the scarcity.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonLadyIsis View Post
    Who cares about drugging when even a basic level of compassion for the animal you are sitting on, or about to sit on, is sorely lacking.
    Wait, so what do you think should have been done? Assuming that we've been told the truth and the horse was, in fact, stung by a bee and then checked out by a vet and given an "all clear", what should have happened? You're trying to say they should've scratched? I'm sorry, but I don't think asking the horse to jump sixteen jumps is too much or shows a lack of compassion.


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  8. #188
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    I don't understand this. If a horse is having some kind of issue that's serious enough to make it drop *multiple times*, shouldn't you just call it a day??


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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnicklefritzG View Post
    I don't understand this. If a horse is having some kind of issue that's serious enough to make it drop *multiple times*, shouldn't you just call it a day??
    Other than rumor, we don't know that the horse dropped multiple times. According to Lillie's quote in the COTH article, it was just once.



  10. #190
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    We saw the horse go later that night. It looked fairly sore behind, many people here even commented on it.


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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonesy View Post
    oh and the announcer last night said keenan is trained by andre dignelli but thats not whats on the entry blank.
    This is something that really bothers me. Whoever is in charge of the horse enough to be signing the entry blank is the person who should get the glory and the credit as trainer for the horse's performance (good or bad), when it is announced, and when awards are presented.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonLadyIsis View Post
    We saw the horse go later that night. It looked fairly sore behind, many people here even commented on it.
    Apparently that's sort of just how he goes... It's not soreness. (I mean, it may be, but it's not out of the ordinary.)

    ETA: Just re-watched Parkland's first round from last night. Looked pretty normal to me—jumped great, played a little in the corners, ears soft and relaxed. Doesn't look like a hurting or doped up horse to me, but to each their own.


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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Fish View Post
    Exactly my point. You start all this rumor-mongering based on ONE text from a friend who happened to be at WEF. You really had no facts, yet look what spiraled out of control on this thread by you speculating about events when you actually knew nothing about the situation. That includes not knowing who actually owned/leased the horse.

    I appreciate you changing the title of this thread and removing the Gates' name. I would also appreciate you holding your fingers at bay until you actually have some FACTS.
    I started the rumor to ask if anyone could CONFIRM and several people HAVE. I made no accusations in my OP. I asked if anyone KNEW what had happened, and apparently something DID happen. And honestly it would be pretty terrible to IGNORE an instance like this. Even if it was a bee sting, hearing about a horse DROPPING ringside or while being ridden then showing that day is pretty alarming. People have cited narcoleptic horses, tired horses, rollers, etc. and all this is very possible, but is pretty unlikely. I think it's okay to be concerned about Parkland after hearing about this instance.

    I think it's pretty damn important for people to be aware of what's going on. Lillie Keenan is one of the biggest hunter riders in the country. My pre-teen sister looks up to her, I look up to her, my older sister looks up to her, A LOT OF PEOPLE LOOK UP TO HER. It's really disappointing to hear that she is supposedly drugging her horse. I have not accused her of riding a drugged horse, but I have speculated that it could very well be possible.

    And really? Holding my fingers at bay until the "truth"/"facts" are revealed? I feel sorry for poor Humble, cause lemme tell ya, the truth is never coming out with that one. I can't even imagine what would happen if nobody ever questioned anything slightly suspicious. It's ALWAYS important to QUESTION and INVESTIGATE anything that may seem out of place, especially if someone/something is having their voice, their wellbeing, and their health compromised.

    ETA: It's a FACT that a groom signed as trainer. It's a FACT that the horse DID have some type of large scale reaction/drop/"attempt to roll"/whatever Keenan stated in the COTH article. It's a FACT that Bill Gates owns the horse. It's a FACT that Heritage Farms is leasing the horse. Those are the facts thus far, and those are the only things I have ever claimed to know for sure, and all of those things have been provided by the COTH article, the entries which were published online by WEF, Lillie Keenan, and an employee of Heritage Farm.


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  14. #194
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    parkland was stung by a bee and rolled. you all are very ignorant sillies


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  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Fish View Post
    Exactly my point. You start all this rumor-mongering based on ONE text from a friend who happened to be at WEF. You really had no facts, yet look what spiraled out of control on this thread by you speculating about events when you actually knew nothing about the situation. That includes not knowing who actually owned/leased the horse.

    I appreciate you changing the title of this thread and removing the Gates' name. I would also appreciate you holding your fingers at bay until you actually have some FACTS.
    It's been my experience on these threads that people don't necessarily care too much about what the facts are. Speculation and sensationalism are ever so much more fun. We could have photographs and video of the bee sting, vet reports complete with bee DNA in the horse's blood stream, and a notarized affadavit from the bee's mother and people would STILL be wondering how they managed to get the bee to inject the horse with [DRUG DU JOUR HERE].

    As for HSD, I wouldn't believe more than one word in ten of what I read there unless it was backed up by eyewitness testimony from George Washington, Abe Lincoln, and Mother Teresa.
    According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.


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  16. #196
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    Seems to me that one of the reasons for half of the problems in our industry is exactly what happened in this trainwreck - instead of recognizing that 98% of people involved with horses want to do right by them, and banding together to stop the 2% of people who don't, we start fighting with each other. "Hunters are awful, horses not being turned out is cruel, a horse that fell must have been drugged" etc.

    I am as much against drugging horses to show as anyone else. However, I'm also not for lunging them into the ground, working them to exhaustion, etc - none of those options are the right thing to do either. I had a horse who went through a period where he apparently wasn't sleeping well and suddenly became narcoleptic - and he fell down twice fully tacked up, because he was waiting for a rider and got bored and fell asleep. I have had horses who hated turnout and horses who couldn't live without it.

    Like the majority of posters on this thread, I have no idea what happened in this situation. I certainly hope that it wasn't that the horse was drugged, but I'm not in a position to know and I choose not to speculate. What I do know, though, is that as long as we are all busy arguing with each other, not much is being done to put a stop to the behavior that we all agree is egregiously wrong. We could do a lot more good by working together to stop genuine abuse, instead of worrying about who is an eventer vs a hunter rider, and what is the right amount of turnout.


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  17. #197
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    Did anyone on here actually see the horse collapse? A horse lying down and rolling looks very different from a horse collapsing. If the grooms/rider/owner etc saw the horse roll (not collapse), then the vet checked it and found what appeared to be a bee sting, it's not shocking the horse was shown again. Lots of horses roll with their tack on, even just to roll.
    I think unless people actually saw the horse go down, and were with the vet during the exam, it's really impossible to say.
    I have shown A-circuit hunters for years (albeit in an area where hunters aren't huge) but I have never drugged a horse (in fact I have never sat on a drugged horse, even when rehabbing... gets that's why I've gotten bucked off a few times doing that).


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  18. #198
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    ^agree. As I said before I'm not getting in this fight unless there are eyewitnesses that say otherwise then a bee sting. Also ive been walking on my horse in the arena in good footing and he went to is knees but saved us both thank goodness. There was no reason he was just not paying attention and was relaxed and well it happened. This was at my home in my arena and no way was he drugged. It's sad that this young rider has had two strange issues in the past year but things happen sometimes. Idk if the horse was drugged or not but without evidence or eyewitnesses who am I to say. We can talk about how strange it was, or could drugs do this but to throw out that the horse was drugged with no proof is not fair to anyone. I do believe all winners and reserves should be tested as well as randoms but that's not the way it is. If we want to change this then we have to ban together for change not fight with on another.

    Just have to add on the rodeo horses. Good stock contractors take amazing care of those animals. Bulls or horses. They are on large pastures when off and cared for. Is a bucking strap natural,no, but is a saddle ummm no. We train our horses to carry us around and be safe. Jump jumps, do spins, run barrels, rope calfs, piaffe, etc. They train theirs to buck. That strap is no worse then a girth on our horse. The only reason they react to it is because they have not been desensitized to it like we do our horses. We teach ours if we mount and accidentally tap them in the flank to behave, these horses are trained to buck. No difference. Yes, there are bad stock contractors just like there are bad hunters and bad eventers and bad jumpers etc.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole


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  19. #199
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    Perhaps you should change the title of the thread to something less sensational like "Parkland stung by bee at WEF" - now that the facts are cleared up.

    I'm highly skeptical of most of what I read here - and this was no exception. I couldn't help wondering at first if there was a misinterpretation of "dropped" - a term sometimes used to describe a gelding's, um, relaxed stance. ;-)

    I love Lord Helpus' comments about credibility of posters. Too bad there's not something akin to a pop-up blocker to screen out speculation and rumor.


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  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    Wait! Isn't Placerville in California? There is no such thing as grass fields or paddocks at a commercial boarding barn in 95% of California. I lived and showed there for 17 years, with several different trainers. Land is so valuable that most people are not wealthy enough to own enough land to just support horses.

    And any paddock, if used a lot, will lose all its grass. The farms I boarded it had small square paddocks which allowed a horse to get out of its stall and walk around without being lead. Period. That is the reality of horse ownership in Ca. It has NOTHING to do with hunters v. TWH v. saddlebreds -- etc.

    If you are going to make statements based on your experience, and if you are so naive or uninformed not to realize that your experience is typical of ALL large barns in or near metropolitan areas, then you might qualify your opinion to reflect it.

    It would be interesting to see how many people posting have actually ridden with a BNT and/or shown at AA shows for any length of time. Why don't people post their credentials when giving their opinions? That way we will know whether or not to take you seriously?

    I'll start: I have ridden on the AA circuit for years -- From WEF to Lake Placid and from Arizona to Northern Calfornia. Yes, there is drugging, but it is not as prevalent as the haters with no experience are implying or outright stating (as if they have inside knowledge).

    SO easy to be an armchair quarterback. Doesn't give you any credibility.

    Oh, I'm so sorry that my lack of experience does not qualify me to comment on MY experience with barns! Holy freaking cow! Seriously? Just because someone doesn't show at that level hardly disqualifies someone from knowing good riding, being able to critique riding, conformation, etc. So yes, I'm an armchair quarter back because growing up I chose to spread my time between horses, sheep and cattle which I showed all over the state and poor me did not have the financial funds to show A circuit even if I didn't do that. Does that mean I suck as a rider? Apparently. I did board at both of the A barns I'm talking about (oh, and yes, I'm in Ca. Previously just south of Sacramento, now East of Sacramento and I grew up in the Bay Area. My horses live on 5 acres. with...gasp. pasture. They have previously been boarded at barns with...gasp...pasture. That also grew grass! Ca is not all concrete. And I did say in my post that the barns that I had been at. I'm neither naive or uninformed. Thank you very much. I know perfectly well that most barns don't get to have pasture. But apparently I've been lucky that pretty much all of the barns I've been at between being a child to now have had pasture as well as most of the barns in the general area.) and the trainer liked my horse so much she told me if I ever sold him she would buy him. She also said that we reminded her of herself and her old horse. So...I guess the fact that I trained that horse myself and was normally at the top of my classes at those little shows that us poor unfortunates have to go to means that I know absolutely nothing.

    I'm sorry but I'm tired of people saying that those of us that don't show A circuit are not qualified to comment on those that do. Just because people take different paths in life doesn't mean that the person that has the had less knows any less than the person that has more. My "credentials" may not be as fancy but I've ridden since I was born, I grew up at barns where we did our own work, learned how to take care of our horses medically and my trainers NEVER got on my horse. Like I said, I trained my old man from 4 yrs up. I haven't had a trainer since I was about 12 and yet somehow my horse and I managed to continue to show and win. Hmmm...how did that happen? I was also in 4-H where again, we learned horsemanship, caring for our horses etc. My leader wasn't just a random person. She is a judge, grew up with a dad who was a H/J trainer, rode H/J until her knees gave out and is still a highly sought after National level Welsh judge. I have successfully trained multiple horses myself for my own use over the years. I did CSHA where in the horsemastership program the tests involved being able to label every bone in the body, know diseases, lameness, breeds, colors, history, pretty much everything you could know about a horse.So since you got to show on the big circuit does that make you that much better than me? Does it make you that much more knowledgeable? Does it really mean that I can't tell a good rider from a bad one? A good horse from a bad one? Just remember because some of us aren't as privileged doesn't make us less qualified as you.


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