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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonesy View Post
    I went and looked at that "other" site and the initial post never mentioned drugs. regardless, the eyewitnesses were laura bowery who was kind enough to jump in and try to help. the horse went down and flailed and then got up and back down again defecating and urinating all over himself and thrusting its legs like it was in a seizure, rolling up on its back, uncontrollable to get near. scott stewart and kim stewart were supposedly there. no one did anything but the bowery lady and it wasnt even her horse. it went on so long that the show vet came and it took the vet 10 minutes to get there. oh yeah, david burton jr was there. an event that goes on so long that the vet takes 10 minutes is no bee sting. if it was a big sting they had to give it something to counteract.

    oh and the announcer last night said keenan is trained by andre dignelli but thats not whats on the entry blank. i guess we will see what the drug test shows and who gets in trouble for not listing themselves as the trainer when they really are. that is fraud and they should be suspended from the usef for their deceit.

    and yes usef can drug test anything suspicious
    Quote Originally Posted by jonesy View Post
    Let's say "hypothetically" I am a mom of a junior rider and I am standing at the ring when this alleged event happened and lets say I went to video said event on my phone and realized, bad idea, all these BNTs are watching and surely there is enough proof this is happening. My kid is gonna get black balled if I show this video. Show management was there. Surely they would intervene. And yes poop and pee and yes seizure like actions and the appearance that this is what a dying animal would do, loosing bowels and horrible distress. Just sayin....
    ( Bolding mine)

    So first you are kind enough to throw someones name out there as a witness ( weather or not this person was actually there is another story...)

    then you insinuate in a hypothetical that YOU ( because I'm not sure who else you would be posting a hypothetical about...) were there and saw it, was going to video it, but didn't, and claim you were worried about being black balled for something that happened with other people around to see it????

    Everyone is on here flaming a young lady who is NOT here to defend herself, from a barn with a reputation beyond reproach ( as far as drugging at shows). If the event was SOOOO horrible ( far more then was mentioned by the RIDER herself in the PRESS) WHY is there not one REAL person who SAW it. I don't care what SOMEONE on HSD said. Everyone is making assumptions about an event that they DIDN'T see. Calling shame onto a 16 year old girl, and her parents. Not a single one of you has first hand knowledge of this.

    Here is what we know 100%

    1. The horse went down once. ( How it went down and it going down MORE than once is complete heresy)

    2.The person holding the horse was the groom and/or barn manager. This person signed as trainer in accordance with USEF rules. ( We don't know if he makes decisions about WHAT the horses are allowed to receive or not. It doesn't matter if YOU would allow it, what matters is if the Coach allows it ( otherwise known as trainer))

    3. Once the horse was up it was taken to the barn ( we don't know how long the horse was on the ground. We don't know if it urinated and defecated itself. We don't know if it was on the ground for 1 minute or 10 minutes)

    4. A vet arrived to look at the horse and deemed him fit to ride according to the rider ( We don't know how long it took the vet to arrive, we don't know if he did or did not say the horse was fit to ride. We only know what the riders said)

    5. A welt associated with a bee sting was found and determined to be the cause by the vet according to the rider ( again we don't know exactly what the vet said as the vet has not commented)

    6. Horse later showed.

    That is all we know and everything else is an angry lynch mob.


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  2. #362
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    I wonder how a well trained horse, with so many trainers, owners, grooms, riders and show personnel around, has no one that can tell if a horse is just laying down (disobedient at the very least) for a roll or is in serious distress.

    Really.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #363
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    nlk, we don't "know" any of that. It's just what a number of people (who in turn may or may not "know") are saying happened. Some of it could be true, all of it could be true, or the truth could be somewhere in the middle. To date, there have been no videos leaked to youtube, no deposition made, no statements from attending vets, and I seriously doubt that none of these will be made. So the collective "we" will never "know".


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  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    nlk, we don't "know" any of that. It's just what a number of people (who in turn may or may not "know") are saying happened. Some of it could be true, all of it could be true, or the truth could be somewhere in the middle. To date, there have been no videos leaked to youtube, no deposition made, no statements from attending vets, and I seriously doubt that none of these will be made. So the collective "we" will never "know".
    Actually it was release in a press statement as someone posted the link too. You will notice that in the majority I said "we" know that the "rider" said... Because the rider has in fact said these things there for the collective "we" does in fact know what the rider said....


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  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    nlk, we don't "know" any of that. It's just what a number of people (who in turn may or may not "know") are saying happened. Some of it could be true, all of it could be true, or the truth could be somewhere in the middle. To date, there have been no videos leaked to youtube, no deposition made, no statements from attending vets, and I seriously doubt that none of these will be made. So the collective "we" will never "know".
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...ain-palm-beach

    Please refer to the article
    Last edited by nlk; Feb. 27, 2013 at 01:01 AM. Reason: inserted wrong link



  6. #366
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    Everyone is on here flaming a young lady who is NOT here to defend herself, from a barn with a reputation beyond reproach ( as far as drugging at shows). If the event was SOOOO horrible ( far more then was mentioned by the RIDER herself in the PRESS) WHY is there not one REAL person who SAW it. I don't care what SOMEONE on HSD said. Everyone is making assumptions about an event that they DIDN'T see. Calling shame onto a 16 year old girl, and her parents. Not a single one of you has first hand knowledge of this.
    Exaggerate much?

    What I see is a bunch of thoughtful people with the exception of one or two, who are saying a sum total of this:

    "This is weird and if it really happened well ok, but it seems so strange that it is really hard to believe the statements made"

    Then we were having some rather thoughtful discussions about why or why not someone other than the actual trainer should sign the form as trainer and what that means, as well as discussing what goes on in the hunter world and how sad it is that enough of this has happened that we all suspect this when a horse exhibits the behavior it was said to exhibit. I forgot to mention the suspicion and resultant discussion about narcolepsy.

    The hunter world will never EVER get better if our choices are to shut up and believe everything we read, hear or are told. There is a place for this thoughtful examination. I personally am interested in the reason that a bee sting makes an article worth interviewing anyone about and can only presuppose that the incident looked suspicious enough to actually have the press cover it.

    So take your hysteria and perhaps join the discussion among those of us on this thread who are speaking in the broader picture. Why is it that a horse goes down at a show, shows later, and is considered newsworthy??


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  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by lrp1106 View Post
    For anyone who doesn't remember/hasn't seen/didn't see Bases Loaded in the Hunter Spectacular last year (I had to look it up earlier because I couldn't remember):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkOxWkz88Qc

    There IS a mistake in the name of the rider, it is in fact Lillie Keenan.
    What in gods name is wrong with people? Poor guy....
    "And my good dreams? They all come with a velvet muzzle and four legs. All my good dreams are about horses."--In Colt Blood

    COTH Barn Rats Clique!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Why is it that a horse goes down at a show, shows later, and is considered newsworthy??
    Because the rider is Lillie Keenan, the horse is Parkland and it happened in public view. Picture this: a groom hand -grazing horse in nether reaches of show grounds. Horse drops and rolls, maybe more than once. Horse is checked by vet who finds bee sting.


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  9. #369
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    I think you misunderstand me.

    I am saying that the state of the sport has gotten to the point that there is speculation because a horse goes down, and the FIRST suspicion is drugs.

    This implies that there's a bigger issue in the sport than a dose of celebrity.

    Let's put it another way - a horse in the western pleasure arena comes in with his nose on the floor and a bleeding side. What conclusion might everyone come to? Admit it, you know what you are thinking. Then an article comes out saying that the side was because he had rolled in the stall and caught himself right where the rider's leg would be on a nail. You wouldn't be the least bit suspicious? No?

    The fact that we are having this discussion at all is because the dirt of choice in the hunter world is illegal calming agents. If the same thing happened in eventing the discussion would be about over facing the horse and if it happened in dressage I'm sure it would be about how hyperflexion damages the nerves of horses and can cause damage such as this.

    Make more sense?


    10 members found this post helpful.

  10. #370
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    My thought is that if I have a horse that has collapsed with me and had "something" bad enough to cause this type of event to occur you can DAMN sure know that I will not be competing that horse later in the day.

    Maybe it wasn't drugs but whatever it was horses don't just collapse for no reason and that is not to be taken lightly.

    I AM SICK OF PEOPLE DRUGGING THEIR HORSES AND CHEATING TO WIN.
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart


    4 members found this post helpful.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by europa View Post
    My thought is that if I have a horse that has collapsed with me and had "something" bad enough to cause this type of event to occur you can DAMN sure know that I will not be competing that horse later in the day.

    Maybe it wasn't drugs but whatever it was horses don't just collapse for no reason and that is not to be taken lightly.

    I AM SICK OF PEOPLE DRUGGING THEIR HORSES AND CHEATING TO WIN.
    It wasn't for 'no reason'. He got stung by a bee on his belly. Nothing to do with drugs or cheating.


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  12. #372
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    You can be sick of people drugging all you want, and you should be, but that doesn't seem to have much to do with the event that happened. Are you sick of people riding horses that are fine and have been checked out by a vet and cleared to continue? Nothing about Lilly's statement implied she or her team took the situation lightly.

    I understand there is a lot of frustration about situations like what happened to Humble, as well there should be. I hate to see it bleed over into unrelated events and tarnish people who are not guilty of the same crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by europa View Post
    My thought is that if I have a horse that has collapsed with me and had "something" bad enough to cause this type of event to occur you can DAMN sure know that I will not be competing that horse later in the day.

    Maybe it wasn't drugs but whatever it was horses don't just collapse for no reason and that is not to be taken lightly.

    I AM SICK OF PEOPLE DRUGGING THEIR HORSES AND CHEATING TO WIN.


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  13. #373
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    (I should preface this by saying that I didn't witness this, I only heard about it through this thread.)

    Wow, this thread is almost 20 pages so far.

    And it's 20 pages of finger pointing, not a whole lot of facts. That does absolutely nothing to help anyone or fix anything. Was the horse drugged? There's really only one person who would know for sure. Was the horse stung by a bee? That's what the vet says. Was a horse inexplicably dropping at the schooling ring disconcerting to people who witnessed it? Certainly!

    But I think the thing that is most disturbing is the knee-jerk reaction to blame this on drugs.

    That being said, and understanding that illegal "doping" is an issue in the hunter/jumper world - what are everyone's proposals to remedy the situation? Is the answer to pull any horse that acts strange at any point in the day out of competition and have it drug tested, even if a cause for the strange behavior was found by a veterinarian and the horse given the OK to continue competing?

    For example: my horse used to practically throw himself to the ground if he even THOUGHT he saw a horsefly. Didn't matter if he was in the pasture or at the in-gate. One the immediate threat was gone, he was fine. I can't imagine how he would have reacted to being stung by a bee! How is that fair to me, the rider/owner/trainer/whatever, if my horse reacts like an idiot for something that's not even my fault and I'm pulled from competition because it was weird? It's not. And it's not fair to Lillie or anyone involved that we're automatically throwing "DRUGS!!!!!!!!!!!!" on the table.

    JMHO.
    Last edited by ybiaw; Feb. 27, 2013 at 10:58 AM. Reason: I keep thinking of more to say!
    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.


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  14. #374
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    I don't know if the horse was drugged or not but it seems to be pretty common knowledge that alot of A circuit hunters are being given calming agents. I give an oral supp so I am not anti calming but I think there is a pretty precarious ledge on injections. Not to mention the injections with other agents.

    I am not saying she did or she didn't or the horses connections did or did not but I guess I am alittle skeptical that a bee sting would bring a 1200 lb animal to the ground. I guess it could happen but again if that happened to a horse of mine they would be given the day off....PERIOD.
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart


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  15. #375
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    This is what I think is most sad:

    Even if this was just a bee sting incident, aren't many of these horses showing week in and week out? Wouldn't good horsemanship dictate that your horse just went through a traumatic event, and maybe you can skip 3 classes out of the 100+ the horse will do this year?


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  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by europa View Post
    I don't know if the horse was drugged or not but it seems to be pretty common knowledge that alot of A circuit hunters are being given calming agents. I give an oral supp so I am not anti calming but I think there is a pretty precarious ledge on injections. Not to mention the injections with other agents.

    I am not saying she did or she didn't or the horses connections did or did not but I guess I am alittle skeptical that a bee sting would bring a 1200 lb animal to the ground. I guess it could happen but again if that happened to a horse of mine they would be given the day off....PERIOD.
    I don't think the bee sting dropped the horse in the way your thinking. Probably it HURT and the horse dropped to rub the painful sting on the ground, not that the pain was so great the horses legs buckled. I'm sure the horse was colic-y looking and distressed, but it doesn't sound like his legs just dropped out from under him.

    Having been stung by bees, it hurts! But, after the initial pain, it doesn't impede the rest of my day. I would definitely ride my horse after a bee sting, as long as it wasn't in a place interfering with tack.


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  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
    I don't think the bee sting dropped the horse in the way your thinking. Probably it HURT and the horse dropped to rub the painful sting on the ground, not that the pain was so great the horses legs buckled. I'm sure the horse was colic-y looking and distressed, but it doesn't sound like his legs just dropped out from under him.

    Having been stung by bees, it hurts! But, after the initial pain, it doesn't impede the rest of my day. I would definitely ride my horse after a bee sting, as long as it wasn't in a place interfering with tack.
    This. Either the sting hurt, or the bee was still there and the thought by going to the ground he could rub it off. I've seen it happen with quite a few horses who end up with those giant horse flies (they call them b-52's sometimes)... as soon as that fly is on them, they are rubbing against a tree or throwing themselves to the ground to get them off.


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  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chef Jade View Post
    ... and maybe you can skip 3 classes out of the 100+ the horse will do this year?
    Except there is only ONE special night class for hunters each year on the big field at WEF during World Hunter Rider week, and the only way to qualify for it is by doing well in your division at that one show.

    Since I didn't see what happened to the horse at the ring that day, I have no comment to make about it. (Unlike many other people. )


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  19. #379
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    Off topic just for a moment....
    On the Bases Loaded video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkOxWkz88Qc
    why did the camera immediately pan away after the fall ?
    -Amor vincit omnia-



  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardi View Post
    Off topic just for a moment....
    On the Bases Loaded video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkOxWkz88Qc
    why did the camera immediately pan away after the fall ?
    It was probably panning over to me because I reflexively yelped when the horse's knees hit the ground. Hahahaha!
    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.



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