[magnolia73]

My argument was that he was not the person who decided what each horse should get. Under normal circustance a barn manager does not decide to give one horse Methocarbimal, while another horse gets Depo, and a third horse might get Bute or Banamine. Those decisions have always been made by a TRAINER, not by a barn manager. The barn manager's job is to carry out the trainers' orders

It's a hard call... given the potential for errors, even benign leading to suspension, I'd maybe want the person in charge of execution versus planning signing the paperwork if I had a big barn with a lot of staffing. If I was a BNT, with my reputation on the line and opportunity for errors pretty high, I'd have the Barn Manager sign. So much to lose if the groom measures some bute wrong or feed gets to the wrong horse or whatnot.

[Janeway]

1. A child? Really? She's 15. Not an adult, but not a child, either.
2. This "child" is probably more at risk anytime she steps foot into a GP ring. They had an explanation that was sufficient for them. Therefore the risk was no higher than it normally is for them.

Not that it makes a huge difference, but Lillie is 16 and probably has a driver's license. So I agree not really a child.

[Midge]

Lol...well said.Bee sting my a#$

Oh, good! So you can tell us what actually happened!

[JER]

Not that it makes a huge difference, but Lillie is 16 and probably has a driver's license. So I agree not really a child.

Except that she can't sign her own entries per the USEF, can she?

Speaking as an EMT, neither having a driver's license nor being 16 years old meets the criteria for giving consent for medical treatment. A 16 year-old is still a minor in most jurisdictions and under most circumstances.

[Angelico]

It's a hard call... given the potential for errors, even benign leading to suspension, I'd maybe want the person in charge of execution versus planning signing the paperwork if I had a big barn with a lot of staffing. If I was a BNT, with my reputation on the line and opportunity for errors pretty high, I'd have the Barn Manager sign. So much to lose if the groom measures some bute wrong or feed gets to the wrong horse or whatnot.

If I was the trainer, and a horse in my barn needed any sort of medication, I'd be administering it myself. To me, a horse that needs medicated is a big deal, not the norm. Of course, I'm not the head trainer of one of the top show barns in the country. I do however, take care of twenty racehorses every day and any medication is handled with the utmost care and carefulness.

If they are that worried about a groom mixing up meds, my concern is that it is so easy to do within that barn. Does EVERY horse have to be on some sort of controlled medication?

[RugBug]

Except that she can't sign her own entries per the USEF, can she?

Speaking as an EMT, neither having a driver's license nor being 16 years old meets the criteria for giving consent for medical treatment. A 16 year-old is still a minor in most jurisdictions and under most circumstances.

No one said she isn't a minor. We said she isn't a child. There's a difference.

[Fluffie]

If it matters, I had a horse stung on the upper eyelid by a bumble bee. Saw it happen (was grazing him at the time). His first reaction was to itch his eye on his leg. He then took off running back to the barn. So, his first reaction was to remove the bee, not buck or pitch a fit.
As far as I remember, I hadn't drugged him that day....

[jonesy]

Let's say "hypothetically" I am a mom of a junior rider and I am standing at the ring when this alleged event happened and lets say I went to video said event on my phone and realized, bad idea, all these BNTs are watching and surely there is enough proof this is happening. My kid is gonna get black balled if I show this video. Show management was there. Surely they would intervene. And yes poop and pee and yes seizure like actions and the appearance that this is what a dying animal would do, loosing bowels and horrible distress. Just sayin....

[JER]

No one said she isn't a minor. We said she isn't a child. There's a difference.

Is there?

The law defines a 'child' as any person who has not reached majority age, which is 18 in most states, although IIRC it's as old as 21 in some places.

If you're talking about horse shows and the 'child' designation, guess who was runner-up in 2012 for Best Child Rider on a Horse at Devon? Lillie Keenan.

So she's a child when it comes to tallying points and claiming prizes, and she's a child under the law.

[ynl063w]

Let's say "hypothetically" I am a mom of a junior rider and I am standing at the ring when this alleged event happened and lets say I went to video said event on my phone and realized, bad idea, all these BNTs are watching and surely there is enough proof this is happening. My kid is gonna get black balled if I show this video. Show management was there. Surely they would intervene. And yes poop and pee and yes seizure like actions and the appearance that this is what a dying animal would do, loosing S bowels and horrible distress. Just sayin....

I'm confused (which is a recurring theme on this thread) - were you there to witness this event or are you just talking out of your a$$ like 99% of the other posters on this thread?

[Kestrel]

At 16, would have done what your BNT and other adults around you told you to do, or would you have held your ground and not gotten on the horse? In my experience most 16 year olds will do what the trainer tells them. Most 16 year olds don't have mature decision-making skills - that's why they can't sign contracts, get married without parental permission, etc. Most would also say whatever they thought the trainer wanted them to say about an event. So no, she's not a child but don't automatically endow here with the decision-making skill of a secure, mature adult. There's a lot of grey shades inbetween.

[Angelico]

At 16, would have done what your BNT and other adults around you told you to do, or would you have held your ground and not gotten on the horse? In my experience most 16 year olds will do what the trainer tells them. Most 16 year olds don't have mature decision-making skills - that's why they can't sign contracts, get married without parental permission, etc. Most would also say whatever they thought the trainer wanted them to say about an event. So no, she's not a child but don't automatically endow here with the decision-making skill of a secure, mature adult. There's a lot of grey shades inbetween.

Actually, when I was fifteen years old I did show on the A circuit in the hunters with a trainer who got me some pretty nice catch rides. Not WEF or anything the caliber of what LK does, but still a respectable circuit. One day my trainer was caught drugging his hunters. I confronted him about it, when he replied "That's how it's done at the real shows," I told him "That's not how I'll ever do it and I refuse to be involved with it," and never looked back.

At fifteen I may not have been able to sign a marriage contract, but I WAS damn well able to determine right from wrong.

[Calamber]

Except that she can't sign her own entries per the USEF, can she?

Speaking as an EMT, neither having a driver's license nor being 16 years old meets the criteria for giving consent for medical treatment. A 16 year-old is still a minor in most jurisdictions and under most circumstances.

Besides the fact she is legally a child (child endangerment anyone), she is under the sway of quite a few people who really could not give a rat's ass if she or the horse were in any real danger. Clearly what was important to all involved that the horse got back up and acted like nothing had happened so what the hell, just send it back in to jump. Bee stings always cause excessive bowel movements? (if that indeed happened) or maybe only when it is accompanied by various "additives" already onboard.

[Calamber]

Thank you, right from wrong is a very obscure notion this days and seems to be almost an archaic idea.

[vineyridge]

What I think is interesting about the USEF Rule is that it seems to allow (with the OR) four different people to be acceptable as trainer on an entry blank.
1. Person responsible for the care of the horse. Who would that be? The person who designs the care program for the horse or the person who carries it out?
2. Person responsible for the training of the horse. Again, the question is whether the person who designs the training plan is responsible or the person who carries the training plan by riding, longeing, etc.
3. Person responsible for the custody of the horse. This might include the owner or the barn manager, depending on how custody is defined.
4. Person responsible for the performance of the horse. This might include the rider and/or the farm-trainer who is being paid by owners to do all the planning for training, to select riders, and for horse care.

Perhaps the USEF should simply get rid of all the other options and make the Person Responsible the person responsible for performance. Then the only options would be the rider and the "real trainer"--the one whose name gets called at the ring.

[Lulu]

Let's say "hypothetically" I am a mom of a junior rider and I am standing at the ring when this alleged event happened and lets say I went to video said event on my phone and realized, bad idea, all these BNTs are watching and surely there is enough proof this is happening. My kid is gonna get black balled if I show this video. Show management was there. Surely they would intervene. And yes poop and pee and yes seizure like actions and the appearance that this is what a dying animal would do, loosing bowels and horrible distress. Just sayin....

wow... is this (hypothetically) for real?

[leyla25]

this hypothetical scenario is exactly why nobody steps up about anything. The jrs will get black balled and any professional in their right mind wouldn't burn a bridge with a barn that buys tons of horses per year.

[lrp1106]

What I think is interesting about the USEF Rule is that it seems to allow (with the OR) four different people to be acceptable as trainer on an entry blank.
1. Person responsible for the care of the horse. Who would that be? The person who designs the care program for the horse or the person who carries it out?
2. Person responsible for the training of the horse. Again, the question is whether the person who designs the training plan is responsible or the person who carries the training plan by riding, longeing, etc.
3. Person responsible for the custody of the horse. This might include the owner or the barn manager, depending on how custody is defined.
4. Person responsible for the performance of the horse. This might include the rider and/or the farm-trainer who is being paid by owners to do all the planning for training, to select riders, and for horse care.

Perhaps the USEF should simply get rid of all the other options and make the Person Responsible the person responsible for performance. Then the only options would be the rider and the "real trainer"--the one whose name gets called at the ring.

It almost seems like this loophole was created (and then, ignored) on purpose...

[skydy]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...=heritage+farm
My opinion (again) post #79 ^. If USEF is serious about cleaning up the house, then they would follow the FEI lead on the doping problem. However they are not ,so here we are over and over..

This is nothing to do with the topic of this thread, just the outcroppings arising from it..

Many of us noticed the gigantic mess that the USEF rules caused when Mario Delaurier's mount tested positive for cocaine. Bruce Burr had signed as trainer and, as such, was suspended for 2 years.
He did not serve that suspension and no doubt did not deserve to. He continues to sign as trainer for Jane Clark's horses at WEF while Mario is no longer employed by Ms. Clark, who has given her mounts to Ben Maher.

USEF has shown itself to be completely incapable of dealing with the doping problem in any meaningful or intelligent manner.

[vineyridge]

Yes, the USEF changed its rules so the FEI Sanctions would not apply in National events. They did that after getting FEI approval for their own sanctions and then dropped their rule language adopting the FEI sanctions.