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  1. #201
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    Star's Ascent, it does make you less qualified to comment on the goings-on within barns on the A circuit. Sorry, but that's true. Sorry you don't like it. Commenting on riding and conformation is different than throwing a junior under the bus because you're speculating about something when it's in a situation you admit you're not familiar with.

    There is a huge difference between saying "I thought [some horse] looked off behind." and going ZOMG PEOPLE ARE DRUGGING!!!1!1! based on a freaking rumor and then when provided with both a statement from the rider AND some information from someone who would actually know the situation, ignoring that, clutching your pearls, and bemoaning the state of all these drugged-to-the-gills hunters.

    I've never been a log roller and I don't go commenting on whether log rollers drug themselves up or not because I don't know. Same thing...


    15 members found this post helpful.

  2. #202
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    I never through a junior under a bus. Where did I comment at all about the whole bee sting situation? I commented on the ability of the horses to be turned out. If I did throw the junior under the bus by all means show me where as I must have been having an out of body experience and don't recall writing anything to do with her. Neither have I commented on the drugging situation. That is for sure something I have not seen or experienced so I have no comment on that.

    And even though I didn't ride with the trainers I was around to see how things operated.



  3. #203
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    Yeah.. But here's the thing, I ride, I show, I jump, I know what a good rider looks like. I know what good equitation is. Your analogy doesn't quite work since I do the same things, just not at the level that you all might because I can't afford to (have things like a mortgage, dogs, horses to support, not much extra money since neither of us have fancy high paying jobs) Good riding is good riding no matter what level you are riding at. So someone at the local level can still know what good riding looks like. Just because we don't show there doesn't mean we don't go, don't watch, don't learn and don't know.

    Well the comment that went to just disappeared.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star's Ascent View Post
    Yeah.. But here's the thing, I ride, I show, I jump, I know what a good rider looks like. I know what good equitation is. Your analogy doesn't quite work since I do the same things, just not at the level that you all might because I can't afford to (have things like a mortgage, dogs, horses to support, not much extra money since neither of us have fancy high paying jobs) Good riding is good riding no matter what level you are riding at. So someone at the local level can still know what good riding looks like. Just because we don't show there doesn't mean we don't go, don't watch, don't learn and don't know.

    Well the comment that went to just disappeared.
    But it DOES mean you don't know. Yes, you might know how to watch and you might know what's being judged but it DOESN'T mean you know what goes on in the barns, based on one experience at an "A" show barn with no turnout.

    I watch and read about dressage, but you don't see me on the dressage forum commenting about things I don't know about.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star's Ascent View Post
    Yeah.. But here's the thing, I ride, I show, I jump, I know what a good rider looks like. I know what good equitation is. Your analogy doesn't quite work since I do the same things, just not at the level that you all might because I can't afford to (have things like a mortgage, dogs, horses to support, not much extra money since neither of us have fancy high paying jobs) Good riding is good riding no matter what level you are riding at. So someone at the local level can still know what good riding looks like. Just because we don't show there doesn't mean we don't go, don't watch, don't learn and don't know.

    Well the comment that went to just disappeared.
    Yeah, I decided I wasn't being that funny referencing Dance Moms so I ditched it.

    And I think it's a little silly to pretend that this thread is about "good riding" when, as I said before, it's pretty much a bunch of adults throwing a junior under the bus based on a rumor.

    Tha Ridge just said what I was about to get at.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star's Ascent View Post
    Yeah.. But here's the thing, I ride, I show, I jump, I know what a good rider looks like. I know what good equitation is. Your analogy doesn't quite work since I do the same things, just not at the level that you all might because I can't afford to (have things like a mortgage, dogs, horses to support, not much extra money since neither of us have fancy high paying jobs) Good riding is good riding no matter what level you are riding at. So someone at the local level can still know what good riding looks like. Just because we don't show there doesn't mean we don't go, don't watch, don't learn and don't know.

    Well the comment that went to just disappeared.
    How does this thread have anything to do with good riding? There's no doubt Lillie is an incredible rider.
    .


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star's Ascent View Post
    Yeah.. But here's the thing, I ride, I show, I jump, I know what a good rider looks like. I know what good equitation is. Your analogy doesn't quite work since I do the same things, just not at the level that you all might because I can't afford to (have things like a mortgage, dogs, horses to support, not much extra money since neither of us have fancy high paying jobs) Good riding is good riding no matter what level you are riding at. So someone at the local level can still know what good riding looks like. Just because we don't show there doesn't mean we don't go, don't watch, don't learn and don't know.

    Well the comment that went to just disappeared.

    I wouldn't say this thread has to do with good riding (Lillie Keenan's equitation is AMAZING, no doubt about it - she wouldn't be collecting all those Big Eq titles if she was a horrible rider) but rather may question the horsemanship and ethics of some trainers and riders that were involved in this situation (and ones that weren't), on more than just the drugging issue.

    Nobody is doubting your ability to understand how to ride a horse, but the politics and ins-and-outs of the A/AA circuit are pretty unbelievable and hard to understand if you haven't been there. Not everyone is a drug user - then every test would turn up positive. But it is present, in some amount which is probably impossible to determine.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  8. #208
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    Why is it that because you don't use drugs or your old world trainer doesn't you get upset if someone else has a different opinion? Do you know what goes on in every barn? Enjoy your happy experience.
    The fact is that drugging in the competitive horseshow world exists whether you want to believe it or not.
    I'm sure people would have been very upset if before Lance's story came out anyone would have said that he was using illegal drugs. Livestrong bracelets, the whole cancer story, etc. That is why it was so difficult for the people working with him who knew the facts to tell the story. People will not believe it. We have the same here, everyone loves winners and the cute stories behind them and they don't want to know some of the facts.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  9. #209
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    Because apparently my riding credentials in some way affect my ability to make observations about the barns I have experience with and their turnout. I was just making a simple comment about the barns I have been at and someone wanted came after me for making an observation and wanted those commenting to give their credentials. So to me that implies if you don't show on the A circuit you have no business commenting
    So since others gave their credentials I gave mine. Sure I don't know all the little intricacies with those barns but I was out there way more than their girls were and saw everyday how they handled their turnouts. Turnout is all I was talking about in my original comment. I wasn't the one that asked for everyone's credentials so that they could be taken seriously. That's ridiculous and had nothing to do with what I was commenting on.


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  10. #210
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    Stung by a bee, not stung by a bee. I think my absolute favorite part is that grooms are now down as "trainers". And the reason is because my lawyer said so.

    So just WTF does a trainer train? As far as I can see they can't even run a barn or otherwise they wouldn't be naming the groom as trainer. Oh that's right, nothing to see here. Business as usual. Here's something, if your trainer is replaced at one of the biggest shows and group of shows in the world by the groom, then I will suspect you're an idiot. And maybe I should just pay the groom your fees. But actually what I'd do is leave. Because as an owner that's what I'd do.If You can't stand up for the integrity of your barn, then what business do you have calling yourself a trainer. Blame the help. Classy.

    Bee sting. Dropping to the ground is the 2nd thing horses usually do after a bee sting. The first is usually exploding in some form. You know provided said horse has all his senses at the time. If I see one just drop what I don't think straight away is bee sting. But whatever.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.


    17 members found this post helpful.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post

    So just WTF does a trainer train? As far as I can see they can't even run a barn or otherwise they wouldn't be naming the groom as trainer. Oh that's right, nothing to see here. Business as usual. Here's something, if your trainer is replaced at one of the biggest shows and group of shows in the world by the groom, then I will suspect you're an idiot. And maybe I should just pay the groom your fees. But actually what I'd do is leave. Because as an owner that's what I'd do.If You can't stand up for the integrity of your barn, then what business do you have calling yourself a trainer. Blame the help. Classy.

    Terri
    Seriously, have you read the usef definition of trainer? It's the adult responsible for the care of the horse at the show. In this case, the person who takes care of the horse is the groom.

    The coach is the person who trains/rides/teaches etc.
    .



  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
    Seriously, have you read the usef definition of trainer? It's the adult responsible for the care of the horse at the show. In this case, the person who takes care of the horse is the groom.

    The coach is the person who trains/rides/teaches etc.
    You are mincing words.. I believe everyone knows the intent of the USEF rule.
    People do not pay training fees to grooms or barn managers. Grooms and barn managers do not decide to medicate horses without the knowledge or approval of the BNT who employs them, and those who do are not employed for long.

    If USEF continues to stick it's head in the sand, then who can blame BNT's or anyone else from taking advantage of the "loophole". Taking advantage of a loophole is a time honored tradition, unfortunately, and not only in the horse business.

    The horse may have been stung by a bee. Apparently, no one here witnessed the incident except for the rider who gave an interview to COTH.

    For those wondering why the freak out about this incident, remember , it hasn't been long since the pony died, without consequences to the party responsible, and I think people are still a bit raw about that debacle (of course there may be dingbats chiming in as well, and it is a bit strange get so worked up when the facts are so sketchy ,but I think most are well meaning).


    9 members found this post helpful.

  13. #213
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    If I were a distant owner of a horse, there's no way I would sign the form. Obviously I'd hire the best trainer I could, who I would hope would not dope, but would I trust that enough to put my name on the line... probably not unless I saw day to day care. Obviously you are trusting them with the horses welfare, but you never can be certain unless you are there all the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by leyla25 View Post
    Drugs plus hrs of lunging/riding is the perfect prep for success. This is why they have to have chiropractors, massages, hocks injected regularly etc to undo the damage.

    My horse, a $2k OTTB gets massages and chiro work. I don't even show. Apparently I just like being broke!



  14. #214
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    I don't know anything about this horse or the situation. And I'm not showing on the A circuit so I apparently have no right to have an opinion but I'm gonna say it anyway.

    I'm really bothered that some trainers find it necessary to have the grooms sign as trainer on the entry form. The groom may do the physical care if the horse but they are NOT making decisions about the care of the horse. If they were making decisions about care, feed, training, etc then they would make the big bucks. "Care and custody" doesn't mean the person who mucks the stall.

    The only reason I can think of to have your groom sign as trainer is to have a fall guy if the horse tests positive for something. If the groom really were responsible then he'd be up there getting his picture taken when the horse wins.

    IMHO the trainers need to grow a set and take responsibility for what happens in their barns. Having the person earning the least money in the organization as the person chosen to be the fall guy is unconscionable.

    Like I said, I'm not showing at A shows these days, so clearly my opinion has no wort, but I do have a conscience and a set of values and that's how I feel


    17 members found this post helpful.

  15. #215
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    Seriously, have you read the usef definition of trainer? It's the adult responsible for the care of the horse at the show. In this case, the person who takes care of the horse is the groom.
    Way back when I showed, our trainer (who was in charge of coaching, arranging care, vet coordination etc.) signed the form. Not the groom. She was "responsible" as she gave direction to the groom. Now I can see the definition of trainer applying to a person at the barn that is never at the ring, but makes direct decisions on feed, meds, what goes on back at the barn. So whether it is staff, the owner, the coach- whoever makes the call to give a horse some bute or a new supplement should sign the form.

    I do think that the drugtesting is a double edged sword. You can lose a lot of business for a minor error that one of your grooms execute. That's not really helpful for protecting animal welfare. But when animal welfare does come to play (that poor pony in the NYT)... something really should happen on behalf of participants.

    You don't have to be in the sport to question the welfare of the participants (and I think probably 95% are just fine). But I dunno, the level of interest and the ummm, creativity in methods of calming are going to raise eyebrows among most horsepeople. I've seen it locally.... and have to believe it trickled down from somewhere.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  16. #216
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    wow--just think if horse racing interpreted the definition of "trainer" that way--Dutrow would still be in business. Sounds ridiculous to me coming from a racing background.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  17. #217
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    Take a look at the entries of the top Grand Prix riders- Laura Kraut, Mclain Ward, Darragh Kenny, and Reed Kessler are the first to come to mind. They all have their managers as the trainer. In fact, I would say they somewhat started the practice. Not a strictly hunter practice.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #218
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    Big Grey Hunter - the definition of "trainer" is more broad than was in your post: It is:
    "Any adult, or adults who has the responsibility for the care, training, custody or
    performance of a horse."


    Yes, the groom may have responsibility for care and possibly custody. He/She does not have responsibility for training or the performance. And lets remember that most grooms do not have much decision making authority in terms of how the horse is managed: type/quantity of feed, what days it is worked, how much it jumps, whether it needs lunged on show days, whether its in need of supplements or joint injections, etc. MAYBE a groom would give a horse a shot, but that groom doesn't make the decision that it is needed.
    I think most people can probably agree that it was not the intent of USEF to have a bunch of grooms, some of which barely speak English, signing entry forms. And maybe we can agree that they could do a better job in the definition.
    We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........


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  19. #219
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    Exactly!!!
    If the trainer can't sign their own name as trainer then that in itself is a huge problem.
    Well said Terri!!!!

    QUOTE=Equilibrium;6858090]Stung by a bee, not stung by a bee. I think my absolute favorite part is that grooms are now down as "trainers". And the reason is because my lawyer said so.

    So just WTF does a trainer train? As far as I can see they can't even run a barn or otherwise they wouldn't be naming the groom as trainer. Oh that's right, nothing to see here. Business as usual. Here's , if your trainer is replaced at one of the biggest shows and group of shows in the world by the groom, then I will suspect you're an idiot. And maybe I should just pay the groom your fees. But actually what I'd do is leave. Because as an owner that's what I'd do.If You can't stand up for the integrity of your barn, then what business do you have calling yourself a trainer. Blame the help. Classy.

    Bee sting. Dropping to the ground is the 2nd thing horses usually do after a bee sting. The first is usually exploding in some form. You know provided said horse has all his senses at the time. If I see one just drop what I don't think straight away is bee sting. But whatever.

    Terri[/QUOTE]


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  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piggiejump View Post
    Take a look at the entries of the top Grand Prix riders- Laura Kraut, Mclain Ward, Darragh Kenny, and Reed Kessler are the first to come to mind. They all have their managers as the trainer. In fact, I would say they somewhat started the practice. Not a strictly hunter practice.

    So this makes it okay? Just because the top Grand Prix riders may have their managers signing as trainer that makes it okay for everyone to do?


    2 members found this post helpful.

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