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  1. #121
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    May. 22, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by lep View Post
    The horses are treated like kings in whose opinion? The horses'? I doubt it. Being stalled with hardly any (if any) turnout, and then when there is turnout, it's solidary to minimize the chance of any accidents/injuries (and I know some horses are tranq'd before being turned out to minimize the chance of the horses running around...i.e., acting like a horse). Perhaps they are treated like kings in the owners' opinions.
    You can use spell check you know.

    I rode at an A barn with some top horses and have worked at others and your comments are dead wrong.

    And I'm glad you get to go talk to all these top Hunter horses and ask their opinions.
    If you really want to do something, you’ll find a way. If you don’t, you’ll find an excuse.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  2. #122
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    May. 22, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eventer13 View Post
    I agree with lep. I think a lot of top horses (in all disciplines), getting chiro, massage, the best feed, the best farrier, and the best vet, living in a fancy barn nicer than 99% of people's houses would be happy to give some of that up for 24 hour turnout with a bunch of other horses rather than spending weeks on the road in a strange place. JMO.

    Actually, I think the less-expensive horses who get very good (if maybe not "the best") care, are the happiest. Not saying the others don't adjust or aren't happy. Just that, given the choice, I think they'd be much happier with a lower level ammy not working as hard, and spending more time just "being a horse."

    Do you realize these top farms have grass pasture turn outs and the horses spend much more of their day out in the field than the typical ammy horse ever would.

    You guys should go ride your horses and stop picking apart others.
    If you really want to do something, you’ll find a way. If you don’t, you’ll find an excuse.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  3. #123
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    I don't know, my (ammy) horse is out 24/7, and loves it. Most ammy's horses I know are out as much as possible, unless the weather is nasty.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  4. #124
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    Mar. 25, 2012
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    I don't think it matters if its a ammy horse, professionals horse, brown horse, green horse. Every barn will do things differently. I've seen it all in MY experience. Some get all day, some get an hour or two, some get every couple weeks.

    Lol


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #125
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    Sep. 17, 2011
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    Cheney, WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie locks View Post
    Do you realize these top farms have grass pasture turn outs and the horses spend much more of their day out in the field than the typical ammy horse ever would.

    You guys should go ride your horses and stop picking apart others.
    The A barn I was at didn't have grass turnout. There were smaller sand arenas that they were turned out into for 30 to 60 min on certain days. Otherwise the only time they were out was being ridden. Actually the other A barn I was at also didn't have grass turnout. They got small paddocks barely bigger than their stalls which MAY have had grass in it at some point. Otherwise when they were ridden is when they got out. Now those are the two that I spent at least a few months at as opposed to just visiting others. So those 2 follow the limited turnout practice.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #126
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by doublesstable View Post
    Most of these Hunters get treated like kings, better than many horse I see around...
    Meh, I think it would be more accurate to describe them as "treated like soviet gymnasts": They get the best of what's available in some respects, but there are performance requirements that trump all else. In this situation, as in the horse one, everyone likes noting the parts of the extraordinary "love and care" that they do do, and tries very, very hard to not see the excesses or long term damage.

    And I'm not judgy! I tell people that I treat my horse this way-- the best of everything, but by God, he will do as he asked. I love this horse intensely, personally or "in detail." He feels seen and considered by me, and he likes being so important.

    What saves it for me? I don't have enough money to be able to hurt him bad at shows. And I am self-aware enough to know the terms of my relationship with my horse. You won't find me crossing a line without knowing that I'm doing it. IMO, this "Well, I didn't know" buck-passing is a problem. So is the normalization of a lot of things in succession until someone on the outside says "WTF are you guys doing?" And people on the inside didn't notice the slide.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    12 members found this post helpful.

  7. #127
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    Oct. 22, 2009
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    Sometimes I wonder if most of the posters on this board have ever been showed on the AA circuit or trained with a BNT, or if you are all just getting your info from an extended game of telephone. Most of the *zomg! those poor abused , drugged horses! The riders can't ride, the trainers all drug, the judged are biased! It's AWFUL!!!1!!1* posts just make me roll my eyes.

    Seriously, it sounds like the uneducated crap the anti-carraige people say.
    .


    15 members found this post helpful.

  8. #128
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    Oct. 26, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    The trainer of Parkland is listed as Gerardo Escalara (Heritage Farm) ,Rider Lillie Keenan ,Owner Jennifer Gates.
    Why is this acceptable!? To name a GROOM as the fall man... Opps I meant "trainer". It would be neat if trainers actually had to have some sort of certification, I would like to see Mr. Escalara ride the horse in a class... Or warm up his riders.... You know, like a TRAINER would.

    The level of corruption in this sport is astonishing.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  9. #129
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    Aug. 12, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by EML1960 View Post
    I agree, no one should fault a child or any rider under the guidance of professionals managing the care of a horse.
    No, sorry, I call BS. As a kid I could tell when the footing was too hard for my iffy-legged OTTB and know I needed to scratch when I was TWELVE. If he'd have ever gone down at ringside I would have been screaming for the nearest VET, not putting foot in stirrup and thinking "Gee, I hope someone didn't overdo it on the prep." Lillie's old enough to know better, has been around enough to know better, and needs to learn that people will respect her more if she does walk away.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


    6 members found this post helpful.

  10. #130
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    Oct. 22, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appsolute View Post
    Why is this acceptable!? To name a GROOM as the fall man... Opps I meant "trainer". It would be neat if trainers actually had to have some sort of certification, I would like to see Mr. Escalara ride the horse in a class... Or warm up his riders.... You know, like a TRAINER would.

    The level of corruption in this sport is astonishing.
    USEF says the trainer is an adult that is responsible for the care of the horse at shows. It has nothing to do with who rides, trains, or teaches the horse/rider at shows. The coach is the instructor.
    .


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #131
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    May. 22, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star's Ascent View Post
    The A barn I was at didn't have grass turnout. There were smaller sand arenas that they were turned out into for 30 to 60 min on certain days. Otherwise the only time they were out was being ridden. Actually the other A barn I was at also didn't have grass turnout. They got small paddocks barely bigger than their stalls which MAY have had grass in it at some point. Otherwise when they were ridden is when they got out. Now those are the two that I spent at least a few months at as opposed to just visiting others. So those 2 follow the limited turnout practice.
    These are just a few of the top Hunter barns and as you can see horses are actually turned out in grass fields.

    http://www.heritagefarm.com/

    http://winleyfarm.com/facilities/

    http://pjpfarm.com/FACILITIES.html


    Keep searching on line and you will find the TOP riders have turn out.
    If you really want to do something, you’ll find a way. If you don’t, you’ll find an excuse.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #132
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    Jun. 11, 2004
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    I don't usually wander over to Hunters, but this thread caught my eye (I think it was the Bill Gates reference).

    First, horses HAVE complained through-out the ages. It's just we made them do it anyway. Human beings think every living creature on this planet is there to serve us. We are so proud of our big brain we thing we know it all. It is a characteristic that will be the death of us yet...but I digress.

    Whenever and wherever there is competition to be "best" there will be underhanded dealings to reach that podium, to grab that 50 cent ribbon or $10 trophy. If $$ is involved, it gets much, MUCH worse. I doubt any equine sport is totally clean -- certainly not the ones I've been exposed to (which would be racing, dressage, WP, Saddlebred competitions & halter of several breeds). There are drugs & abuse in ALL of them.

    Surprisingly, you know the horses who are treated best of all in sport? The professional bucking horse!! You ask a HORSE what sort of life they'd like, and they'd choose bucking for a living. Work 2-8 mins a year, then sit around and eat the rest of the time...but STILL get the worming, hoof/dental care, etc. And they don't even start them till they are FOUR!! Great life. But this is the one horse that speaks out "NO!!" in a big, loud voice and most of humanity would have no use for them...

    And 2tempe, as for your question about the vet: that is the major reason I decided not to be a vet all those years ago. People said, "but why not -- you LOVE animals!!" Yes, I do...but vets don't work for animals...they work for PEOPLE. PEOPLE write the checks...and if there is a person willing to write a big enough check, there will be a VET (also a person) willing to take it.

    Surely all you folks realize that, right? Still, it's depressing to think that at my age I can still be disappointed in folks...you'd think by now I'd be immune.

    Well, thank goodness I don't sell many horses to the H/J world...


    8 members found this post helpful.

  13. #133
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    May. 22, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Surprisingly, you know the horses who are treated best of all in sport? The professional bucking horse!! You ask a HORSE what sort of life they'd like, and they'd choose bucking for a living. Work 2-8 mins a year, then sit around and eat the rest of the time...but STILL get the worming, hoof/dental care, etc. And they don't even start them till they are FOUR!! Great life. But this is the one horse that speaks out "NO!!" in a big, loud voice and most of humanity would have no use for them...
    This just made me laugh. Do you know what a bucking strap is? It is that piece of leather yanked up around the horses flank. That's why they buck. Often those horses sit in pens full of mud and manure, their feet look like crap. It's disgusting.

    I edited my post to add a picture of said bucking strap. I cannot believe you think this is a good life for a horse.

    http://www.equineandwildlifeartist.com/soldartwork.html

    I do agree with you on the horses objecting for decades but do it anyway. But often the type of horses that get nappy will not make a good hunter anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    And 2tempe, as for your question about the vet: that is the major reason I decided not to be a vet all those years ago. People said, "but why not -- you LOVE animals!!" Yes, I do...but vets don't work for animals...they work for PEOPLE. PEOPLE write the checks...and if there is a person willing to write a big enough check, there will be a VET (also a person) willing to take it.
    Many GOOD vets will not cater to whatever. If you don't have the (blank) to stand up for the animal then yea, you shouldn't be a vet.
    If you really want to do something, you’ll find a way. If you don’t, you’ll find an excuse.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #134
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    Jun. 26, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
    Sometimes I wonder if most of the posters on this board have ever been showed on the AA circuit or trained with a BNT, or if you are all just getting your info from an extended game of telephone. Most of the *zomg! those poor abused , drugged horses! The riders can't ride, the trainers all drug, the judged are biased! It's AWFUL!!!1!!1* posts just make me roll my eyes.

    Seriously, it sounds like the uneducated crap the anti-carraige people say.

    I would say "most" may be an exaggeration. Definitely "some of the posters".

    FWIW, I do show on the A circuit (I tend to avoid Florida though, way too much going on for my taste), I do show with a BNT, and I don't believe all horses are abused/drugged. Up until this incident, I was under the impression that Heritage didn't drug, actually, and that Lillie Keenan was a great hunter rider. Now I am not so sure.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  15. #135
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    Dec. 22, 2009
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    Lower Saxony, Germany
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    And again I am happy Germany doesn't have hunters....

    Some horses fall easier than others but if your horse fell while hanging out I would worry....a lot...

    In the international rules and in the german rules, i don't know if it's the same in other european countries, the rider is the responsible person. Having this rule in hunterland would help a lot. And I don't understand why there has to be a trainer?! For juniors the parents would be the responsible ones and if your over 18 it's your problem and your ban not your trainers. I just don't understand this idea of a trainer or anybody else who you put in as a trainer if the rider is not responsible. If I get a ticket for speeding, I can not accuse my driving teacher.....


    11 members found this post helpful.

  16. #136
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    Mar. 11, 2005
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    CO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie locks View Post
    This just made me laugh. Do you know what a bucking strap is? It is that piece of leather yanked up around the horses flank. That's why they buck. Often those horses sit in pens full of mud and manure, their feet look like crap. It's disgusting.

    I edited my post to add a picture of said bucking strap. I cannot believe you think this is a good life for a horse.

    http://www.equineandwildlifeartist.com/soldartwork.html
    Now wait a minute, I married a rodeo man and we did have bucking stock for a while. The majority of bucking stock do NOT live pens full of manure and mud. They may be there for the short time of the rodeo event they're performing in, but not LIVING there. They're kept on large (as in 100+ acres) grass pastures and supplemented with good quality hay. Are there exceptions? Sure! But those are also the brokers who are quickly noted as poor to use and usually go out of business quickly. The best of the best follow a strict breeding program (these lines produce the best buck, are hardy, good bone, good feet...etc. Even if it IS generally, but not always, pasture breeding.)

    As for the bucking strap? It's a padded length of leather with a buckle. That's it. They're not "yanked" on. Not even on the bulls. They are MUCH less tight than any girth or cinch would ever be. It doesn't take much to tickle a flank and get a buck. Have you ever been on a Western horse where the flank cinch has either come loose of the cinch or is not properly attached to begin with? All I can say is HANG ON! Because it's one wild ride. That's all it takes!
    The remainder of the time these horses are *GASP* horses!

    Even my horses lived outside 24/7 in a big pasture. With other horses. For a while with our bucking stock (we never had breeding stock). Where they could run around, forage, and possibly get hurt. And the ponies I work with now live out 24/7, too. Except at shows.

    The only horse I've ever had trouble keeping weight on, and had HORRIBLE feet (holy crap, his shoes were expensive!) was an OTTB that would tear fences down to come in. So, he was stalled 24/7 with only riding as his only "outside" time. He was also the ONLY horse I've ever had who would welt up over bug bites. Nobody else ever showed a welt if they got stung or bitten.

    I won't comment on the vet thing since a lot of people really do sell out to the client instead of taking care of the patient.

    Maybe Parkland was stung by a bee. Maybe he wasn't, but it sounded good. Only those who are responsible for his care know for sure. But he really did look unsound behind last night. And completely exhausted.
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique


    11 members found this post helpful.

  17. #137
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    USEF rules are quite different from the International rules, or the rules in many other countries. They are more like the rules for TB racing. The "Trainer" is the "responsible person, and the Trainer is defined as "the adult responsible for the care of the horse." (Not the person responsibe for instructing, coaching, or riding.)

    In some cases, the rider is a catch-rider, and has never seen the horse before. It would not be fair to hold the rider reponsible for the care of the horse, of which they may be completely ignorant. Just as it would not be fair to hold the jockey responsible for a positive drug test in horse racing.

    My horses live at home and I am responsible for their care. Therefore I sign as the "Trainer". For a Junior who kees the horses at home, the parent signs as "Trainer", even if the parent never goes near the horses.

    For horses in full training board at a show barn, the barn is responsible for their care. Someone at the barn signs as trainer, and is the first person the USEF will come after if there is a positive drug test.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowerSaxony_Jumper View Post
    In the international rules and in the german rules, i don't know if it's the same in other european countries, the rider is the responsible person. Having this rule in hunterland would help a lot. And I don't understand why there has to be a trainer?! For juniors the parents would be the responsible ones and if your over 18 it's your problem and your ban not your trainers. I just don't understand this idea of a trainer or anybody else who you put in as a trainer if the rider is not responsible. If I get a ticket for speeding, I can not accuse my driving teacher.....
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #138
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    Feb. 1, 2013
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    I like to think we are least starting to head in the right direction. 20 years ago, was there the idea of "natural" horsekeeping? Slow feeders? Barefoot horses? Not so much. And thanks to modern technology, at least there are more consequences for mistreating animals because of wonderful things like COTH forums and facebook; rumors or not, the awareness is getting stronger. And I do agree that management practices, such as turnout time, are evolving, because the evidence is there: horses that can move and eat all day are much, much less likely to colic, to injure themselves, to develop bordeom habits, etc not because they are "happy" , but because they are living closer their natural state. Its not rocket science, it shouldn't be controversial. Its common sense.

    Vets are in incredibely difficult situations. If a vet doesn't give the prognosis the rider/trainer/owner was looking for, what to keep them from finding the next vet in line who would? Changing the vets main objective starts with owners and organizations, to take away that motive to serve people over the animals.

    Repeating here, but horse mistreatment is absolutely in every discipline. No one should be pointing fingers over the fence.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  19. #139
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    May. 22, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenike View Post
    The majority of bucking stock do NOT live pens full of manure and mud. They may be there for the short time of the rodeo event they're performing in, but not LIVING there.
    So you are saying the same thing I said "they sit in pens of mud and manure" AND that's exactly where I have seen the pens of mud and manure, at the event they are performing at. I never said living in. But I'm sure they enjoy the wait before their performance and are looking forward to the moment when they get their padded bucking strap on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kenike View Post
    As for the bucking strap? It's a padded length of leather with a buckle. That's it. They're not "yanked" on. Not even on the bulls. They are MUCH less tight than any girth or cinch would ever be. It doesn't take much to tickle a flank and get a buck.

    Yeah that justifies it, it's padded.
    If you really want to do something, you’ll find a way. If you don’t, you’ll find an excuse.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #140
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    Dec. 22, 2009
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    Lower Saxony, Germany
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    I understand that but to me it don't helps with the drugging problem.
    I would be pretty angry with my trainer if my horse was drugged and showed up in a test. Even more when it's my name and money that is accused with the drugging.
    I think i would help to put more pressure on the rider. I don't have an idea how to deal with the catch riding problem but if you show a horse some how regular you should know what is in it. No more "Oh I didn't know my horse was drugged. Bad groom/Trainer/etc!"
    How would parents react when little susie isn't allowed to show for a while because the BNT had the horse drugged?
    For catch riding i have no solution but i would make it the same! People have to be really, really scared to be found drugging and not this scary movie-kind of scared as it seems to be today....
    Last edited by LowerSaxony_Jumper; Feb. 24, 2013 at 02:57 PM. Reason: spelling



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