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  1. #21
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    Putting aside for a minute the idea that someone is trying to get sympathy sex....

    Change is really really hard for people. I can't believe what people will endure rather than facing up to problems. And then when people do decide to separate, it never works out the way they think. Some guys don't have much self insight. Some figure they are married, that's the way it's supposed to be, everyone is unhappy in marriage, so things are normal. They hate the idea of being alone. and so on.

    But for the most part, I think a lot of guys would rather deal with the devil they know rather than a new devil, no matter how bad the current one is. And trying to change is just really really hard...


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  2. #22
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    Also, oldernewbie, there are many, many people who are "relationship monkeys." They don't leave one branch until they have a firm grasp on another branch.

    So some of these whiners are actually looking for another relationship, not just sex. BUT they won't do without the benefits of the relationship that they are in, unless they have another relationship to go to. It is really dishonest to the individual with whom they have the current relationship, but many times I think that they won't even admit what they are doing to themselves. They just will not voluntarily be alone.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller


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  3. #23
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    Could it be that true feelings are not said because it will come back to haunt.


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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
    Also, oldernewbie, there are many, many people who are "relationship monkeys." They don't leave one branch until they have a firm grasp on another branch.
    Ha - I've never heard that expression before. I'm going to have to use it!


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercedespony View Post
    Ha - I've never heard that expression before. I'm going to have to use it!
    I have found it to be a very apt description of people who may be miserable in their relationship but won't leave it until they are involved in another relationship. Pretty common, IME.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller


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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr View Post
    It is funny to compare your post with your signature line, Trakehner.

    Community property means what men often take for granted as being theirs exclusively, isn't really. When it's divided, it is a reality check, not being screwed.
    Some states aren't community property states. When things aren't divided equally or fairly (based on the sex of the parties)...it's not a reality check, it's a screwing. I had a female attorney, she had a junkyard dog attorney. No cheating, no abuse (except verbal abuse by her)....and I still lost to a spoiled wealthy "victim" because she was a she (my lawyers comment, not just my feelings).
    "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"



  7. #27
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    I don't understand why women automatically get alimony in some places. My feeling is, if there are kids, BOTH parents need to contribute 50%. If the woman isn't working outside the home, then she needs to get her butt out there and start bringing in some money. I have worked since college, for 30 years, with 3 months off per child. If I didn't work, then we couldn't have afforded kids at all. It seems like a lot of courts thing women are entitled to alimony just because "it's always been that way."
    I realize that I'm generalizing here, but as is often the case when I generalize, I don't care. ~ Dave Barry



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
    I have found it to be a very apt description of people who may be miserable in their relationship but won't leave it until they are involved in another relationship. Pretty common, IME.

    Its funny you say that. My friends parents divorced a few years ago. The wife's lawyer is a long time, very good and well known divorce lawyer in our area and he's writing a book about divorce. He asked the wife if there was another woman the husband was leaving her for. Oh no, there is no one else . The lawyer said he has yet to have a divorce case yet that the husband filed for when the husband didn't already have another woman he was leaving his wife for. And he said that if she finds out if there was another woman to let him know. Well a year later she finds out that for the last 2-3 years of her marriage her husband was having an affair with her best friend. This was a man who was miserable in the marriage for years (friend says her dad is very self centered and was not a good husband despite having a good relationship with him herself) but would not actually leave the marriage until he had someone to leave the wife for. The "best friend" and the husband planned it all out. Best friend left her husband first and then they waited a year for the husband to leave his wife, so as to not raise suspicion. Later on they tried to play it off like they only got involved after the split, but that wasn't the case. So I guess the wife's divorce lawyer right.... in his experience I guess.


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guin View Post
    I don't understand why women automatically get alimony in some places. My feeling is, if there are kids, BOTH parents need to contribute 50%. If the woman isn't working outside the home, then she needs to get her butt out there and start bringing in some money. I have worked since college, for 30 years, with 3 months off per child. If I didn't work, then we couldn't have afforded kids at all. It seems like a lot of courts thing women are entitled to alimony just because "it's always been that way."

    I think alimony is useful, especially when the couple together decided for one of the partners to forgo a career in order for them to stay home and raise THEIR children. It's totally not fair for someone to spend the time raising the kids and not develop their career to only be dumped by their partner once the kids are raised. And then what are they supposed to do? Get a job? Well yeah, but what kind of job would they get after being out of the workforce for 20 years?

    As far as I know the amount of alimony if any is dependent upon the income of the spouse during marriage. At least in my area anyway.


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  10. #30
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    aren't most state 50/50%? seems fair to me. I am going thru the process right now, and without getting into details, thought that was the case. He actually filed, which was fine, but had asked me to wait...I guess so he could file first which I found rather annoying, as now I have to pay an attorney to talk to him instead of our typical texts, emails.. now, wants to talk about it...goodness, you can't have it both ways, can you? I guess 50/50 makes sense to me, and if there are kids, support for the kids, dependent on income.

    anyway you cut it, divorce sucks. But life is REALLY short, so if you're miserable, do something and try to build your yellow brick road, brick by wee little brick. I cannot imagine getting to the end of life and thinking...Gee...why did I stay with someone who did not help me be the best person I could be? And ladies, we ARE responsible for our horses, and if they come first, that is fine, just hope he has something that comes first, too. Passions must match, even if they are not horses, but something else. He gets his "thing" that makes him happy, be it whatever it is... (as long as he is faithful in body, mind and spirit to you and your marriage - if you can't be faithful why be married???!)
    I have too many ponies but love 'em all!

    http://foxview-farm.blogspot.com/



  11. #31
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    My lawyer told me that the spouse that wants the divorce has known that they wanted out for, on average, 18 months. To the OP, I have worked on all male crews for over thirty years. A man isn't miserable in his marriage unless he wants to be.
    "All top hat and no canter". *Graureiter*


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karosel View Post
    I think alimony is useful, especially when the couple together decided for one of the partners to forgo a career in order for them to stay home and raise THEIR children. It's totally not fair for someone to spend the time raising the kids and not develop their career to only be dumped by their partner once the kids are raised. And then what are they supposed to do? Get a job? Well yeah, but what kind of job would they get after being out of the workforce for 20 years?

    As far as I know the amount of alimony if any is dependent upon the income of the spouse during marriage. At least in my area anyway.
    It's slowly moving away from this "every woman gets alimony and custody of the children" mindset. In my state, alimony is only granted in extreme cases (such as a former stay at home mom or physically unable to work) or if the marriage was long term (usually over 10 years) and there is a MAJOR gap in income.

    Also in my state the whole "woman get's sole custody of the kid simply because she's the woman" has gone out the window. The courts will not give sole custody to one parent unless there are some extreme circumstance such as abuse by one parent or abandonment. Even the crappiest parent, as long as they cause no danger, will be granted joint custody. The parents both have joint custody, but that doesn't mean a 50/50 split. The courts, in this county at least, would like for it to be 50/50 but it's just not possible for everyone, so child support is figured out by how many nights per month the child spends with each parent and difference in incomes.

    The reason they push for the joint custody is so that both parents have a say in major life decisions of the child and so each parent can keep a meaningful relationship with the child and so one parent can't refuse to let the other see the child.

    I hope that this is the mind set which the entire country will slowly shift to. Why should the mother automatically get full custody simply because she has a uterus? If the man has been a good father the entire time of the marriage/relationship then he absolutely should have a say in what happens in the life of his child and see the child half the time if he wants to. (It's actually ILLEGAL in my state for a judge to make custody judgements based on sex)

    More and more women are working full time and contributing equally to the household, so the whole "she's the mother, and the one that raised him, so she should get the kid" is become more and more irrelevant and both parents play a large part in the raising of the child. It takes both a man and a women to make a child, and the father, being physically and mentally capable, should be allowed to have a large part in the lives of their child.


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  13. #33
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    life is only short if you are happy. If you are unhappy---life is pretty damn long.

    I always tell people that life is just too long to be miserable.
    http://kaboomeventing.com/
    http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
    Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!


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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
    Also, oldernewbie, there are many, many people who are "relationship monkeys." They don't leave one branch until they have a firm grasp on another branch.
    My new favorite phrase!

    Went through a 4 year relationship with exSO.
    Unbeknownst to me, his marriage wasn't as clean a break leading up to meeting me as I thought. It was really horrid, and frankly, she's a bit scary...so he really did need to be out of there. So, well, um, er, okay... Plus he really had so many things on my list. Even horse related...

    Yet I continued to hear for years about how awful everything was. Then realized as we approached different problems and tried to resolve them - work, bills, friends, kids. He had no satisfaction in having things resolved. Everything had to be a crisis. Things couldn't remain nice and quiet for long.

    So 4 years with exSO, and his dragging out his divorce as dramatically as possible, I threw up my hands. It did eventually become final, but his life is an even bigger whirlwind. He's dated scores of women, and settled down with none.

    Of course crises central was also just like my exDH. And I had hung on to my marriage for as long as I did, because a) it's the right thing to do, and b) my parents argued like banshees, but when they got older, figured it out and were quite enjoyable. Thought the exDH would grow up. Nope, he was a crisis mongerer who finally thew himself under the bus one too many times.

    So from this point on, will have nothing to do with anyone unless the ink is dry on the divorce papers. Have met a couple of very nice possibilities. But when hearing they are only separated, and haven't even filed yet, I've walked. (Let alone the married ones!!)

    Just have no patience with those men who have to have a shoulder to cry on constantly, can't get out of their own way, and can't move forward. Don't want to be the one holding his hand through everything. I didn't when I got divorced. Made the break clean.

    A relationship has a better chance when each individual has placed themselves in a position to be in a relationship. And not looking for someone to be a kleenex first. It should be built on strengths and interests. Not shared crises, and always looking for the next, and the next. I love tackling problems, and solving them together. But not when that is one's entire purpose in life.
    Being right half the time beats being half-right all the time. Malcolm Forbes


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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guin View Post
    I don't understand why women automatically get alimony in some places. My feeling is, if there are kids, BOTH parents need to contribute 50%. If the woman isn't working outside the home, then she needs to get her butt out there and start bringing in some money. I have worked since college, for 30 years, with 3 months off per child. If I didn't work, then we couldn't have afforded kids at all. It seems like a lot of courts thing women are entitled to alimony just because "it's always been that way."
    I don't believe that this is true anymore. Even when I was in law school over 30 years ago things were changing in reponse to societal changes.

    Yes, division of assets is usually 50-50. But these days alimony is apt to be what was called "rehabilitative alimony." That is, alimony for a long enough time (2 years at the most) that the spouse with less income can support himself/herself. If the spouse is already working, then no alimony is common. If the spouse is disabled and cannot work, then the spouse who is an earner will have to pay alimony because public policy is to prevent the ex-spouse from becoming a dependent of the government.

    Alimony goes both ways. Where the wife is the main earner in the household, she will have to pay alimony to her ex-spouse. That is becoming increasingly common.
    Last edited by Eclectic Horseman; Feb. 24, 2013 at 09:32 AM.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by annikak View Post
    aren't most state 50/50%? seems fair to me.
    41 states are "equitable distribution" states. Based on what I read, the court decides what is fair based on what each spouse earned or what they can earn, length of marriage, child rearing responsibility, etc.

    ETA: That is, of course, that there is no pre-nup or each person can amicably parcel out their assets.


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  17. #37
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    There is a sense of failure about a relationship that is on a ventilator and in some venues a social stigma, too. "Other people" get divorced.

    Also a sense of 'half a loaf is better than none'.

    When people get resigned and depressed, living lives of quiet desperation, it requires a lot of energy to make major changes with no clear prospect of a path to happiness on the other side.
    If I knew what I were doing, why would I take lessons?

    "Things should be as simple as possible,
    but no simpler." - Einstein



  18. #38
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    especially when the couple together decided for one of the partners to forgo a career in order for them to stay home and raise THEIR children. It's totally not fair for someone to spend the time raising the kids and not develop their career to only be dumped by their partner once the kids are raised. And then what are they supposed to do? Get a job? Well yeah, but what kind of job would they get after being out of the workforce for 20 years?
    you'd have to be a total idiot to agree to be a non-working spouse these days. My mom's generation it was "what you did", and we saw many of her friends end up in abject poverty after the husband traded in wifey for a younger model.
    Adults should be responsible and support themselves. Alimony should be abolished. Stay at home moms should not exist (unless independently wealthy, then do whatever you like).

    I think most people would be much happier if our cultural bias for valuing life-long relationships was abandoned. Most relationships seem to have a natural lifespan of 2 years or 7 years- if we accepted this fact, and agreed to "get out" as soon as we spotted the signs of the relationship ending, we wouldn't all spend time being miserable trying to revive the dead relationship.


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    you'd have to be a total idiot to agree to be a non-working spouse these days. My mom's generation it was "what you did", and we saw many of her friends end up in abject poverty after the husband traded in wifey for a younger model.

    Adults should be responsible and support themselves. Alimony should be abolished. Stay at home moms should not exist (unless independently wealthy, then do whatever you like).
    Given the failure rates, I agree about the stay-at-home situation, whether that's the husband or the wife, unless that person is financially independent and doesn't wish a traditional 9-5.

    I'm not sure that "trad[ing] in wifey for a younger model" quite squares with the less stereotypical more authentic discontents this thread has been exploring, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    I think most people would be much happier if our cultural bias for valuing life-long relationships was abandoned. Most relationships seem to have a natural lifespan of 2 years or 7 years- if we accepted this fact, and agreed to "get out" as soon as we spotted the signs of the relationship ending, we wouldn't all spend time being miserable trying to revive the dead relationship.
    I think you're right about the lifelong marriage model breaking down, but I'm not sure that identifying relationship cycle intervals as irreducible primaries without wondering why those cycles might be in play is a reason to throw in the towel.

    My guess is that the wheels-coming-off after two years may be because the pair wasn't deeply compatible to begin with, the novelty has played out and there just aren't sufficient connections to sustain a relationship.

    Track-jumping after seven -- a notion going back forever -- seems to me more likely due to a genuine desire for permanence on both sides eventually being trumped by the grinding down consequences over time of poor interpersonal and relationship skills well past the point of no return, or the dysfunction of the obsolete traditional marriage gender role model in the modern world.

    If couples would get some kind of relationship counseling long before one partner is ready to bolt, while there is ample good will and commitment on both sides there would be fewer such derailments. As for counseling, if ONE partner thinks there's a need for it, there's a need for it, whether the other one feels that way or not. If the other one won't go, it's already clear that the relationship is subordinated by that partner to other considerations.
    If I knew what I were doing, why would I take lessons?

    "Things should be as simple as possible,
    but no simpler." - Einstein


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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
    I wish that I could "thumbs up" this twice. I mean really. Whining to a member of the opposite sex (who is not a family member) about your marriage is a common pick up tactic. I guess it helps them rationalize their infidelity, as well as working to get a woman to discuss inappropriate, intimate subjects with them. Yuck. Tell them that you are not a professional and that they should get some counseling.
    No kidding!! Even if you are having problems in your relationship, one should NEVER go to a person of the opposite sex to "vent". It only leads to problems...and cheating. If you are unhappy, leave!



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