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  1. #201
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    bad parenting?

    The jury is out on that.

    but certainly cruddy neighbors....

    It is really something to ask the person who is not involved in the creation of the problem to suck it up

    Obviously the parents are oblivious - or don't give a rats behind - to the fact that their lifestyle is having a negative impact on their neighbors.

    ceiling fans, sound proofing, moving are considerable expenses...

    (and if after 4 month the child is still crying every morning for 15-30 minutes, the concept is clearly not working.)

    Nobody is asking for the parents to smother the child...but apparently (yes, we only heard the one side of the story) there is no effort made to keep at least the morning hours more quiet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    It's biased assumption to support argument.

    The problem is the OP's building seems to be lacking in any noise muffling insulation.
    OP herself stated that she can hear everything the neighbors do, and that it's the early morning crying that wakes her up.
    A baby crying is not an issue. It does not automatically point to bad parenting or inconsiderate people.
    The OP's own statements show exactly what the problem is: the building construction. THAT is what needs to be addressed and people in a co-op, apartment or condo have the right to a certain level of noise reduction...and the owners of the building have the *duty* to supply it. The problem is not the baby, it's parents or even the OP.
    A parent shouldn't have to worry that their baby might cry and wake up a neighbor just as a neighbor shouldn't have to worry a baby crying a floor away will wake them up.

    Everything else is bias-expanded conjecture on either side.
    Sure, when I made my arguments, I made some assumptions. The question is, is it biased, when the assumption is also a likely scenario?

    The hypothesis is, the parents either tried their best to alleviate the problem, or not.

    And my assumption is, either scenario has at least 50% of probability.

    Agree though, the building has some improvements to make...



  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    I hope you never have( or had) children.
    Again, you pro-kid types need to stop with the ad hominem attacks. Essentially, you are asking everyone else to put up with the inconvenience of someone else's baby or babies in general. Don't sour the deal by accusing the side from which you'd want empahty and courtesy!
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    17 members found this post helpful.

  4. #204
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    I thought of this thread when reading this article today (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/keli-g...b_2738848.html). It doesn't precisely fit the situation, but I did think the last paragraph had a good point
    Because just being [a parent], doesn't make you a great one. It doesn't make you perfect and it doesn't make you supreme commander of all things good and right in the world. It just means you've had the courage to take on the hardest job in the world, and for that I applaud you. But it doesn't mean that if I'd like to sleep on a cross-country flight I should be made to feel guilty for admitting that I don't want to sit next to your kid and am willing to pay a premium not to do so -- as beautiful, bright, and brilliant as they may be.
    or that the OP should be made to feel like dirt because she doesn't want the cries of a child that isn't hers to invade the sanctity of HER home and disturb HER sleep.

    If I owned this apartment, I'd seriously consider soundproofing everything. I'd also increase the insulation, replace the crappy windows and figure out how to add a skylight in my kitchen. Oh, and ceiling fans with dimmer bulbs and remote controls. But I don't.

    Fortunately the OP has that option. And just think, OP, of all the glorious banging and sawing and other noise they'll make during naptime while they're doing the reno in your place
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.


    12 members found this post helpful.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyinBey++ View Post
    I thought of this thread when reading this article today (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/keli-g...b_2738848.html). It doesn't precisely fit the situation, but I did think the last paragraph had a good point

    or that the OP should be made to feel like dirt because she doesn't want the cries of a child that isn't hers to invade the sanctity of HER home and disturb HER sleep.

    If I owned this apartment, I'd seriously consider soundproofing everything. I'd also increase the insulation, replace the crappy windows and figure out how to add a skylight in my kitchen. Oh, and ceiling fans with dimmer bulbs and remote controls. But I don't.

    Fortunately the OP has that option. And just think, OP, of all the glorious banging and sawing and other noise they'll make during naptime while they're doing the reno in your place
    LOL

    certainly beats crawling out of bed at 4:55AM, banging on the door asking for a spare set of ear plugs...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #206
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    Or banging on the ceiling, like I do when the damn skwerls start playing soccer over my head at 2 AM. And I ain't gentle about it.
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #207
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    I'm of two minds. I have low child tolerance, even from my own. Thank heavens they are teens now fully trained by me.

    When they were little turds I provided a buffer zone between them and the world, on the world's behalf. If they fussed in public, I vaporized them (as we called making something "disappear" in our household). I never made anyone put up with my kids except that one lady in the grocery store that complained about my baby daughter crying when I was on a short string and hadn't slept and lived 50 miles from town and here the dang baby was crying when I needed to get a few groceries. I HAD been flying around the store in a hurry, holding a shutterupper (sucker) in the kid's mouth tickling her and then a manager came up to me (he knew me by name, shopped there every week) and asked me to hurry b/c THAT lady had complained. All my passive aggressiveness erupted and I threw away the sucker, let go of the kid, and proceeded to follow that lady down every aisle of the store with my 10 month old screaming her head off. It was lovely. I smiled to deflect every one of her meant-to-kill stares.

    That said-I think when you live in an apartment you've agreed to live close to lotsa other people and kids are people too. I think this society is growing to have a very short fuse for babies, wasn't it just last week someone slapped a kid on a plane? You can't just out-professional white-collar yourself away from babies, they're part of the whole deal. Especially when you took a place that is in the middle of The Whole Deal.

    I don't really think in most societies it's the responsibility of the parent to shush the kid away so it doesn't bother others until it emerges with a career. That's weird. If you're not a kid person you probably don't frequent places that have kids; for heavens sake don't forget to think about that when you pick a place to live...?


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #208
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    CBM, I love you. I'm reminded of that poor scared to death truck driver after we came out of the Bob He honest to goodness HID from your 5'3" self and I was right behind you, just gobsmacked. You WENT, girl



  9. #209
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    I have no idea whether my younger son disturbed the neighbors - we lived in our house by the time he was born and I got no grumpy notes - but the poor kid was a marathon screamer. He would yell from around 7pm until he was worn out around 9 or 10pm. There was nothing physically wrong with him (heaven knows, we saw the doctors!) but no matter what we did, he would just plain yell. Mornings weren't quite as bad - he was just plain hungry then, and hungry is easy to deal with! - but he would fuss at nap times until he fussed himself to sleep. I think hollering was his method of self soothing...

    Sorry to say, there's not much you can do about some else's infant. Some babies will not be quiet, and want the entire world to know about their baby suffering!

    I do have sympathy for you. Good thing that babies do outgrow that colicky time. Took the better part of a year for my younger son (and he's still a fussy child, but it's more OCD problems than anything...as an aside, sometimes I wonder whether he was having OCD/texture problems with his pajamas. He certainly has them now with socks, etc...) but he did eventually outgrow his awful stage. I think he would have been left on an ice floe 2,000 years ago, though - he was that bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by KayBee View Post
    This was uncalled for. I have been dealing with excess noise at nightime hours since NOVEMBER. It is now February. Shall I assist you with counting?
    I have to add...four months was when Son the Younger really got going with that horrible colicky stage. I do feel your pain...and I feel the parents' pain. And the older brother's, too.
    Don't tell me about what you can't do. That's boring. Show me what you can do. - Mom



  10. #210

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    I'm sorry, but why should it be the responsibility of non parents to put up with having their sleep disturbed by crying babies??? Everyone who has posted seems to agree that a barking dog would be the responsibility of the dog owner, but a screaming infant is somehow exempt from parental responsibility???


    21 members found this post helpful.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time Rider View Post
    I'm sorry, but why should it be the responsibility of non parents to put up with having their sleep disturbed by crying babies??? Everyone who has posted seems to agree that a barking dog would be the responsibility of the dog owner, but a screaming infant is somehow exempt from parental responsibility???
    You can put a barn collar on a dog. Or debark it. Or rehome it. Or even euthanize it.

    What would you propose the parent of an inconsolable infant do? Sometimes they just cry, and there's nothing you can really do to make them stop.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    You can put a barn collar on a dog. Or debark it. Or rehome it. Or even euthanize it.

    What would you propose the parent of an inconsolable infant do? Sometimes they just cry, and there's nothing you can really do to make them stop.
    you knock on the neighbor's door and apologize.

    they might have an idea, or volunteer to take the kid for a bit...

    instead of plotting revenge...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #213
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    I've lived in a apartment/condo/townhouse situation all of my adult life, so I know noise is part of the deal. That said, if I knew my neighbor's child's name never having met said child or family, I'd have a problem with that. I understand that babies cry and really nothing can be done to stop that- I get it. The part that makes me believe the neighbors could be a bit more respectful is the part about screaming the older son's name so much that the OP knows the name. That's taking it too far.

    Now personally, if I were awakened repeatedly at let's say 4:30 am (since I'm already up at 5 anyway), I would not respond well. In fact, when the baby started crying, I'd probably cry just as loudly just to prove my point. Not advocating that approach, by the way....
    "Life is too short to be a slave to the whims of others." -- RugBug, COTH


    4 members found this post helpful.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    CBM, I love you. I'm reminded of that poor scared to death truck driver after we came out of the Bob He honest to goodness HID from your 5'3" self and I was right behind you, just gobsmacked. You WENT, girl
    5 foot even, thank you very much. Stupid truck driver.

    There is still a difference between human babies and DOGS in the world, folks! Sometimes it's impossible to hush a child no matter what you do. The overall noise level in the apartment could be taken down but that baby is still going to cry.

    Sound carries; apartments are not little insular bubbles where you can imagine that society doesn't exist outside your door. If you know you can't handle baby crying you should not live a mere 12 inches away from random society members that might have a baby. You took that chance when you took the apartment. Babies are not easily controlled. Consider the neighbors when you take a place.

    When you sign the lease on an apartment like that you TAKE ON THE RESPONSIBILITY to live next to people and at this point in time, babies are still considered people. That's why, Prime Time. That is why it is your responsibility to either remove yourself if you can't handle it or learn to cope as that poor parent probably is. Because loud parties and barking dogs are controllable but human infants are not. And if you sign up to live right next door to people you're going to hear them.

    And I'm totally sure the frazzled parent would want to hand off the baby to the very stranger that has arrived on the door step to complain about all that noise! stranger danger!


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by KayBee View Post
    If they got up to actually soothe the child, that would be one thing. But... they don't. Their solution is to let him/her cry himself out.
    how do you know they dont------- you dont live there
    mate babies cry for all sorts of reasons and given the babies age more likely suffering from teething which is painful and some babies you just cant consol them when they have that or if they are ill so they cry themselves out if you dont like it move, and think on this one one day you could be in the same boat as them with people complaining about you


    try to be a bit more compasssionate rather than ready to moan try to be more sympahtic to there cause


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  16. #216
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    I haven't read all of the responses, but after getting the general feel for the tone I wanted to add my 2 cents. I have a unique perspective, because I have a "child", but I'm not a parent. I'm his nanny. I know what being a parent entails without the high emotions that run through it.

    First of all, I seriously doubt this child is colicky if he is crying for 15-30 minutes at 5 and 7. Sounds more like he is waking and having a hard time getting back to sleep. That is a tough thing to deal with as a parent. Sleep training is always hard, and there is always someone who is going to judge your methods and tell you that you're doing it wrong.

    I'm extremely thankful that I haven't had to deal with this situation in an apartment, but I've thought about it. If I had my own child and was trying to get through the cry-it-out phase in an apartment, here's what I would do. I would approach my neighbors and ask them when they are typically at work and what time they normally get up on weekdays. Because I DO think it's inconsiderate for them to let their child cry it out and ruin the neighbor's sleep, if there is something they can do to fix it. It's very possible to sleep train nap times first so that the crying is done during the day while neighbors are at work. Then when it's time to sleep train the nights the child knows how to fall asleep on his own and there is much less nighttime crying involved. That doesn't work if the parents of the child work; I don't know what the situation is in this case.

    There are also ways to sleep train without long stretches of crying. Often they take longer. Which sucks for the parents, but the PARENTS are the ones who decided to have a child. Not the neighbors. If it takes longer, but it's more considerate to others, that's the way it should be done. There are other things you can do to minimize the crying but I'm not going to get into it. I just wanted to say that as an outsider with some experience with kids, I wouldn't just expect everyone around me to deal with the crying of my baby while trying to sleep train. At least not without having a conversation with them about it and how to make it more tolerable for everyone.

    Now obviously in some cases there isn't ANYTHING you can do. Sometimes a baby is teething, or sick, or just going through a phase. There are babies who cry and scream for hours for no reason. That is awful for everyone, the parents especially. In that case, I would still talk to the neighbors, but explain the situation and just apologize for any disruptions. Because that's the polite thing to do.


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  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by goeslikestink View Post
    how do you know they dont------- you dont live there
    mate babies cry for all sorts of reasons and given the babies age more likely suffering from teething which is painful and some babies you just cant consol them when they have that or if they are ill so they cry themselves out if you dont like it move, and think on this one one day you could be in the same boat as them with people complaining about you


    try to be a bit more compasssionate rather than ready to moan try to be more sympahtic to there cause
    LOL, well, she does live there...
    apparently the acoustics are of the kind that not much in the apartment above her is a mystery.

    Yes, babies cry, older siblings get upset with them....but it really would go a long way if there was a noticeable effort on the part of the parents to recognize that there is a problem for the surroundings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    LOL, well, she does live there...
    apparently the acoustics are of the kind that not much in the apartment above her is a mystery.

    Yes, babies cry, older siblings get upset with them....but it really would go a long way if there was a noticeable effort on the part of the parents to recognize that there is a problem for the surroundings.
    Maybe they don't know. We had a very heavy footed neighbor living above us when we first got married. He was clueless what it sounded like.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  19. #219
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    The neighbour probably has no idea how much you can hear. What I would do, is have a casual conversation with the neighbour including details that she would be shocked to find out you know. Talk to her about her life as if you were in the room or watching it on tv. "Good thing big brother has settled in to having a little brother... He sure was getting upset about it! It was so cute when he said he was going to run away to live under the sea with Sponge Bob! I laughed about that for days." If you can quote things she/someone in their house actually said, I bet she will be mortified that someone can hear what's going on so well. I wouldn't be surprised if they moved out afterwards.
    Jigga:
    Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**



  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Maybe they don't know. We had a very heavy footed neighbor living above us when we first got married. He was clueless what it sounded like.
    It's very possible the parents have apologized to their neighbors on their floor but just haven't thought the sound carried down below so well.



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