The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 70
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Apr. 9, 2012
    Location
    NYC=center of the universe
    Posts
    2,037

    Default

    School is supposed to prepare kids for "real life" responsibilities. In "real life", we don't get brownie points for effort. So why should school reward kids for not performing? To succeed in life, we all need to learn that positive behavior is rewarded and negative behavior is penalized. Learning from both failures as well as successes is a key part of the development process.

    In general we suffer from grade inflation in the States. When I studied in France, we were graded on a 20 point scale, and a 14/20 was essentially an A. This was considered an excellent job, but they still recognized that there was always room to do better.
    Born under a rock and owned by beasts!



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2010
    Posts
    6,631

    Default

    Wow. Hit a nerve. I tell ya, in the schools, teachers are SCARED to talk about this. Most parents probably really want honest grades and to teach actual life lessons, like if you do 50% of the work, you get 50% of the credit. And, yes, I think we need to track again, big time. We do in math, but not in other areas. So, when a kid is four grade levels below in education, there's nothing they can get but F's until they catch up, but that's not the way it works.

    Sigh. Girl in my class. We've spent two weeks reviewing Jackson and his Indian Removal act. They reviewed information as a group, went over it again in the book with pictures, I read them some information, and showed a video The assignment has eyewitness accounts. They've had three days (about 120 minutes total) in class to take this and write a letter to the editor with three body paragraphs, plus and intro. and concl., with emotion and facts pretending to be an American at the time and being upset with treatment of Native Americans. She turns in giant typed print with "paragraphs" 1 to 2 sentences long. I call her over and she, again, tries to argue that that is the assignment, and she can't even read her own writing out loud because it doesn't make sense. This class I only have for history--another teacher has them for language arts. He gives 50% for no work. EVERY SINGLE ONE of his kids is passing, even the ones who can't read.

    It's this story over and over.The good teachers are harassed and harangued by the few psycho parents who will attack. The 6th grade teachers are attacked because "my child always got A's" even though they don't GET grades in elementary.

    I think this is such a dangerous thing to do. Our district has a "grading taskforce" looking into all of this and what to do, but I bet they don't have the guts to actually put it in writing so THEY take the blame for it. Even the teachers who do this don't put it in writing. If you're going to give 50% for missing work, AT LEAST have it written down so parents are aware, as are students. This teacher I spoke of sort of proudly smirked that she doesn't let the kids or parents know that she does this, and it was suggested by our asshole ex-principal that she doe this, who is now personnel director of the district. He tried to fire me as an AP because I wouldn't "find a way" to give a passing grade to 8th graders who had done NO work all year, and can't they make it up the last two weeks of the school year. Even the kids were OK with being treated fairly.

    But, teachers or schools never get threatened if the grades are too high. It's a constant problem if they're not.

    I'm just so . . . disheartened. I'm trying to figure out what to do to make it public and kind of MAKE everyone be honest about it. It just doesn't make any sense to give 50% for missing work. So, if you have a 10 point math test and you only get 1 question right, you get a 60%?

    I do everything by points and percentages so kids so the value and weight of things, and like everyone else adjust and give opportunities to make it up if they want to. I just can't get to allowing them to do nothing and giving them some credit for it.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2010
    Posts
    6,631

    Default

    oops



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb. 24, 2005
    Posts
    2,322

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    You come down hard on teachers and want them to "teach more." The day we start paying them for this kind of "above and beyond" effort, we can expect it. But it should come as not surprise that current grading suits adults rather than kids. I don't think K-12 teachers are winning so much as are the administrators who want/need great measurements of success from their schools.

    I have only graded at the college level. I can explain how and why I grade but that would take fo-evah.
    I responded earlier but my post was dropped by my computer. In short, I should not have sounded as though I were coming down hard on teachers and am disappointed that you read it that way. The educational philosophy of the school, district or state is not the decision of the teachers and the decision to teach less and grade more strictly rather than teaching more and grading less strictly is not made by the teachers.

    I do not think the educational philosophy I support would require a teacher to go "above and beyond" his/her job desciption. The quality of work of a professional is not determined by the amount of pay. Teachers as a group do need to decide whether they want to be respected as professionals or not.



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2010
    Posts
    6,631

    Default

    Well, Coyoteco, I agree with you on this one in part. (And I've had problems all week with posts getting dropped.)

    I see VERY little evidence anywhere that anyone is being asked to grade more strictly. I see nothing but the opposite. ALL of the talk is about how to "find a way" make more kids pass, despite lower skills.

    We looked at data for the grading committee meeting, and the main focus seemed to be why do some teachers (me!) have so many F's, and are not like the majority where 95% of the kids are passing. The question was NOT why do so many kids have passing grades despite the 50% failure rate at the high school and the complete disconnect from the unbiased testing showing 50% of the kids are not at grade level. Again, I have a very high correlation in my grades and what the unbiased testing data shows as a skill level, where it's way off in a lot of teachers.

    I sure do see teaching less and less. And I am SO disheartened by so many teachers joining the queue of giving up and in and just doing less. NO one will get talked to if they give no homework, no tests, no essays (in an English class.) Teachers are unendingly threatened because a kid is "overwhelmed" with homework and spending "hours" reading 5 pages, or doing 10 math problems. NO one is saying, wow, it takes you TWO hours to do ten math problems? Your skills are really low so you need to practice MORE until you catch up. It's always "modify" so they stop at 20 minutes no matter what.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec. 7, 2008
    Posts
    257

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ako View Post
    School is supposed to prepare kids for "real life" responsibilities. In "real life", we don't get brownie points for effort. So why should school reward kids for not performing? To succeed in life, we all need to learn that positive behavior is rewarded and negative behavior is penalized. Learning from both failures as well as successes is a key part of the development process.

    In general we suffer from grade inflation in the States. When I studied in France, we were graded on a 20 point scale, and a 14/20 was essentially an A. This was considered an excellent job, but they still recognized that there was always room to do better.
    Personally, I think the US/European education systems (particularly in terms of grading) are apples and oranges, and therefore it's a little unfair to compare them, although I do think there is a lot to be said for the European model.

    In my US high school a 69% was a failing grade. My European friends were pretty pumped when (in Europe) they got a 60/70% on an exam. In fact they often described their classes in terms of "passing/not passing" while we Americans (particularly those of us who planned to attend college) never left our American classes saying "whoot, I just passed that exam with a 5% margin."

    Most of my US friends and I passed our American classes with 15-20+ percentage points to spare. None of us would have been accepted to college if we averaged a 14/20, or 70% on our work. In fact, we would have barely passed high school. My point is, when basically all American schools use a particular format to evaluate students, it becomes the norm for all American schools; therefore we do not have an "inflated system" when essentially everyone plays by the same rules. Our grading system only appears inflated in contrast with European countries, but as I just noted, our models are so different that all comparisons are invidious.

    Oh, and a 4.0 (perfect A student) can always do better in the US system--he/she can get up to a 5.0 (someone at my high school did just that!)



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
    Posts
    15,787

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coyoteco View Post
    I responded earlier but my post was dropped by my computer. In short, I should not have sounded as though I were coming down hard on teachers and am disappointed that you read it that way. The educational philosophy of the school, district or state is not the decision of the teachers and the decision to teach less and grade more strictly rather than teaching more and grading less strictly is not made by the teachers.

    I do not think the educational philosophy I support would require a teacher to go "above and beyond" his/her job desciption. The quality of work of a professional is not determined by the amount of pay. Teachers as a group do need to decide whether they want to be respected as professionals or not.
    I was with you until the last paragraph.

    There is a very, very long history of people (many of them women) severing professionalism and pay. The hope or assumption was that if they proved themselves to be professional enough for long enough, they'd get professional-level pay. IMO, it's irresponsible to the profession to keep working just as hard for less. That makes it possible to pay those same hardworking professionals successively less, not more.

    Higher education is rotting because of this... and on the part of PhDs who had a variety of ways to sever pay and professionalism in their mind (at least for themselves), until they discovered many working without job security, benefits or pay much above minimum wage.

    In short then, it's one kind of professional who does not insist in the value of his or her work. Perhaps that's the young one. Perhaps its the old and well-paid, or even the hobbyist. But anyone hoping to keep the profession alive for long can't consent that for long.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2000
    Posts
    3,230

    Default

    When I first started teaching middle school, I could grade my students fairly without really any negative response from parents...they knew, I knew, the kids knew - do what you do and get what you get. HOWEVER, as time went on, kids became more and more slack and parents became very defensive over Johnny & Susie being given a 0 when they neglected to submit work. They complained and whined and went to the school board...

    The administration of the public school system for which I worked issued a directive to ALL teachers in our district. NO CHILD RECEIVES ANYTHING LESS THAN A 60...whether they have tried their best and failed or not even bothered to submit anything. We were also not allowed to give homework a weight of more than 10% of the total grade so most kids simply didn't do the assignments. A student had to make a conscious effort to fail.

    When I pulled DD from public school, she was A honor roll and couldn't do basic math or actually read on grade level (despite the assessments her teachers had done). Grades don't always reflect a student's actual ability. Yet 99% of the parents I know pride themselves on having children on A/B honor roll...not knowing that these same children are generally operating at a below average level. Our kids might ought to be failing, but the public education system has failed our kids AND our teachers.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2000
    Posts
    3,230

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
    She turns in giant typed print with "paragraphs" 1 to 2 sentences long. I call her over and she, again, tries to argue that that is the assignment, and she can't even read her own writing out loud because it doesn't make sense.
    I am feeling your pain as this reminds me of the papers submitted in size 20 font with the biblio containing only google.com and yahoo.com Tests with numerous "IDK" written as the answer. And parents who complained the history instructor had no standing to grade regarding grammar/ELA...therefore administrators changed the policy and history instructors were no longer allowed to grade papers on anything but content. So we nailed them for plagiarism...that was so well received we took it on the chin again and DID give up.

    The system is broken. The baby is going to have to go out with the bathwater as far as I'm concerned in my little neck of the woods. Cut the fat at the top and start over.

    I miss teaching....but only to a certain degree. Makes me so sad for the kids. OK - 2 posts on this thread is more than enough from me...this is a sore topic that riles me up.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    May. 8, 2004
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    6,843

    Default

    Oddly enough, I have been recently thinking about teaching as a second career. I've been quite lucky over the past six years and spent a lot of time in the schools my children have gone to (private schools) and really enjoy being with the students.

    Reality check, I'd be fired, pronto. There's no way I would put up with the kind of crap it sounds like parents hand out, and if the teachers are the ones who have to suck it up...? I have a lot to offer children who want to learn. But I'm not going to spend my precious time in a classroom being brow beaten by parents who think handing out free grades like candy at a carnival is going to get their kid anywhere in life.

    To the poster who mentioned that without straight A's, a kid isn't going to get to one of the top schools-I hear you. As parent, I'd prefer that my child have a real learning experience in high school and get into a lower first tier or second tier university. Work ethic and a desire to learn and grow are going to take them farther in life than Harvard or Princeton.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Mar. 24, 2004
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    1,280

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard Ridge View Post
    To the poster who mentioned that without straight A's, a kid isn't going to get to one of the top schools-I hear you. As parent, I'd prefer that my child have a real learning experience in high school and get into a lower first tier or second tier university. Work ethic and a desire to learn and grow are going to take them farther in life than Harvard or Princeton.
    The students who receive undeserved A's struggle a lot once they get to that big university. They are grossly unprepared for the workload and level of instruction. Many of them spend 3 to 4 years or more at the university and then drop out because they can't pass. Others barely get by and have to take the same classes repeatedly until they pass. This is a huge waste of money and is a drain on the system. Plus, it's frustration on a daily basis trying to teach students who are not prepared and who expect you to do all the work for them. At least I'm allowed to give students the grade they earned.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Dec. 7, 2008
    Posts
    257

    Default

    If anyone wants to see a really excellent education documentary, check out Race to Nowhere http://www.racetonowhere.com/ Unlike the other big education documentary, Waiting for Superman, Race to Nowhere looks at how the American education system is failing the middle class/wealthy students, not just poor kids.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Feb. 24, 2005
    Posts
    2,322

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    I was with you until the last paragraph.

    There is a very, very long history of people (many of them women) severing professionalism and pay. The hope or assumption was that if they proved themselves to be professional enough for long enough, they'd get professional-level pay. IMO, it's irresponsible to the profession to keep working just as hard for less. That makes it possible to pay those same hardworking professionals successively less, not more.

    Higher education is rotting because of this... and on the part of PhDs who had a variety of ways to sever pay and professionalism in their mind (at least for themselves), until they discovered many working without job security, benefits or pay much above minimum wage.

    In short then, it's one kind of professional who does not insist in the value of his or her work. Perhaps that's the young one. Perhaps its the old and well-paid, or even the hobbyist. But anyone hoping to keep the profession alive for long can't consent that for long.
    Your point is valid. "Women" jobs/professions have be subjected to financial discrimination. That is absolutely true.

    But still, it is the job to teach and if that job is made harder by teaching more, then it is still the job and it is still the duty of the professional teacher to teach in the manner that is best for the students within reason - and teaching more and grading more leniently is within that standard of reasonableness. The poster in this thread that speaks of her education in France - if you look at her numbers - 70 percent was an A - indicates that France education follows the philosophy that I mention. It's just that American education missed this one.

    So, there is some middle ground between allowing pay discrimination based on a profession's origins as a "female" profession and adopting an unprofessional attitude that one will be more concerned about doing more work for the dollar than about the quality of work performed. There is a balance, and it must be ascertained - many teachers do find that balance, btw.



  14. #54
    Join Date
    Feb. 24, 2005
    Posts
    2,322

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by c'est moi View Post
    Personally, I think the US/European education systems (particularly in terms of grading) are apples and oranges, and therefore it's a little unfair to compare them, although I do think there is a lot to be said for the European model.

    In my US high school a 69% was a failing grade. My European friends were pretty pumped when (in Europe) they got a 60/70% on an exam. In fact they often described their classes in terms of "passing/not passing" while we Americans (particularly those of us who planned to attend college) never left our American classes saying "whoot, I just passed that exam with a 5% margin."

    Most of my US friends and I passed our American classes with 15-20+ percentage points to spare. None of us would have been accepted to college if we averaged a 14/20, or 70% on our work. In fact, we would have barely passed high school. My point is, when basically all American schools use a particular format to evaluate students, it becomes the norm for all American schools; therefore we do not have an "inflated system" when essentially everyone plays by the same rules. Our grading system only appears inflated in contrast with European countries, but as I just noted, our models are so different that all comparisons are invidious.

    Oh, and a 4.0 (perfect A student) can always do better in the US system--he/she can get up to a 5.0 (someone at my high school did just that!)
    This. This 70 percent is an A. That is because the kids are theoretically being taught at a sufficiently high level that the students are not expected to know 95 percent of the material to qualify for an "A".

    As for the 5.0 - that relates to advanced classe which are given a "weighted" grade. Some colleges accept the weighted grades as grades and some discount the weighted portion. The question is whether an A in a standard math class is worth the same GPA as an A in an IB higher level or AP C or D level class. Arguments can be made supporting either position.

    I'll just say relating to failing in an Ivy League school - they really don't fail students. If you get in, you can graduate absent some really extreme circumstance. I am not a fan of an Ivy League education.



  15. #55
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
    Posts
    15,787

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coyoteco View Post
    I'll just say relating to failing in an Ivy League school - they really don't fail students. If you get in, you can graduate absent some really extreme circumstance. I am not a fan of an Ivy League education.
    Yabbut by the time you got to the Ivy, you were in the top 6-15% of all students who applied for admission. Slack may be cut for the bottom-most of those undergrads. But I assure you, they didn't get much slack cut if they got to those top ranks. Most of the Ivy kids I taught had fine work ethics and "knew how to go to school" as well as what it was for.

    Now does the average Harvard freshman know more, less or different than he did, 30 years ago? Is the top 6% less-well-educated now than it was then? That would be hard to measure, but I'd guess not.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2013
    Location
    Chicagoland, IL
    Posts
    1

    Default

    Went to a truly dismal public school for K-8, and a college prep private school for 9-12. I was always intrinsically motivated--no one had to tell me to do work or try my hardest, I was always stressing out over assignments and petrified of doing poorly anyway. Therefore, I don't really know what the process was for turning in stuff late...for the longest time the possibility of not doing work never crossed my mind. I was high strung, to say the least. BUT, in my public school, I could imagine it flying. I know kids didn't turn in work, and I know they still passed. Granted, "passing" doesn't mean much if you want to get into a specific school; rolling out with all D's is getting harder and harder. Those kids, I'm sure, are often issues with employers though. But the idea that people can not do work that others work their bums off on (this is of course barring interfering factors such as learning disabilities and poor home life) always puzzled me.

    Now, in high school, we were expected to turn in work to our highest standard ON TIME. We were all very close with our teachers, and thus, at least in my case, I felt obligated on multiple levels to turn in work that was up to snuff. On that same end, they all wanted us to do well, so in extenuating circumstances we could ask for extensions and if we were sick that was another thing entirely. But, the general model expected us to do things on time, and turning them in was no guarantee of an excellent grade. I doubt my teachers gave many failing marks on subjective material, e.g. essays, but I know people struggled with grades. We were, however, driven toward being a college preparatory environment, vs. just getting kids their diplomas, so compared to my janky middle school that just hoped to get the lowest common denominator out into the world, it was a different set of expectations from everyone.

    As for university, I go to a high-ranked private. Pretty much everyone came in as the top of their HS class, and everyone struggles with getting A's here because the workload is intense, and turning it in on time is generally vital. However, I do notice some differences based on past learning environments, which is interesting. But I agree with mvp -- we are overall those kids who know "how to go to school". In general, even when we're slacking, we know exactly what needs to be done. I can't imagine coming from a "50% for turning it in" environment and being able to handle something like this. As it is, I can barely keep up if I want to maintain a good GPA! I'm sure there's a larger range at public schools, where you get the whole range of student types. All of that said, I've struggled with getting work in on time this quarter, for the first time ever. It's terrifying. But professors, more than my HS teachers, are fairly understanding, even in this environment. It helps that I'm in a more creative/subjective area of study. Engineering would be totally different.



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2010
    Posts
    6,631

    Default

    FInzean--I'm talking to teachers every day about this, and this is the story I hear all day. Constant complaints that ALWAYS go back to wanting higher grades and no work. But, if you threaten the district and they think there's a possibility of a lawsuit, you get your way.

    NO ONE worries about inflated grades. I had a parent who deliberately put her daughter in my class and the math teacher's class last year because we both have the highest consistent jumps in unbiased testing every year--and the highest number of F's and the most complaints. She was in the "easy" teachers' classes in 6th grade and lost so much ground on the testing mom was scared. She made a lot of progress and jumped again. This year she got a 50% teacher and mom wanted her put back in my class (I went up a grade) and went to everyone to do that. They wouldn't move her. Sane parents don't threaten to sue for that.

    Unfortunately I think the only way we may make progress is to sue parents and schools for bullying and harassment and cheating. That's the only thing anyone seems to cater to.

    I can't recommend anyone get into teaching. I can't tell you how many teachers have left, are retiring early, or counting the days. About five years ago one got so sick of the kids not doing ANY homework, she just deleted it all from her gradebook, all of the kids got passing grades, and she got no complaints. She quit.

    Sigh. I really love teaching. I hate this. I felt sick in the heart all day. I do love what I call "my whiny A students" who always want to do more and learn. They ask for more, discuss, push themselves and me, and make me smile. They come in early on the break and hang out with all of their friends who aren't even in my class but come in and study and talk about learning, I have to push them out at lunch so I can eat, and they are like the UN with sweet, worried Fatema and her headscarf and big glasses, Sonya the more modern Muslim girl, Priscilla with the Brazillion background, Vince the Chinese boy I adore, Bryce who JUST moved here from Hong Kong and aces everything, Ailin just from Hong Kong who has a hard time and is working on speaking and getting it all and does well, and just explained her book to me, Gabriel with Philipino heritage who is such a great writer . . . I try to push them, but it's a whole different world having a discussion on how a tariff might effect various economies in the Jackson administration, and have to point out to ten kids that we've been writing this essay a week and a half, and now are reviewing organization by charting it, and you actually need the name of the BOOK you're writing about in it (and I already personally talked to them five times.)


    3 members found this post helpful.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Dec. 20, 2010
    Posts
    624

    Default

    University instructor here. I love teaching and I'm thankful that my administration is really supportive of its teachers. I grade the paper in front of me and I only allow assignments to be turned in one day late with a full letter grade reduction. All major writing assignments must be turned in or it's an automatic course failure, no exceptions.

    I honestly couldn't handle teaching K-12, primarily because of many of the things posted on this thread. I wouldn't last long. I'm a firm believer in instilling personal responsibility in students however, that seems to be an outdated notion for many administrations.



  19. #59
    Join Date
    Feb. 24, 2004
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    138

    Default

    I love being a teacher, but I don't think I would love working in a public school.

    Are the people advocating "tracking" in support of it at all grade levels? I have very flexible grouping in my class, but based on skills needed by the students, not their intelligence. The groups may be completely different based on the activity or subject. I have some students who are working at grade 1 level math in some areas, and grade 3 level math in others. Similarly, in literacy, there are so many factors that need to be targeted, so putting students into static tracking groups would not be effective, from my experience.

    Also, regarding grading on a curve- again, I assume people are talking about high school, but if we EXPECT a certain ratio of our kids to FAIL, then have we been doing our job?

    If my students don't hand something in (let's say a summative assessment project on explorers), I can't just give them zero. The assessment is to assess their knowledge, time management, ability to follow instructions, synthesize information, research, present their knowledge using non fiction text structures, etc. Of course, they will get slammed for the time management bit, but if they can still demonstrate their knowledge of explorers, research skills, ability to synthesize information, or whatever else I was assessing, then those things would be okay. I would also ask myself (as a grade 2 teacher, mind you- this doesn't apply if it's a higher grade and the students did a lot of it at home): did I scaffold their learning and work effectively? Did I monitor their progress as well as I should have?

    I work in a fantastic school with administrators who really support the teachers and students. I think that there are some aspects of public schools that have a negative effect on student learning (class sizes, resources, PD availability, school counsellors, nurses and availability of IEP support).
    ~please recycle~



  20. #60
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2001
    Posts
    10,171

    Default

    Grading on a curve is a good way to ascertain how teachers are reaching students and if they (teachers) are actually teaching what they think they have taught.

    Students who don't turn in summative assignments should receive a zero because they produced nothing. The consequences of that are what matter (and are not particularly damaging to a student in 2nd grade).

    In the end, grades don't matter as much as work ethic and character.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.


    1 members found this post helpful.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 57
    Last Post: Oct. 21, 2012, 11:38 AM
  2. getting students to think and participate
    By nlk in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: Jan. 20, 2010, 10:12 AM
  3. Working Students What Do You Pay?
    By SLR in forum Eventing
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: Jan. 15, 2010, 01:36 AM
  4. Working Students
    By eventingismylife in forum Eventing
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: Dec. 26, 2009, 06:04 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness