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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Perhaps nobody is brave enough to try to correct things for fear that a few less than tactful posters will rain holy terror down on them if there's one little misstep.
    Can you very politely explain how to pick up a turd by the clean end?



  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Perhaps nobody is brave enough to try to correct things for fear that a few less than tactful posters will rain holy terror down on them if there's one little misstep.
    Since Tom didn't correct the OP he must not know anything himself , according to his own (il)logic. The OP got helpful advice. Besides, who is going to correct everything a woman writes on a BB when she may lose her horse??

    I'm not afraid of Tom and Ricks's sh!t, personally, because so much of it is sh!t. Shrug. I have them on ignore because I read their posts for a while and more than 90 per cent of the time got negative value for reading. Waste of time.
    Last edited by grayarabpony; Mar. 20, 2013 at 09:42 PM.


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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Definitely. Assuming the listener isn't hard of hearing, mildly demented, miserably sick and hasn't slept in three days!

    It is very definitely NOT on the medical school curriculum. One has to figure it out the hard way.
    Yeah, well, that wouldn't include most farrier clients I would hope. And such a patient would hopefully have an advocate.



  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Since Tom didn't correct the OP he must not know anything himself ,
    What I know is that a layperson is not going to be able to accurately recite the details of a founder diagnosis and treatment protocol from memory. As soon as I start pointing out the errors you will jump in with your vast expertise in skillful lying, fact distortion, and avoiding any direct respond to a challenge of your "facts."

    according to his own (il)logic. The OP got helpful advice.
    See there you go again making up yet another lie. I made no comment regarding the advice.

    Besides, who is going to correct everything a woman writes on a BB when she may lose her horse??
    Besides you, who is going to read something on a BB and then instruct their farrier based on what they read?

    I'm not afraid of Tom and Ricks's sh!t, personally, because so much of it is sh!t.
    Strong words from one who tells lies so frequently and believes her own lies.

    Shrug. I have them on ignore because I read their posts for a while and more than 90 per cent of the time got negative value for reading. Waste of time.
    Seems to me that you take every opportunity to ignore the truth, make up stuff that we never said (which ought to be obvious since if you have us on "ignore" then anything you say in response to our posts is just a lie that you made up. So then you argue with your own made up lies.


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  5. #85
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    I have yet to figure out how someone who has me on ignore, is able to read and then respond to that which I have written. Regardless, Tom and I take ownership of what we write by using our real names. The same cannot be said for many/most who post here and elsewhere. And I've heard all the (ahem) lame excuses why so many hide behind a screen name and even with that, cannot substantiate the claims and charges they make. Therefore, anyone with critical analytical and thinking skills, affords them a credibility score < 0. Those folks, and you know who you are, are fools. And I suffer fools and their foolishness little to not at all. The harm that they do with their TSS advice and opinions far outweighs any probative value that might be containd in their words.

    You want to have some credibility? Take ownership of your words and when asked or necessary, be able to provide cites for that which you are saying.

    Absent that, the sound of distant mouse flatulance has more value that anything you say or write. ymmv.


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  6. #86
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    Regardless of whether I got some things mixed up or not (I am on brain overload dealing with not only this particular very sick mare, but also a second mare who is in the middle of an extremely high-risk pregnancy, not to mention my own personal health issues and the several deaths in my family in the last few months - so, you who name yourselves, rather than criticizing my "poor note-taking", gimme a break already! ) - and would rather this thread not turn into a pissing contest, like so many other threads are on this board.

    The facts are: The mare is feeling better. Much better. The rubber 1/2 inch heel wedge is working, and the ligament pull on the coffin is lessened considerably, verified by x-ray! Her blood tests are status quo, same as they were in the past, so nothing has changed, particularly her kidney function which remains good.

    Farrier was out again on Monday and confirmed that she is still showing no signs of growth - the line of nail polish around the coronet band has not moved. It's been 70 days of no growth now.

    She's been off banamine for 2 weeks and we are in the middle of a very, very slow wean of the Regumate. Her pregnancy is now at 245 days. She continues with Previcox 57 mg for another 8 days, and then we have 16 days of weaning with the last 8 quarters of pills. Yikes, one can't help but worry if she'll relapse, yadda yadda. Not sure who is more dependent on the medicine, me or her?

    It was warm a few days ago, so I took her out for some walking in hand, only 5 minutes the first day. It offered her a change of scenery and mental refreshment. She was tender at first, but felt better as the walk progressed. The next day, the ground continued to be soft and mushy, and she was feeling really good, and so we walked for 10 minutes. She wanted to do more, but I am rather conservative. Unfortunately, the weather turned miserable, and the soft ground is now solid sheets of ice so no outings yesterday or today or even tomorrow. Hopefully Sunday will be a good day.

    The best news is she has some attitude again. Been a bit territorial around the borders of her outdoor stall, challenging any mare who gets too close to her stall space. You have no idea how happy that makes me. She did manage to break the chain on her gate and got out into the adjoining paddock where all the late-term pregnant mares are living. She was only out for about an hour, timed it perfectly with our lunch break, during which she did eat some of the sweet hay always available in there for the mares, but it seemed to have little effect on her.
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  7. #87
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    That's great news, and I hope your mare continues to feel better!



  8. #88
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    Loving the good update!
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  9. #89
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    Here is Patty Stiller's explanation for why a horse may need raised heels. Keep in mind that most of this is in reference to horses that have such severe laminitis and founder that they may need their heels raised permanently, but it's still a good explanation. Usually heels are only raised temporarily in founder treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patty Stiller View Post
    In many long term laminitic cases, the deep flexor MUSCLE contracts (involuntarily) pulling on the deep flexor tendon and coffin bone, rotating it more. And the tension in that muscle and tendon can become permanent. Therefore, attempting to lower or take the heels down to a more 'normal' height without the option of adding wedges to a shoeing package may in fact kill the horse.
    Why? Because forcing the heels down enough to add tension to the contracted muscle will pull on the unstable bone even MORE and cause more rotation, possibly putting the bone through the sole. Therefore, if the horse is to be left barefoot , consideration for the muscle and tendon MUST be factored in.
    ALso the toe may be short if the the coffin bone is short. Some coffin bones can deteriorate to such a degree that they are a third or half gone.
    As well, foundered horses grow more heel than toe in most cases and that is likely why the 'shod' pictures show so much heel,as we do not know the time that shoeing was left on.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by Patty Stiller View Post
    The tendon does not contract, the muscle controlling it does . It is an involuntary response to ongoing pain.
    Once in contraction long enough it does not release.
    I know vets who have even had horses in this contracted state fully anesthetized and the contraction did not let go. Muscle relaxant drugs did not work either.
    A more general explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Patty Stiller View Post
    I disagree horses with rotation often are rotating in part due to the pull of the deep flexor tendon. Elevating them in the early stages is critical to help STOP the rotation . It is not something done long term, but can make or break the recovery if done in the early stages . On the other hand horses who are sinking but not rotating do NOT need elevation, nor are they comfortable with it, The horses stance is a huge giveaway as to if they need elevation. basically if they stand camped forward, wedge them, if they stand straight or behind themselves, do not wedge them.

    Every laminitis/founder is individual and should be treated as such.

    I haven't had a horse with severe rotation, but, I can relate some to what you are going through. My pony foundered 18 months ago, a couple of degrees in one foot and about five in the other, no sinking, and that was terrifying enough. Especially since she was getting repeating bouts of laminitis until we just got her moving again. It's great to hear that your mare feels well enough to walk around, that may help her.

    There was an article in Warmbloods Today last year about a Grand Prix dressage mare and her (rapid) recovery from founder. The Jan/Feb 2012 issue. It's a very interesting and inspiring read for anyone with a horse that has foundered.
    Last edited by grayarabpony; Mar. 23, 2013 at 07:16 PM.


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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patty Stiller
    The horses stance is a huge giveaway as to if they need elevation. basically if they stand camped forward, wedge them, if they stand straight or behind themselves, do not wedge them.
    I wish Patty was still corresponding on these forums because she and I have disagreed on this advice before and it would be good to continue it now.

    One thing I will offer is, regardless of stance, before applying any orthosis, tape a wedge or several wedges to the hooves and see how the horse reacts.


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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodawn View Post
    Now this post, I really appreciate. This makes more sense to me than any of my garbly attempts to make sense of the reams of information being thrown at me by vets and farriers. Literally information o-v-e-r-l-o-a-d and not nearly enough time and space to sit down and really go through it, digest it, make sense of it.
    Thank you for confirming my assertion. Fortunately you don't have to take a test on that material.


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  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    I wish Patty was still corresponding on these forums because she and I have disagreed on this advice before and it would be good to continue it now.

    One thing I will offer is, regardless of stance, before applying any orthosis, tape a wedge or several wedges to the hooves and see how the horse reacts.
    The problem with arguing founder treatment protocols is that the arguments are generic and theoretical, whereas the treatments are specific to the horse's circumstances and the practitioner's implementation.

    As I recall the first time GAP got all bent out of shape with me on this forum was when I refused to spell out the intricate details of my heart bar protocol - as though I should be educating horse owners on the specifics without requiring certain perquisites like two semesters of physics, a semester of functional anatomy, and 4 years of shoeing horses full time before engaging in such a discussion.



  13. #93
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    OP I am glad she is feeling better! Hope it stays that way. One thing I do know especially with horses is there are many good ways to handle things, many of those way people will argue with over small details. So many things can vary, ability of vet and farrier, not everyone has experts close by to see the horse in person. Some just can't afford to have the experts and have to do best with what they have. I have ridden and worked with quite a few different people and they all have their own ways and I have my own ways, sure they don't always line up but for the most part all the horses have been well taken care of and proper care attended to, was it always the way I would do something? Of course not! I think it is good to discuss the different ways, but be open to learning something new or seeing something a different way. Good luck to you OP I really hope this ends up with a happy ending for you!


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  14. #94
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    Quick update. Farrier was out on the 18th - no growth. Vet check-body score is down to about a 3.5 and there seems little we can do about this as the fetus is starting to gobble calories, but her appetite is low which the vet thinks might be due to the Previcox, which she still is dependent on. Of the 20 pounds of timothy I put out, she is eating about 3/4 of it. We no longer soak the hay and so far so good. Increased the beet pulp, wheat bran, to which we add Hoffman's minerals and 1/4 cup split pea, plus 4000 mg O-3 and 2000 IU vitamin E. She will eat only so much volume before leaving it. She hates rice bran. Tried adding whole boiled flax, but she took one taste and spit it out, and then was suspicious for a couple days worth of BP mash.

    Still on ranitidine. Not allowed to deworm her at the moment either. She's being taken out for walks in hand 3-4 times a week when the ground is soft and mushy, and is doing okay with that, really enjoys getting out. She's sore, but wants to keep walking and it seems to make her feel better as we go along. Fetus gets rodeoing in her belly periodically to which she turns her head and nickers. I would think that kind of activity would be somewhat painful, poor mamma mare. Still on vet orders to be locked in her outdoor stall except when out for limited hand walks - she will not be allowed out unless she can get off the drugs for at least 2 weeks and remain relatively pain-free.

    She is at day 256 of her pregnancy, so we still have quite a ways to go yet.
    https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses

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  15. #95
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    So sweet, nickering at her baby bump! Who says horses are not self aware. You are doing a great job nursing her, rooting for a good out come.


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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodawn View Post
    Quick update. Farrier was out on the 18th - no growth. Vet check-body score is down to about a 3.5 and there seems little we can do about this as the fetus is starting to gobble calories, but her appetite is low which the vet thinks might be due to the Previcox, which she still is dependent on. Of the 20 pounds of timothy I put out, she is eating about 3/4 of it. We no longer soak the hay and so far so good. Increased the beet pulp, wheat bran, to which we add Hoffman's minerals and 1/4 cup split pea, plus 4000 mg O-3 and 2000 IU vitamin E. She will eat only so much volume before leaving it. She hates rice bran. Tried adding whole boiled flax, but she took one taste and spit it out, and then was suspicious for a couple days worth of BP mash.

    Still on ranitidine. Not allowed to deworm her at the moment either. She's being taken out for walks in hand 3-4 times a week when the ground is soft and mushy, and is doing okay with that, really enjoys getting out. She's sore, but wants to keep walking and it seems to make her feel better as we go along. Fetus gets rodeoing in her belly periodically to which she turns her head and nickers. I would think that kind of activity would be somewhat painful, poor mamma mare. Still on vet orders to be locked in her outdoor stall except when out for limited hand walks - she will not be allowed out unless she can get off the drugs for at least 2 weeks and remain relatively pain-free.

    She is at day 256 of her pregnancy, so we still have quite a ways to go yet.
    You may want to check with your vet to see if you can add feed specifically made to be low NSC. That may help with the weight without jeapordizing her.



  17. #97
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    Our mare is currently stable, but she is probably not going to survive this, long-term, sad to say. Her appetite is dismal. Scoping has not revealed any ulcers, but we suspect hind gut damage which is a big problem. I would be doing the happy dance if I could get 20 pounds of hay into her. She will eat her beet pulp - she gets 3 pounds dry weight worth every day, any more and she rejects it. I have managed to convince her that small amounts of Moorglo rice bran is not from outer space. This is quite a change from a mare who used to love food. The other most remarkable change is she is now bony instead of generously plump. This all coming at a time when her foal is gobbling calories. I'm trying a new feed product this week that is 20% fat, 20% fiber, low starch/sugar. Hopefully she likes it and will eat enough of it.

    She has graduated to a larger dry paddock, which pleases her enormously. She has the company of a kindly mare who submits to being bossed around. She is also finally off Previcox, particularly happy about this.

    Big discussion with the vets has firmly plunked me on Planet Reality. A number of serious things could go wrong at point of foaling. Due to her weakened condition, she might not survive the foaling, (the act of foaling take serious efforts out of the healthiest of mares and she is not well to begin with). And/or she will likely rebound into very severe laminitis within hours post foaling despite prompt preventative measures (due to the upheaval in hormones), and we should prepare for the real possibility the foal will be orphaned. They doubt she can survive another bout of laminitis, me either, actually, given how very severe this insult has been. Their warning included the expectation of a rather sickly foal who will need intensive care. The least - ulcer therapy. More likely - deformities, simply because she had been on massive doses of drugs, added to which it is all we can do to get minimal nutrition into the mare at a time when nutrients are crucial. Otherwise, should we get lucky and get through foaling, we should watch for the effects of the fall season bringing on the seasonal rise of higher cortisol levels which can set most at-risk horses off and she falls into this category now. She has the added bonus of a hormone change brought on by weaning off her foal. It's a lot to think about and cope with. Plan A, B, C, D . . .

    I force-feed vet-prescribed pregnancy vitamin/minerals into her, but she still needs those essential amino acids, calories, etc., that can only be obtained from eating real food. Her lack of appetite may impact her ability to produce nutritious milk or even sufficient colostrum, fortunately I have mares who will be foaling out before her and I can strip off colostrum from them in preparation. If we get through foaling, her appetite may actually pick up as a lot of mares struggle with appetite to some degree in the final weeks of pregnancy since the foal takes up space.

    This illness has changed her most remarkably, a mere shadow of her former self. Still, she maintains her sweet demeanor and I give her lots of grooming, scratches, and attention. She's a fighter, though, I will give her that. Her foal appears to be equally feisty.
    https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses

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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodawn View Post
    Our mare is currently stable, but she is probably not going to survive this, long-term, sad to say. Her appetite is dismal. Scoping has not revealed any ulcers, but we suspect hind gut damage which is a big problem. I would be doing the happy dance if I could get 20 pounds of hay into her. She will eat her beet pulp - she gets 3 pounds dry weight worth every day, any more and she rejects it. I have managed to convince her that small amounts of Moorglo rice bran is not from outer space. This is quite a change from a mare who used to love food. The other most remarkable change is she is now bony instead of generously plump. This all coming at a time when her foal is gobbling calories. I'm trying a new feed product this week that is 20% fat, 20% fiber, low starch/sugar. Hopefully she likes it and will eat enough of it.

    She has graduated to a larger dry paddock, which pleases her enormously. She has the company of a kindly mare who submits to being bossed around. She is also finally off Previcox, particularly happy about this.

    Big discussion with the vets has firmly plunked me on Planet Reality. A number of serious things could go wrong at point of foaling. Due to her weakened condition, she might not survive the foaling, (the act of foaling take serious efforts out of the healthiest of mares and she is not well to begin with). And/or she will likely rebound into very severe laminitis within hours post foaling despite prompt preventative measures (due to the upheaval in hormones), and we should prepare for the real possibility the foal will be orphaned. They doubt she can survive another bout of laminitis, me either, actually, given how very severe this insult has been. Their warning included the expectation of a rather sickly foal who will need intensive care. The least - ulcer therapy. More likely - deformities, simply because she had been on massive doses of drugs, added to which it is all we can do to get minimal nutrition into the mare at a time when nutrients are crucial. Otherwise, should we get lucky and get through foaling, we should watch for the effects of the fall season bringing on the seasonal rise of higher cortisol levels which can set most at-risk horses off and she falls into this category now. She has the added bonus of a hormone change brought on by weaning off her foal. It's a lot to think about and cope with. Plan A, B, C, D . . .

    I force-feed vet-prescribed pregnancy vitamin/minerals into her, but she still needs those essential amino acids, calories, etc., that can only be obtained from eating real food. Her lack of appetite may impact her ability to produce nutritious milk or even sufficient colostrum, fortunately I have mares who will be foaling out before her and I can strip off colostrum from them in preparation. If we get through foaling, her appetite may actually pick up as a lot of mares struggle with appetite to some degree in the final weeks of pregnancy since the foal takes up space.

    This illness has changed her most remarkably, a mere shadow of her former self. Still, she maintains her sweet demeanor and I give her lots of grooming, scratches, and attention. She's a fighter, though, I will give her that. Her foal appears to be equally feisty.
    Sorry to hear I know it isn't the update you wanted to give us. What does Dr. Kellon think? Someone else you might want to consult is Esco Buff he does a lot of founder horses and his success rate is very high. Lots of jingles!


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  19. #99
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    I'm so sad for this update but will continue to hope that she will beat these odds & surprise everyone


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  20. #100
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    Very sad to hear it. In the "the devil you know vs. the devil you don't know" camp, since the original laminitis was not triggered by feed or obesity, does it still make sense (given the likeliest scenario) to withhold feeds that might be more palatable to her now? For the foal's sake, anyhow.
    Click here before you buy.


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