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  1. #21
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    Jan. 26, 2013
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    I'm so sorry you are going through all this. Is your mare unable to walk? We breed ponies so unfortunately have had to deal with more laminitis then we have ever wanted to over the last few decades. We always walk and walk our ponies, this increases the blood supply to the foot and helps them get through the pain. Our Vets have always said keeping them on 24/7 stall rest is the worst thing for them. I don't want to contradict your vet, but as things seem to be going badly I just thought I would share the option with you.



  2. #22
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    Jan. 26, 2013
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    Just wanted to Add that Alfalfa is very high in protein (as you know) but horses with liver and kidney failure need to be on low protein diets.



  3. #23
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    Mar. 6, 2009
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    Jingles & AO ~
    Zu Zu Bailey " IT"S A WONDERFUL LIFE !"



  4. #24
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfox View Post
    Just wanted to Add that Alfalfa is very high in protein (as you know) but horses with liver and kidney failure need to be on low protein diets.
    Agreed, not only is the high protein hard on liver and kidney functions but if there is even the slight possibility of even a mild metabolic issue alfalfa can be hard for horses to handle. Obviously, being pregnant is tough because the mare has certain requirements so I'd really recommend Dr. Kellon she has so much experience in balancing diets.

    So sorry your mare is struggling and lots of jingles!



  5. #25
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    Nov. 23, 2001
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    Catharpin, Virginia
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    The ONLY thing I could feed my severely IR/laminitic horse (who would also relapse if given a vaccine) was plain beet pulp OR Purina Wellsolve. For long stem fiber Lucerne Hi-Fi Gold. He lived well on that for years.

    So sorry you and your mare are going through this. Rough stuff.



  6. #26
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    Apr. 9, 2007
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    Zone IV/Area III
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    Thinking about you. That is such a tough situation to be in, and adding a pregnancy makes it that much harder. Please keep us updated.



  7. #27
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    Apr. 28, 2009
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    Alberta's bread basket
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    She is more stable today. Once again this morning, I am amazed to see she kept her foal. Her failure is improving with the removal of Bute, now 36 hours off. She drank a lot more water overnight than she had in a while and her urine is starting to look more normal. She also diuresed overnight and has lost a lot of her puffiness. Blood tests have confirmed her numbers have come down, so I am happier.



    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfox View Post
    Just wanted to Add that Alfalfa is very high in protein (as you know) but horses with liver and kidney failure need to be on low protein diets.
    She is not currently on high protein anything. There is no intention to put her on higher protein until at least mid-May which by then we are hoping the situation should be better. We are merely planning ahead to meet the nutritional demands of her pregnancy. When the appropriate time comes, not feeding her sufficient protein will devastate her body as the foal and later lactation will, quite simply, pull it out of her. The only time protein is hard on kidneys is when there is an excess of it. Fed appropriately to the horse's circumstances it is not problematic. This mare is pregnant and will be lactating, thus her nutritional needs are totally different to the average horse.

    Kidney and liver failure are not automatically permanent if you remove the inciting factor early enough and depending on what the cause is. Both organs are quite adept at repairing themselves once the instigator is removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfox View Post
    I'm so sorry you are going through all this. Is your mare unable to walk? We breed ponies so unfortunately have had to deal with more laminitis then we have ever wanted to over the last few decades. We always walk and walk our ponies, this increases the blood supply to the foot and helps them get through the pain. Our Vets have always said keeping them on 24/7 stall rest is the worst thing for them. I don't want to contradict your vet, but as things seem to be going badly I just thought I would share the option with you.
    This is true, but only once they're out of the acute stage. This is really dangerous to do in the acute stage when the laminae are still highly inflamed and fragile as excessive movement will cause shearing of the laminae off the hoof wall!

    My mare is now 41 days into this from the original episode, but she has never really settled and thus she is still very much so in acute laminitis. She does not really want to walk. I can leave her gate wide open and she won't leave the deep shavings. She is a mare who dances to her own drum, (i.e. not herd bound and quite happy to be doing her own thing), so in this situation, her judgment is correct. She is, however, not so sick that she doesn't get territorial if another mare pokes her head too far over her gate. She's in an outdoor box paddock so she's protected from wind and weather, but in the middle of farm activities and she likes this.

    Right now, my main priority is to get her through this acute problem so we can get her permanently off NSAIDs. NSAIDs are great in the acute stage, but terrible over the long-term and not just for ulcers. Long-term they can inhibit growth and repair and right now growth and repair is the only thing that will fix this.
    Last edited by rodawn; Feb. 21, 2013 at 03:17 PM.
    https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses

    Practice! Patience! Persistence!



  8. #28
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    Happy to hear your mare is improving and still lots of jingles for her and the foal.

    You mention she is still foot sore. Out of curiosity how is she shod/trimmed?



  9. #29
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    Apr. 28, 2009
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    Alberta's bread basket
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    Kwalker024 - with the x-rays, the farrier changed her trim and added a shoe with a 1/4 inch frog support. She was very happy and comfortable on these shoes; however, the main source of her laminitis is still what seems to be ongoing autoimmune reaction that continues. She will settle for a while and then flare. This last flare has lasted a week and it was the worse, equal to what happened on Jan 11. Farrier is coming tomorrow to pull the shoes as she is far from comfortable now. He wants to leave her barefoot with a new trim and keep her in the deep shavings until this acute flare settles and the x-rays are redone, which makes reasonable sense to me. The pulse is still there, but the bounding is much less pronounced. Now, only some sort of change either interior or exterior will be what sets her off again. Her food source is stable, so the most likely thing to set her off now are hormone fluctuations. This most recent severe flare has coincided with the time the naturally produced progestins start flat lining, around day 210. The next thing that I perceive will most likely set her off is the rise of prolactin hormones to prepare her udder for milk production and the rise of whatever hormones that come into play for her delivery of the foal.

    Someone earlier asked the question if this wasn't started by metabolic problem would feed make a difference? I asked that question to my vets in this morning's conference with them. Their answer has really scared me, actually. Because something as serious as what happened to her started systemically, anything and everything could now make her super sensitive. They have recommended she never be vaccinated again for the rest of her life. They have also recommended that even deworming her be done with preparation and precautions. Her feed will most likely now set her off and she will be highly suscptible and sensitive to additives in feed, sugars and fructans in grass and hay, and even unknown things in food stuffs. My vets specifically named soy as one specific ingredient to be mindful of since, like people, horses can be one of 2 things when it comes to allergens - either not at all, or seriously sensitive and even life-threateningly so.

    This was a mare who was never allergic to anything, but any human, any horse, any dog, any cat, anyone and everyone, can suddenly and spontaneously become super-allergic to a substance ingested, inhaled, or contacted on your skin. You can eat strawberries once and be fine. The next day you eat more strawberries and develop hives.

    There is more to the story behind the vaccination that she reacted to, but it may end up in litigation and I should not say much. I can safely state it was an incorrect vaccination that was given to my mare, despite me questioning it twice specifically enquiring if it was safe for a pregnant mare. I was assured that it was safe and it was given. Turns out, it was contraindicated in pregnant mares. I'm not sure what we're going to do about it yet. I may yet lose my mare, or my foal, or both. Or, I may get lucky and not lose either, but one can only ask for so many favors in life. In which case, I still will need to make a decision, but now I cannot focus on it. My whole day and night are taken up with her care and the care of my other pregnant mares, and one of those is also in a high-risk pregnancy. I'm sleep deprived, but have become a readaholic as I read everything I can find in published literature that I can get my hands on that might help in this situation. If anything, I will have become very well-educated.
    https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses

    Practice! Patience! Persistence!



  10. #30
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    Rodawn, it definitely sounds like you guys were in the right path with the frog support. I would be a little concerned especially while she is actively sore about removing her shoes and going barefoot. Would it be possible to have the farrier and vet out at the same time have the farrier remove the shoes, have the vet x-ray, and then evaluate from there what is going on?

    I feel for you I do when my gelding foundered trying to figure out the best way to proceed was very overwhelming at first. I can only imagine the added complication of the mare being pregnant as well as the vaccination issue.

    Your vets are very much correct that in the future worker and vaccinations may set off laminitic episodes again. I know certain vaccines are more prone to causing reactions then others. I know Dr. Kellons has done some research/written articles on both issues and those might be helpful to you.

    Did your mare have an rotation or descent on the last set of x-rays? A bar shoe or even barefoot with boots and orthotics in them might serve her better at this point if the frog support pad isn't cutting it anymore.

    Lots of jingles and fingers crossed for more improvement!!



  11. #31
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    Apr. 26, 2000
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    I really have nothing of substance to offer but just really wanted to say how sorry I am you are having to deal w/this! How many horses founder from neglectful situations/ignorant owners...here you are doing the right thing...and this. Happy thoughts & prayers and jingles a plenty...



  12. #32
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    Jun. 7, 2008
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    now in KCMO, and plan to stay there
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    I am so sorry. When you can provide the details about which vaccination it was and the manufacturer, we all will benefit by your sharing that. It certainly is understandable that you cannot say that now. I am praying and 'jingling' for your mare's complete recovery. That was a very smart move getting her off the Bute.
    Jeanie
    RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.



  13. #33
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    Nov. 8, 2012
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    gulf coast
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    Hi Rodawn, Glad things are better, If your mare can take it, Milk Thistle helps the liver heal. I have fed Figerola's Lamina Saver and had good success with it, and
    SaferGrass.org has lots of great info. There is a vet in my area who does accupunture on horses with laminitis, liver and kidney ailments, and also massage for the lactic acid build up in the muscles in the hind quarters. These supportive therapies might help calm your mare's hyper immune response.
    The small hole hay nets work very well to make meals last longer, which helps ulcers. Chromium has been shown in studies to help stabilize glucose levels
    I know she's not close to foaling, but do you or your vet have extra colostrum
    banked? Mares that are stressed sometimes deliver early and don't have as much as the baby needs. You need sleep to stay strong so take care of yourself too.



  14. #34
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    Nov. 12, 2001
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    Dry Ridge, KY USA
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    I have no input here, but to say that I am praying for your mare and for you to continue to have the strength to get through this ordeal. Jingling like mad, too.
    When in Doubt, let your horse do the Thinking!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #35
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    Nov. 26, 2005
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    709

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    In October 2010 one of my mares, then 6 months pregnant, became laminitic due to a number of events. This mare also has a hyper sensitivity to NSAID's which had previously led to renal failure (from which she recovered).
    Hence treating her with Bute or Banamine was out of the question.
    She had both sunk and rotated, was in a lot of pain and if she had not been pregnant the decision would have been obvious.
    After trying all the mechanical options, pads, clogs, soft rides,etc. none of which helped, some actually made it worse, this is what helped over a prolonged period of time:
    -Deep sawdust.
    -Pergolide, daily.
    -Previcox, daily.
    -When in really bad pain: narcotic pain meds in small doses as to not slow down gastric motility.
    -When Banamine had to absolutely be used, vet would come daily and pump fluids into her stomach. If needed,we were ready to run fluids the IV route.
    Complications:
    -when first starting Pergolide mare colicked. Had to start her at a lower dose and increase gradually.
    -a month before her "due" date we had to discontinue the Pergolide since it impedes lactation. She got worse and had her foal without ever getting up.
    After she foaled we put her back on Pergolide and she continued to make milk.
    Once the weight of the foal was off of her she got much better and actually was able to go outside and graze.
    This is what she and baby looked like a month after foaling:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u37euSIrYKg

    Needless to say we did not breed her again and will not ever in the future.
    She is still on Pergolide and Previcox and we keep her in an area in deep sawdust, where she trots out sound. She is by herself so nobody can chase her, but has horses on both sides and is very content.
    Foal was fine and perfectly healthy.

    A while back there was a thread on a soy free supplement/ ratio balancer, you might want to look into that for the protein.

    Good luck, I really feel for you, that was probably the worst experience in all my years of having horses.



  16. #36
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    I thought I read an update from earlier today about some setbacks but that she had bounced back but maybe my mind is playing tricks on me lol.

    Hope she continues to improve lots of jingles!



  17. #37
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    Apr. 28, 2009
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    The problem with previcox is this is a canine formulation and horses require less mg than even a dog does and if a horse is given the dog formulation, there is no safety margin whatsoever for accidental overdose. For example, a labrador dog weighing 80 pounds will need 45 mg, but a horse weighing 1250 pounds will need about half that and the consequences for overdose can be fatal. Equioxx is the same drug, but is diluted and formulated in a paste to provide a margin of safety. The equine metabolizes drugs far differently than canines or humans, so do be very careful. Your vet is risking his/her license providing you the Previcox for a horse.
    https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses

    Practice! Patience! Persistence!



  18. #38
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    Feb. 15, 2004
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    Ontario
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    Equioxx is not approved in Canada and your vet would be risking his license by providing it here. Previcox, at a 57 mg dose every day, is safe and effective for most horses. In your case, I guess safe meds can be dangerous. Good luck.



  19. #39
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    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Minnesota
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodawn View Post
    The problem with previcox is this is a canine formulation and horses require less mg than even a dog does and if a horse is given the dog formulation, there is no safety margin whatsoever for accidental overdose. For example, a labrador dog weighing 80 pounds will need 45 mg, but a horse weighing 1250 pounds will need about half that and the consequences for overdose can be fatal. Equioxx is the same drug, but is diluted and formulated in a paste to provide a margin of safety. The equine metabolizes drugs far differently than canines or humans, so do be very careful. Your vet is risking his/her license providing you the Previcox for a horse.

    Err, no. Your numbers are a little off.

    Equine dosing of firocoxib: 0.045 mg/lb

    Canine dosing of firocoxib: 2.27 mg/lb

    Which means a 1250 lb horse requires 56.25 mg of firocoxib, and an 80 lb dog requires 181.60 mg of firocoxib.

    One tube (one dose) of Equioxx delivers 56.826 mg of firocoxib, and the syringe is labeled to treat 1250 lbs.

    Conveniently, Previcox is available in two strengths: 57 mg tabs and 227 mg tabs. The 57 mg tab is a perfectly fine dose for your average equine, and many, many people split the 227 mg tabs into four 56.75 mg doses, which is also just fine.

    Many vets advise double dosing for a loading period of 3 - 5 days--there's a pretty wide margin of safety there.

    While it would be a terrible idea to dump a whole bottle of Previcoxx into your horse's grain bucket, using it instead of Equioxx is far from risky.



  20. #40
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    Apr. 28, 2009
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    Well, I'm the first to admit I'm not a vet and my little knowledge if any is what I can glean from reading (and I've been slugging through a LOT of published literature at this point) and I'm swimming in too many factoids and far too little sleep. We do have to be very careful with her because the working theory is this all started from a supersensitivity reaction to a vaccine. We know she's okay with banamine. We also know she is not Cushings at all - even now in the winter, she is not a hairy yak and she is starting to shed already, like the rest of my gang are (seems a bit early, but temps have been above seasonal all month). She is an easy keeper, but doesn't show any signs of a metabolic problem. This mare cycles normally and got in foal super easy with little management which speaks against most metabolic syndromes.

    My farrier was a little concerned yesterday - he said after 43 days of fairly severe laminitis there should be some sign of blood bruising into her sole and there is none. There should also be signs of white line stretching and there is none. He frankly suggested we need a second opinion.

    Today, we have had a lot of difficulty controlling her pain again and so I put in a call to a vet in Calgary who works with my repro vet for a second opinion. When I described the events and circumstances and mentioned what my farrier stated, the vet also said that definitely a fresh set eyes and a new set of x-rays is warranted. This vet also suggested the current dose of banamine is too conservative and increased it to get her through the night.

    The good news is her foal is still alive and kicking.
    https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses

    Practice! Patience! Persistence!



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