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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by zipperfoot View Post
    It's my understanding that HYPP only occurs in QH and QH crosses, specifically in horses that trace back to Impressive. Impressive had a high percentage of TB blood (line-bred Three Bars IIRC), but apparently the mutation first occurred in him, not his TB predecessors. Are there any research studies that verify that it also occurs in TBs?
    LOL, no, you are right. I forgot we were talking about HYPP at that point and I jumped over to Frame
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    No disagreement here It will be interesting to know in the future if the link is actually genetic, or if it's a man-made issue by choosing one trait and inadvertently bring along the WSS. If it's the latter, it can be bred out while retaining the quality characteristics.
    ? not sure what you are saying - but HWSS has been "proven" to be genetic by a researcher at Davis -right now they are working on a test........

    also fwiw, it is HWSS not WSS



  3. #43
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    It seems like if you want to protect genetic diversity, prevent horses from being bred that have recessive genetic defects the best option would be to not allow stallions to produce registered offspring. As nice as it would be to see all horse owners step up and make sure they don't produce animals with horrible genetic defects it doesn't seem to be happening.



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    ? not sure what you are saying - but HWSS has been "proven" to be genetic by a researcher at Davis -right now they are working on a test........
    Of course it's genetic, that's not what I mean. What I mean is - is there an unbreakable genetic link between HWSS and whatever it is that makes these horses so wonderful, is it like Frame where frame IS Lethal White (in the homozgyous form) and LWO IS Frame) OR, were these 2 things separate to begin with, they happened to come together in a line or an individual, and because the one trait was bred for (the wonderfulness) the HWSS was inadvertently also brought along, giving rise to the homozygous horses and the further spread of the disease.

    also fwiw, it is HWSS not WSS
    yeah, sorry, not sure why I keep leaving out the H
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by FayeHanoverian View Post
    It seems like if you want to protect genetic diversity, prevent horses from being bred that have recessive genetic defects the best option would be to not allow stallions to produce registered offspring. As nice as it would be to see all horse owners step up and make sure they don't produce animals with horrible genetic defects it doesn't seem to be happening.
    It may not be happening with everyone, but people have gone to an amazing amount of trouble to prevent recessives from being bred together. When the first recessive was found in Arabs about 30 years ago, people stuck their head in the sand and then came around to testing programs and advertising that their horses were SCID, CA, and LFS clear. So people who are knowledgeable and responsible are definitely doing their job.

    That is not the kind of person we are talking about in this thread. The knowledge and means were there for her to do the responsible thing and she did not. No excuse. No way to legislate this type of person out of the breeding business. Very sad for the foal.


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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    LOL, no, you are right. I forgot we were talking about HYPP at that point and I jumped over to Frame
    LOL, that's OK--I wondered if you were talking about frame, but figured I should ask since I haven't kept up on recent HYPP research.

    Just want to go on record that I think AQHA's stance on HYPP is ridiculous--they're just caving to those breeders that think N/H halter horses exemplify the breed ideal--YUCK!



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Carriers of HYPP should never be allowed to breed, because nH IS having the disease, not merely a carrier. But HERDA carriers are unaffected in the hetero state, and sure, there can be an argument to allow them to breed to non-carriers, but still - why? In this case, it's a QH thing, diversity is not an issue, why not disallow registration of all carriers and just get rid of the disease? well, "get rid of" as best we can, as there will always be unregistred crossbred carriers There isn't any benefit, aesthetic or otherwise, to allow carriers to remain around, not like Frame/LWO
    I agree that the HYPP carriers should not be registered or bred, but I don't believe it's accurate to say there isn't any aesthetic benefit to keeping those horses. Impressive was a very muscular halter horse, a huge winner, and a very prepotent sire. The halter people like that look; I think it's safe to say that's why these (N/H) horses are still being bred and registered. I read somewhere that unfortunately the (H/H) HYPP horses are still being allowed into the Paint and Appaloosa registries.
    I heard a neigh. Oh, such a brisk and melodious neigh as that was! My very heart leaped with delight at the sound. --Nathaniel Hawthorne



  8. #48
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    What's even worse is breeders who purposefully breed FOR HYPP because they are just positive it will make that muscular-looking horse There are plenty of ?H horses who are lean, and there are lots of NN horses who look like they're on steroids (which I agree, is just a disgusting look). So, that blows that out of the water, yet they still cling to it as a stupid (because you can't fix that) excuse of why to keep purposefully breeding for it

    That proves you can breed for that look without the risks of HYPP
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  9. #49
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    And yes, APHA and ApHA still allow HH horses There is even a group of folks getting going a registry for HH QH's so they will have somewhere to go, so...
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  10. #50
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    Really, really sad.
    I heard a neigh. Oh, such a brisk and melodious neigh as that was! My very heart leaped with delight at the sound. --Nathaniel Hawthorne



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldernewbie View Post
    When the first recessive was found in Arabs about 30 years ago, people stuck their head in the sand and then came around to testing programs and advertising that their horses were SCID, CA, and LFS clear. So people who are knowledgeable and responsible are definitely doing their job.
    Yet although the test for SCID has been available since the 90's, less than 20% of Arabians of breeding age have been tested to date. I don't call that responsible, unless people are only breeding untested mares to tested stallions. Call me a pessimist, but somehow I doubt it.

    Unlike this ignorant QH/Paint breeder, SCID and the other Arab genetic problems are rarely evident at birth. These folks just bury their oopsies, nobody the wiser. In many cases they probably don’t even know why their foals got sick and died.

    Until the AHR mandates all PB foals be tested before registration papers are issued, affected foals will still be born (and die) on a regular basis. Given the low rate of testing, the majority aren’t going to do the right thing unless forced.



  12. #52
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    I just checked in on the thread briefly and had to click off. People are congratulating her for doing the right thing for the colt. Too bad she/he didn't do the right thing for the mare 11 or in this case 12 months ago.


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  13. #53
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    FWIW...20+ years ago when we were first looking for a fancy H/J type paint stallion, I came across a breeder who specialized in blk/white overos, mostly frame. I asked about the LWO problem and her reply was that. "yes, they average 4-5 a year, but it was worth the chance!!" I immediately scratched THAT breeder off my list!! 25% chance of a LW baby is NOT an acceptable chance I'd take!! Of course many QH and paint breeders are dealing with 100's of mares making babies. Maybe they can live with those odds!!
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma



  14. #54
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    OMG that is horrific! I really want to post that I hope this foal will be a lesson to others and his death wasn't in vain but I am sure even that would get deleted and possibly get me banned. I don't want to beat a dead horse, pun intended but I don't think it is something that should be glossed over either. They need to own up to their mistake and vow publicly not to make it again in my opinion.


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  15. #55
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    how did she do the right thing? It was going to drop dead anyway. Did she Euth him or let him die? It doesn't matter. How can you breed and risk your mare and foal just to have a dead foal at the end of the day (knowing that could be the outcome)? WTF?
    *^*^*^
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by crosscreeksh View Post
    FWIW...20+ years ago when we were first looking for a fancy H/J type paint stallion, I came across a breeder who specialized in blk/white overos, mostly frame. I asked about the LWO problem and her reply was that. "yes, they average 4-5 a year, but it was worth the chance!!" I immediately scratched THAT breeder off my list!! 25% chance of a LW baby is NOT an acceptable chance I'd take!! Of course many QH and paint breeders are dealing with 100's of mares making babies. Maybe they can live with those odds!!

    That is EXACTLY what I was talking about

    They have NO better odds of a live Frame foal by breeding Frame to Frame - it's 50/50 either way. They only put that 25% chance of a dead foal in there. HOW is that "worth it"???
    ______________________________
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcloisonne View Post
    Yet although the test for SCID has been available since the 90's, less than 20% of Arabians of breeding age have been tested to date. I don't call that responsible, unless people are only breeding untested mares to tested stallions. Call me a pessimist, but somehow I doubt it.

    Unlike this ignorant QH/Paint breeder, SCID and the other Arab genetic problems are rarely evident at birth. These folks just bury their oopsies, nobody the wiser. In many cases they probably don’t even know why their foals got sick and died.

    Until the AHR mandates all PB foals be tested before registration papers are issued, affected foals will still be born (and die) on a regular basis. Given the low rate of testing, the majority aren’t going to do the right thing unless forced.
    Just to be the devil's advocate, I can think of some reasons why not all horses would be tested. If a horse is gelded, or never to be bred, why bother testing. Also if you know that both parents are negative - since there are many public lists of carriers and non-carriers, and a lot more knowledge now about which lines tend to be carriers - probably no test. But I am surprised that the number is that low in any case. Where did you get the number? (Genuinely curious, not trying to be a pain!)



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    That is EXACTLY what I was talking about

    They have NO better odds of a live Frame foal by breeding Frame to Frame - it's 50/50 either way. They only put that 25% chance of a dead foal in there. HOW is that "worth it"???
    **********

    I think there are two kinds of breeders who fit this catagory...ignorant ones who just don't "know" and the very large businesses (mostly found out here in "livestock country") who consider horses in the same class as cattle and just write off the lost ones!! I can't begin to imagine spending the time, money and effort of an 11 month gestation knowing in the back of my mind there was a 25% chance I was condeming a foal to a painful death. I know the "frame" look is desireable, but I would NEVER consider adding that risk to my breeding program.
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    OMG that is horrific! I really want to post that I hope this foal will be a lesson to others and his death wasn't in vain but I am sure even that would get deleted and possibly get me banned. I don't want to beat a dead horse, pun intended but I don't think it is something that should be glossed over either. They need to own up to their mistake and vow publicly not to make it again in my opinion.
    I will speak up if you give me the link to the actual "conversation". If I were to be banned would it keep me from watching COTHer's mares late at night? ( links from this forum,from specific COTH members, are the only way I have ever visited "mare stare").

    Those are the only ones I'm interested in watching ( I have no desire to see much of what is out there I'm sure) ,and I can be of use because I keep late hours.



  20. #60
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    I have first hand heartbreak with HYPP. About 30 years ago I bred 2 mares to an Impressive grandson. He looked more TB and was a 10++ mover. One was a TB mare and the other an appendix mare both had fillies. The TB mares foal had coordination issues at birth that improved some but was finally euthanized when weaned for her own safety. The other ones issues became apparent when I started breaking her. We had her at New Bolton twice for in-coordination issues. She was xrayed from stem to stern with no definitive diagnosis. Their only suggestion was to give her time, she was a big filly. About 2 months later the whole Impressive HYPP issue was exposed. I received a call from NB to bring her back for bloodwork and sure enough that was the issue and they felt was also the issue with the other filly. I was so angry!!!! I vowed then to do alot more research and become an informed, super responsible breeder. I still feel guilty about those innocent fillies.
    If there are no pets in Heaven then I want to go where they went !!!
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