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  1. #61
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    S1969- exactly! It drives me crazy to see dogs in the shelter because they 'have to much energy for apartment'. Really, a 6 month old cattle dog isn't a good apartment dog? What a shocker!

    I wish more people would choose appropriate breeds. For example, my parents like an easy going dog, low maintenance dog that will keep up on 30-90 minute off leash walks every day. For them, our lab is perfect. She'll sleep all day, go on her daily jaunt, then go back to bed.

    I love the lab dearly, but I like a dog with focus. Not necessarily go all day energy like a hunting dog, but a drive to work. I'm unfortunately in school and can't have a dog, but I prefer our border collie/hound cross, who likes to *do* things. I wish he had even more drive though, and for my own first dog will pick a breed who likes to work (perhaps an aussie or BC). When I'm not home, the dog drives my poor parents up a wall though, because he *stares* at them hoping they'll do something.
    Quote Originally Posted by pinecone View Post
    I can't decide if I should saddle up the drama llama, dust off the clue bat, or get out my soapbox.



  2. #62
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    S1969...exactly! Poor breed to owner match-ups have got to be the number one cause of behavioral problems and even homeless dogs.

    I can't begin to tell you how many horse folks I know around here who have JRTs and Corgis and have tons of problems with them.
    "S/he's high strung/psycho/destructive/impossible to train!"

    No...s/he needs a JOB. Just because both breeds are thought of as The Horse Person's Proper Pet...does not make it so. Don't get it because it's trendy to be seen around town and shows with that breed. Because if the only time that dog gets out and does anything other than be a couch potato is to run errands with you or a 1-2 hour trip to the boarding barn...of course it's gonna be a tad neurotic!

    And don't pick a breed based on physical attraction. "It's pretty" or "it's cool looking" is the last reason to get a dog. Look up all of it's attributes and it's breed-particular purpose. If it's a herding dog, it's gonna wanna herd stuff. If it's a scent hound, you're not going to convince it to stay in the yard or run next to your horse and not wander off. If it's a sight hound...dear Lordy fence your yard HIGH and don't think bunnies and kittehs are good companions for it. Anything that moves quick may become a target. And if it's a high energy or really smart dog...and you're not one to take it outside and tire it out multiple times every day or teach it a lot to keep it's brain engaged...pick something from the "companion pet" category.

    My fave was a cattle dog that the owner was gobsmacked that it chased the neighbor's cows whenever it could. Which kinda pissed off the neighbor. Dude...it's a CATTLE dog!
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  3. #63
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    I have two favorites:

    My former boss and her husband, who owned two businesses and each worked between 40-80 hours per week, had a full time nanny and a 6 year old daughter and 3 year old disabled son got....... a purebred border collie puppy. Yep. Perfect match, right? Not surprisingly, they got very tired of it chasing their son and destroying the house, and about 6-7 months later it nipped their son on the heels and they rehomed it. Not sure where it ended up. Hopefully with someone who knew more about BCs than they did.

    And, my former hairdresser that owned two Pekineses with his boyfriend. Took a trip to the shelter one day and "saw the world's ugliest dog and knew it would never be adopted so we got it"...showed me the picture and it was...a blue merle Australian Shepherd puppy (about 6 months old). They didn't realize it wasn't some sort of skin condition that made it that color, but were impressed at how smart it was! I think they brought it back about a week later. Again, hope it found a better match - at least they were smart enough to realize it was a mistake and took it back asap.



  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    S1969...exactly! Poor breed to owner match-ups have got to be the number one cause of behavioral problems and even homeless dogs.
    I think it might tie for "dog must be trained" as number one. Or, depending on the issue, they jump back and forth.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
    S1969- exactly! It drives me crazy to see dogs in the shelter because they 'have to much energy for apartment'. Really, a 6 month old cattle dog isn't a good apartment dog? What a shocker!
    it's not the fact of the square space they live in, as much as the amount of appropriate attention and outlets for the dog. A Cattle Dog would be fine in an apartment if it got to agility 2x a week and basic good manners training once a week. If the people worked the dog, then it wouldn't be so frustrated.



  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1969 View Post
    I have two favorites:

    My former boss and her husband, who owned two businesses and each worked between 40-80 hours per week, had a full time nanny and a 6 year old daughter and 3 year old disabled son got....... a purebred border collie puppy. Yep. Perfect match, right? Not surprisingly, they got very tired of it chasing their son and destroying the house, and about 6-7 months later it nipped their son on the heels and they rehomed it. Not sure where it ended up. Hopefully with someone who knew more about BCs than they did.

    And, my former hairdresser that owned two Pekineses with his boyfriend. Took a trip to the shelter one day and "saw the world's ugliest dog and knew it would never be adopted so we got it"...showed me the picture and it was...a blue merle Australian Shepherd puppy (about 6 months old). They didn't realize it wasn't some sort of skin condition that made it that color, but were impressed at how smart it was! I think they brought it back about a week later. Again, hope it found a better match - at least they were smart enough to realize it was a mistake and took it back asap.
    Ugh! That kind of decision-making makes me crazy... because while I don't care what people do with their money, I do care about what's in the best interest for the dog they are taking on.

    It's like MistyBlue said as well... way too many people choose breeds based on what's "trendy" or what they think looks cool. I currently have a border collie mix and she would lose her mind if she was cooped up inside all day! And she's not even a full border collie.



  7. #67
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    I haven't read most of this thread but I'll answer the OP's question.

    I have had three rottweilers in my life...1 rescue who was my first and two that I currently have are from the same Code of Ethics breeder. I was very active in a New England based Rottweiler rescue organization and was their volunteer coordinator for my state for a couple of years.

    My first rottweiler was enormous...28.5" tall at the withers and completely out of the breed standard for a male. I adopted him at 1 year old from the local animal shelter. He was hit by a car before we adopted him and had metal in his hips and I can imagine he didn't have the best joints. I later learned after having him for a couple of years, he was originally purchased at a pet store. He didn't have a bad temperament but he needed training and that lead me on my journey of dog sports. I started to show him in obedience but couldn't go any further than Novice. In AKC open and Utility he would have had to get himself over a 28" high/bar jump and a 56" wide broad jump. There was no way his body would have let him do that over and over and over again. So we did some rally and then he got really sick with Cushings disease. He retired to therapy work until he died.

    So, after catching the performance dog bug, I went the route of a rottweiler breeder who deals with producing working dogs and I haven't regretted that decision one bit. I have dogs that came from proven working dogs with stable temperaments, great drive to work, and healthy bodies. As long as my breeder is producing rottweilers, I will always have a rottweiler from her. I do agility, rally, therapy work, conformation, and competitive obedience with the two I have now. I love having dogs that are so very versatile.

    I don't feel any less upset about rescue dogs/rottweilers. But, I am so much more educated in what I expect from a dog in both mind and body...I just like knowing what I'm getting and having the support from the breeder if I need it. If I got out of dog sports (which I don't see happening unless I'm incapacitated somehow) I would consider getting a rescued rottweiler from a legitimate rescue that does temperament tests and foster the dogs in volunteers' homes for a period of time.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #68
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    we are having our dogs "inspected" it is called the conformation show ring. If they meet the criteria they win. If not they don't. We follow a breed standard of behavior health and looks for the breeds already.
    I am very opposed to conformation showing. Dogs bred for the conformation ring are not being "inspected" or judged on any of the actual real characteristics that are important for dogs- no health testing, no behavioral/instinct tests, no temperament checks.
    Yes, in SOME breeds there are a FEW breeders who actually test their dogs with appropriate tests- schutzhund for GSDs, hunting trials, etc. in addition to conformation. But they are a minority. In many breeds, there is a distinct split of "conformation" dogs and "real" dogs, and the conformation lines not only cannot do the task the breed was originally bred for, oddly enough they often look remarkably different from the "real" dogs, such that the "real" ones, the ones that actually meet the breed standard in all ways, tend to not win in the conformation ring. Go watch the crippled waddling devoid-of-drive conformation GSDs, the show collies who couldn't herd if their lives depended on it, the fat labs with zero innate retrieving drive.
    I know people who show winning dogs in the conformation ring and these dogs are unable to be pets because of their horrible temperaments, and they are incapable of performing their "breed functions", and some of them have health problems, but they win in the ring, and thus they will get bred and the offspring sold far and wide, and then they will end up in the shelters because of their awful temperaments.

    My proposal that we actually have a proper inspection of dogs before they can produce registerable puppies would, in addition to forcing the show-breeders to actually breed for temperament, health, and behavior in addition to looks, would seriously hamper the backyard breeders and cripple the puppy mills. Right now anyone who can get hold of two AKC-registered purebreds can breed them and sell the puppies as registered purebreds to suckers. If the parents had to be approved first, as true examples of the breed, before their puppies can be registered these types of people would be stopped in their tracks. Of course they can turn their hand to breeding designer mutts, but at least they would be unable to continue polluting the genetics of the purebreds.

    Look at this breed of hunting dog (not recognized by AKC, but a real breed from Germany) for an example- it's a hunting breed, and you can't register the offspring of a dog unless the dog proves itself in hunt tests.

    NAPPA like many breed clubs, requires a Utility Title for males and a
    minimum score of 105 points in natural ability for females of the breed to
    qualify for breeding. Many NAPPA breeders exceed this minimum by
    requiring a Utility Title for their females. NAPPA commends these breeders.
    While other clubs may use their own breed registry NAPPA uses the North
    American Versatile Hunting Dog Association (NAVHDA) registry and testing
    system. The American Field registry is also used by some NAPPA breeders.
    The NAVHDA testing system successfully removes any breeder bias by
    using an independent three judge system to evaluate and score tested dogs.



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    My proposal that we actually have a proper inspection of dogs before they can produce registerable puppies would, in addition to forcing the show-breeders to actually breed for temperament, health, and behavior in addition to looks, would seriously hamper the backyard breeders and cripple the puppy mills. Right now anyone who can get hold of two AKC-registered purebreds can breed them and sell the puppies as registered purebreds to suckers.
    "Show breeders" aren't the problem. They already do these things - pay for health screenings and do conformation, field, agility, obedience, etc. Some don't but many do (how many show breeders do you really know that don't do health checks - seriously? Or are you just saying that show breeders don't do health checks?

    The bigger issue is the backyard breeders and puppy mill breeders who are just as happy to have CKC registration if they couldn't get AKC registration.

    Seriously, these are apples and oranges. Yes, you might find some show breeders who really don't care about temperament and only about health and looks - but the backyard breeders/puppy mills don't care about any of them except the money.

    In the end, your proposal will only cause backyard breeders to find a different kennel club (or a new one will be created) and good breeders will just have to pay their registry more money and drive up the prices of their breeding. And unlike a warmblood that might sell for $100,000; it's unlikely the average pet owner will buy a "new, improved" registered dog that costs thousands of dollars.

    Personally, I think much of the blame should be placed on the buyers as well - five minutes on Google can help them know if they are getting suckered or not. Or buying from a puppy mill, or getting a dog without proper health checks.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #70
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    Amen!



  11. #71
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    Interesting post from a rescue. Although I don't agree with the "never buy from a breeder" introduction, she makes some good points.

    http://luckydogrescueblog.blogspot.c...m-breeder.html
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1969 View Post
    "Show breeders" aren't the problem. They already do these things - pay for health screenings and do conformation, field, agility, obedience, etc. Some don't but many do (how many show breeders do you really know that don't do health checks - seriously? Or are you just saying that show breeders don't do health checks?

    The bigger issue is the backyard breeders and puppy mill breeders who are just as happy to have CKC registration if they couldn't get AKC registration.

    Seriously, these are apples and oranges. Yes, you might find some show breeders who really don't care about temperament and only about health and looks - but the backyard breeders/puppy mills don't care about any of them except the money.

    In the end, your proposal will only cause backyard breeders to find a different kennel club (or a new one will be created) and good breeders will just have to pay their registry more money and drive up the prices of their breeding. And unlike a warmblood that might sell for $100,000; it's unlikely the average pet owner will buy a "new, improved" registered dog that costs thousands of dollars.

    Personally, I think much of the blame should be placed on the buyers as well - five minutes on Google can help them know if they are getting suckered or not. Or buying from a puppy mill, or getting a dog without proper health checks.
    Yep. In my breed the show breeders are the ones breeding for temperament and doing health checks. If you get one from a backyard breeder, you risk getting an evil tempered dog with Glaucoma and luxating patellas.
    Legislation is already making it harder and harder on small, hobby show breeders and easier for big mill operations. My cynical side thinks this is all part of the overall plan to crush the little guys first because they are low hanging fruit.
    You are what you dare.



  13. #73
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    On the subject of people getting inappropriate dogs ...

    One of my coworkers really really reeeeeeeeeeally wanted a dog. I tried
    repeatedly to talk her out of it.

    She lives in the city, in an apartment, and has a very young child.

    The shelter wouldn't adopt a dog to her because of this. So, she went
    to a mall pet store and bought a 6 month old poodle/something mix puppy. It
    was probably a puppy mill dog.

    She thought that this dog should use the wire / mesh fire escape for its
    bathroom, and couldn't understand why it kept going all over the house.

    Guess she didn't realize that you have to actually TRAIN them to go
    outside ? And that peeing on a metal grate isn't all that attractive
    to a dog ?

    Anyway, the dog lasted a few months and then she decided to find it a home.
    Luckily another coworker took him in and he has a great home.

    But now she wants another dog. She really reeeeeeeallly reaaaally wants one ...



  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1969 View Post
    "The bigger issue is the backyard breeders and puppy mill breeders who are just as happy to have CKC registration if they couldn't get AKC registration.
    Seriously. The problem breeders don't care if they have AKC papers or not. The whole reason there IS a "Continental Kennel Club" is the AKC doesn't register labradoodles, maltie-poos, westie-poos, shi-yorkie-poos, chi-shi-poos, cockapoodledoos, or whatever trendy little purse dogs are "in" at the moment. (Yes, I'm aware there are deadly serious labradoodle people who are only breeding type to type trying to produce a healthy, consistent dog. They are not the norm for poodle-cross breeders.) The AKC limiting things isn't going to do a darn thing to stop them or other puppy mill breeders because they don't give a crap about the AKC-their average customer is happy to cough up $500+ for a cute little teddy bear puppy who's "just a pet", after all, not a "show dog", so who cares what papers it has as long as it's a "registered" whatever.



  15. #75
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    in most breeds, the conformation show breeders are the ones ruining the breed. The backyard breeders and puppy mills come along for the ride.

    I will never buy a dog from a breeder who values conformation titles. Breeders should put performance titles on their dogs, not silly "pranced around the ring" titles. My own breed is being ruined right now by conformation breeders and it's infuriating to watch happen. They are supposed to be valued for certain acts they can perform, not what they look like. The conformation ring does not in any way test them for adhering to the breed standard because their breed what they look like is irrelevant. It's how they act that is relevant.

    And you say it's buyer beware? have you looked at some of the websites these puppy mill people are putting out there these days? it's more difficult than you'd think to avoid them. Wasn't there a thread on here not long ago with a Doberman breeder with a really impressive website, but it was revealed she was an abusive puppy miller? I can't blame people for being taken in by her website. It was really convincing.



  16. #76
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    Was it a mail-order web site? Did they just click on the puppy they wanted and it was mailed to them?



  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    in most breeds, the conformation show breeders are the ones ruining the breed.
    we must travel in very different circles. The breeders I know & have dealt with do hips/eyes/track health issues and are well read on the most recent studies and research. One was an AKC judge, and although I know you don't like that the dogs have "silly prced around the ring titles", you don't simply apply for and get a judging certificate from the AKC. Another was a DVM who gets her dogs out in the ring to see how they compare to others in the breed. Yet another gets titles at both ends of the dogs name.

    I will never buy a dog from a breeder who values conformation titles. Breeders should put performance titles on their dogs, not silly "pranced around the ring" titles.
    You know, this shows a remarkably narrow point of view. Do you have horses? Do you ever go look at the conformation of a horse and use that as ONE yardstick to decide if you want to purchase that animal? How a dog or horse is built will directly impact things like movement, ability to do some tasks or sports. I value conformation titles, as well as temperament evals and maybe something on the other end of a name as well.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by dappled View Post
    This is a really great point. It's actually fairly plain to see why mixed breeds and mutts seem to be healthier and live longer - they have such a higher mix of genes and we all know that genetic variation is a good thing.

    I think a lot of breeds will continue to become extinct, if not for lack of demand, than for no other reason that they are becoming extremely inbred just for the sole purpose of cranking out as many puppies as possible. So much of it has become a money-making franchise, sadly.
    Simply having "more" genetic diversity, in itself, is not only no better guarantee than multiple generations of healthy dogs in a (any) breed, it is not even a guarantee of better odds.

    Take us for instance. We know the genetic diversity in our breed. It's 4.6. We know the Co-efficient of Inbreeding in every mating we do. We have bred 6 generations of Havanese, have at least one of each generation in our house, 7th generation due in a couple of weeks, and we have not had one single individual with ANY kind of congenital health problem.

    We do know conformation. My wife taught AKC Judges how to judge our breed for seven years.

    What you are saying is that we would have a better chance of producing healthy puppies, and simply better individuals if we bred to some dog running around on the street. Look at Posh's page. There is a movie of him moving in the showring, and pictures of him doing agility on his page. Show breeders only ruin a breed if the Parent Club allows it.

    And you won't find us advertising on Craigslist, or in the local newspaper, or anywhere. We do have a website. Our puppies go to only the best homes, and they are, to a one, very educated successful families. We have families come for visits from all over this and other countries before they get a puppy. The ones coming from the most distance, who came for a visit, came from Korea. Visits are encouraged.

    We only have 2 or 3 litters a year, and get inquiries almost every day. For instance today we had two email inquiries, and I just got off the phone from another one while I was typing this. The list for the upcoming litter was long before the pair were ever put together to start with. Their pedigree was planned years before either were conceived.

    All our farm dogs have been rescues, and most have had some sort of ailment, and few lived long lives.

    If you want to increase your odds of getting what you want, go to a breeder like us.

    www.starbornhavanese.com


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    in most breeds, the conformation show breeders are the ones ruining the breed. The backyard breeders and puppy mills come along for the ride.
    Please elaborate - when you say "ruin" the breed, I assume you mean breeding for specific traits (undesirable, in your opinion). How many breeds have you researched? How many breeders do you know, and do you know whether the breed standards have changed over time? I think it's very easy for the armchair quarterback to watch Westminster and say "oh, they are ruining the breed" - be specific. I can say that my breed has changed over the years, but only a breeder/fancier would actually notice the difference. [/QUOTE]


    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    I will never buy a dog from a breeder who values conformation titles. Breeders should put performance titles on their dogs, not silly "pranced around the ring" titles. My own breed is being ruined right now by conformation breeders and it's infuriating to watch happen. They are supposed to be valued for certain acts they can perform, not what they look like. The conformation ring does not in any way test them for adhering to the breed standard because their breed what they look like is irrelevant. It's how they act that is relevant.
    No one ever claimed that the conformation ring is a way to measure dogs for anything other than conformation. Believe it or not, owners actually have a choice to buy from a breeder that has dogs with more than just a conformation title. If you don't like what you see, most definitely, don't feel pressured to buy. But if you are infuriated by the breeders out there, you could always try breeding yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    And you say it's buyer beware? have you looked at some of the websites these puppy mill people are putting out there these days? it's more difficult than you'd think to avoid them. Wasn't there a thread on here not long ago with a Doberman breeder with a really impressive website, but it was revealed she was an abusive puppy miller? I can't blame people for being taken in by her website. It was really convincing.
    One could try getting off the couch and going to see the breeder before they place their "order" via the internet.



  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom King View Post
    If you want to increase your odds of getting what you want, go to a breeder like us.

    www.starbornhavanese.com
    Go Tom!



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