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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by dappled View Post
    How do you feel about people who spend thousands of dollars on purebred dogs when there are shelter dogs being euthanized daily purely due to lack of space? Do you put value on the maintenance of breeds?
    Do you think we will ever see certain breeds go "extinct?"
    Last first - I certainly hope some breeds go extinct. It's harsh, but so is the alternative which we're now living with - vast numbers of dogs being created with nowhere to go because they make suitable pets for very few people. I'm talking, of course, of the pit bulls. I'd be happy if they were changed to eliminate dog-aggression, but I can't see how that'll happen. The people creating them are doing it for that trait, for money, and aren't about to quit just because it's destructive and monstrous to mass produce puppies for a death sport and shrug the excess off without a viable future. Some of the most deformed breeds also need to be extinct or modified so they can breathe/whelp/live past 6/etc.

    I have no problem with people buying a purebred dog as a pet for a lot of money, if the breeder is a decent, responsible breeder who competes with the dogs in some way, has them registered, has limited breedings, is deeply invested in the breed's health and future, etc., etc. If you want a particular breed and it's uncommon in shelters, or want the security of a dog from someone who is somewhat willing to stand behind their puppies, go for it. I have less patience with the people who want a competition dog and feel that only a purebred or a specialized crossbred is going to take them ALL THE WAY in - er, flyball. Seriously? That's not a good enough reason, for me. Wanting to cover all your bases because you want to have a safe family dog, or wanting a particular breed because you've lost your heart to one - I get that, that's part emotion, part responsible rationality. But the sport argument is just - not real compelling.


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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    I have less patience with the people who want a competition dog and feel that only a purebred or a specialized crossbred is going to take them ALL THE WAY in - er, flyball. Seriously?
    Seriously. Think about Susan Garrett. She wants a purebred comp dog and she wants a high drive dog that will compete at international levels.

    Honestly, how different is this than those who want a sport horse to compete with? Even tho breeders only have one foal per year, they might breed 8 or more times before they get the foal they want.


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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    I have no problem with people buying a purebred dog as a pet for a lot of money, if the breeder is a decent, responsible breeder who competes with the dogs in some way, has them registered, has limited breedings, is deeply invested in the breed's health and future, etc., etc. If you want a particular breed and it's uncommon in shelters, or want the security of a dog from someone who is somewhat willing to stand behind their puppies, go for it.
    I bet most people don't realize that what they pay at a pet store is nearly(or equal) to what you might pay from a really good breeder for the same breed. I think many buyers have no idea. I have heard/seen of people paying between $500-$1000 for "pet store" quality purebreds - and if they are rare breeds, of course this is not enough. But for breeds that are not uncommon, that is absolutely enough to buy a puppy from excellent breeding with health checks and guarantees. I can tell you that my dog (now 3) with outstanding care and pedigree, five generations of AKC Champions with health checks (and some serious show brags) fell into that price range.

    If you meet with breeders and talk to them - you might find that you can afford a well-bred purebred, as opposed to a puppy mill product for the same money.


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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    Last first - I certainly hope some breeds go extinct. It's harsh, but so is the alternative which we're now living with - vast numbers of dogs being created with nowhere to go because they make suitable pets for very few people. I'm talking, of course, of the pit bulls. I'd be happy if they were changed to eliminate dog-aggression, but I can't see how that'll happen. The people creating them are doing it for that trait, for money, and aren't about to quit just because it's destructive and monstrous to mass produce puppies for a death sport and shrug the excess off without a viable future. Some of the most deformed breeds also need to be extinct or modified so they can breathe/whelp/live past 6/etc.

    I have no problem with people buying a purebred dog as a pet for a lot of money, if the breeder is a decent, responsible breeder who competes with the dogs in some way, has them registered, has limited breedings, is deeply invested in the breed's health and future, etc., etc. If you want a particular breed and it's uncommon in shelters, or want the security of a dog from someone who is somewhat willing to stand behind their puppies, go for it. I have less patience with the people who want a competition dog and feel that only a purebred or a specialized crossbred is going to take them ALL THE WAY in - er, flyball. Seriously? That's not a good enough reason, for me. Wanting to cover all your bases because you want to have a safe family dog, or wanting a particular breed because you've lost your heart to one - I get that, that's part emotion, part responsible rationality. But the sport argument is just - not real compelling.
    By what you say there, I may assume you have never trained a dog for competition and really been out there competing.

    No matter where you get your dog, if you are competing with it, it better be a dog that can do what you are asking it to do and what better way to assure that is so than buying it from someone that has been breeding just for that and has the dogs out there to prove it?

    It would be foolish, if you are going to train and compete, to get any one dog from a shelter and hope it works, or worse, make the dog miserable trying to make it do what it can't.

    Now, if all you want is a foot/lap warmer, well, many dogs from any source can sure do that.


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  5. #85
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    Around here the average price for a pet store puppy is $1100. Some as low as $800 and they go up to $2500 but not many are that high.



    Same breeds from well respected breeders around here average 20-25% LESS than the pet stores.

    Pet stores rely on 2 things:
    *Impulse buy...you see it right in front of you and whether you were looking for a dog or not, it's a PUPPY!
    *financing...people will finance anything. In malls the 2 biggest ticket finance options are jewelry and dogs.

    I've been known to murmur to store window puppy-gazers: Get her a tennis bracelet instead. They don't pee, poop or lose value.

    Half the time...there's a lot more eye-sparkling once diamonds are mentioned as a same-priced option.
    You jump in the saddle,
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  6. #86
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    The problem (well, one of them, at least) is, most people think folks who sell puppies places like Next Day Pets are good, responsible breeders. Most people who want a puppy want it NOW and aren't willing to wait for a responsible breeder's wait list.



  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    Seriously. Think about Susan Garrett. She wants a purebred comp dog and she wants a high drive dog that will compete at international levels. Honestly, how different is this than those who want a sport horse to compete with? Even tho breeders only have one foal per year, they might breed 8 or more times before they get the foal they want.
    And most people want a sweet, kind dog who won't bite a kid the first 5 million times the kid tugs on her fur, won't have a fatal heart attack at the age of 5, and won't kill the neighbor's kitten. There's not enough difference between a dog sport competitor seeking to produce an elite performance dog and inevitably producing a ton of high-maintenance, high-drive puppies who aren't quite up to snuff but can't live easily in a typical home, and the people out there churning out droves of pit bulls. There's a difference, don't get me wrong - producing a dog to kill and be killed is different from and worse than producing one to chase sheep or run flyball. But the attitude is too similar - my goals, my drive, my dogs, my choice. The pit bull breeders are obviously the major problem. I don't think the dog sport people are making a huge dent in the shelter population with hyper "border jacks" or whatever nuttiness they're onto now. But there's a disregard for the big picture in what both groups do with their dogs.


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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    I have less patience with the people who want a competition dog and feel that only a purebred or a specialized crossbred is going to take them ALL THE WAY in - er, flyball. Seriously? That's not a good enough reason, for me. Wanting to cover all your bases because you want to have a safe family dog, or wanting a particular breed because you've lost your heart to one - I get that, that's part emotion, part responsible rationality. But the sport argument is just - not real compelling.
    Have you ever been to an AKC agility trial??? Mixed breeds are allowed. But, the overwhelming majority (at least in my area) are purebred and rarely ILP dogs. Like most of my fellow competitors I trial with a dog purpose bred for performance. Her granddaughter is my up and coming. My current one has a daughter who is qualified for the 2014 nationals. That owner waited 18 months for a second Iris daughter.

    My mentor and I have had a mix of temperament in our litters. Some puppies who belong in performance home, some who just want to be pets, and some who are good at both. I liken agility to dressage, most dogs can have fun and get some benefit out of it. But if you really want to compete, then your best bet is to stack the deck in your favor.

    If wanting to compete in dressage is a good enough reason to go out and buy a warmblood, then why is wanting to compete in dog sports not a good enough reason for a purebred dog?


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  9. #89
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    I have had dogs from all backgrounds. I don't fault someone buying a truly well bred dog, no matter what the reason. Maybe my standards are too high, but IMO, reputable breeders are really hard to find. What most people think is a reputable breeder is usually a backyard breeder with a fancy website and good sales pitch.


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  10. #90
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    So responsible breeders of purebred dogs should 'quit' because there are so many random-bred, animals being dumped at shelters or on the street?

    People who actually care about socializing, worming, vaccinating, temperament and health testing and training their dogs and trying to match prospective owners needs should hold off breeding because unsocialized, untrained, impulse buy dogs are being abandoned?

    Stopping one has NO effect on the other. NONE.

    Just limits the number of truly traceable dogs with reasonably expected behavior and health parameters.

    I've gotten 4 dogs from breeders and 2 from 'the pound' or 'rescue' situations. The amount of baggage from the rescues was definitely at a higher level than the breeder's dogs.

    I think it is solely up to the purchaser which route they go, but I have seen regrets from some 'adopters' once the rescue warm fuzzies wears off.

    I happen to like giving dogs homes, but I want more than generic dog, so now I am looking at another purebred with a reputable breeder... I've been researching for over a year and am now on a waiting list - but not for a puppy. And it may be another year before what I want becomes available.



  11. #91
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    I think I do see where you are coming from Vacation1. People intentionally producing "sport mixes" are really not any different than those who breed "designer breeds." Yes, the average sport mix dog will end up in a home with a much more experienced owner but life happens regardless of your financial security or intent. A designer bred goldendoodle might be wrought with health issues but in terms of temperament an affable goldendoodle is much more desirable than a cracked out borderjack in a shelter situation.

    Breeding high drive crosses like border-jacks and boarder-whippets creates incredible intense and athletic dogs. In the right hands they are stellar athletes but if they end up with a good intentioned novice, that drive can manifest itself in unhealthy ways very quickly. We have so many athletic breeds that I really don't see why we need to create a niche market for fly ball or agility.



  12. #92
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    S1969-exactly right. The $1,500 pet store dog is a puppy mill animal, or a cull from a local amateur breeder (for profit, not a responsible one). Where I used to live there was a local pet store that not only sold puppies, but bred their own at a disgusting car junkyard turned dog kennel (my understanding was that the cars were still around, but the dogs fended for themselves, and breeding was anything to anything), where the dogs were listed at the store as whatever breed they looked like (basset / beagle crosses listed as one breed or the other was common), or they would buy the puppies from mass breeders (puppy mills) for less than 10% of the price they resold for, with AKC papers because they did faked breeding registrations. The pet stores were horrible, and the animals were usually either defective, or simply had fried brains from being in the cages at their various pet store locations for endless amounts of time until they were sold. Nothing was ever done about the pet store because they were politically and financially connected in the community, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were still in business today. People just don't realize what buying a pet store animal means to the animal and the puppy mill industry.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  13. #93
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    Several times in this thread I've seen this statement or something similar:

    "for profit, not a responsible one"

    as if losing money on breeding is what makes a breeder responsible.

    Most careful breeders do not make a living from breeding dogs but they certainly do (or should) get part of their investment back, eventually.



  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    Several times in this thread I've seen this statement or something similar:

    "for profit, not a responsible one"

    as if losing money on breeding is what makes a breeder responsible.

    Most careful breeders do not make a living from breeding dogs but they certainly do (or should) get part of their investment back, eventually.
    If they are lucky, yes, they might. But maybe not, and maybe not always. I guess that's the point - you just don't really know until the puppies are born and sold whether it will be profitable. My dog's breeder's last litter was only 4 puppies, and an emergency c-section was needed for the last 2 puppies. It was unusual for such a small litter so they assumed they must have had a problem with timing the mating, but who knows.

    They "broke even" on the breeding -- meaning vet visits specifically for the purpose of that litter were covered by the cost of puppies sold. BUT, the cost of showing the bitch to a championship, field training and field trials, OFA and other health checks that were not done "specifically for *this* breeding"....no, they were not covered.

    Still, as a breeder, she considered it a success. Because this is her *hobby* -- not something we generally expect to make money from (e.g. that Cushings pony in my barn right now)....hobby, not business.

    If a person breeds "for the purpose of making money"...I would run the other way.



  15. #95
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    I realize the thread has gone off on some interesting tangents, but to revisit the OP....

    How do you feel about people who spend thousands of dollars on purebred dogs when there are shelter dogs being euthanized daily purely due to lack of space?

    I feel fine about it. I have both a purebred dog from a breeder, and a mutt dog and cat from a shelter. Now that I am personally full up on four legged friends due to space/lifestyle, I participate in animal rescue in ways other than providing a home (donations, volunteering, transport, etc.) Buying a purebred dog doesn't make you a bad person. I think it's completely possible to both own a purebred dog and participate in/support rescue. In our breed, many of the most ardent supporters of breed rescue are also breeders. I don't know why people seem to think that buying a purebred dog means you don't support animal rescue.

    I love it when people try to make us feel bad for buying a purebred dog. I am happy to provide a laundry list of reasons why we chose to buy a dog, and I don't regret that choice at all. I am anxiously awaiting the day when we can add another purebred Airedale to the family.

    Do you put value on the maintenance of breeds?

    Personally, yes, I do. I find the history of our breed to be fascinating and I look for anything I can find to learn more. My Nook is full of Airedale books - there aren't many, but I've read all the ones I can find. Our dog is the joy and delight of our home and I can't imagine a world without her or other Airedales in it. I love talking about Airedales (as I'm sure those on this board have noticed), learning about Airedales, hanging out with Airedales, going to conformation shows to see Airedales, going to any other dog events to see Airedales... etc. If we are ever in a position to devote the proper time and resources to it, I'd LOVE to be involved with showing/breeding these dogs. I realize I am beginning to sound like a crazy person but yes, I really think the world needs Airedales.

    Do you think we will ever see certain breeds go "extinct?"

    I'm sure we will and already have. It's definitely something I think about as an owner of a relatively 'rare' breed. (They're not really truly rare - but they are few and far between compared to many breeds!)


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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1969 View Post
    If they are lucky, yes, they might. But maybe not, and maybe not always.
    this is far more like it really happens. You don't know. But to say that a responsible breeder does not make a profit....that's not a good ruler to judge the breeder by.


    Still, as a breeder, she considered it a success. Because this is her *hobby* -- not something we generally expect to make money from (e.g. that Cushings pony in my barn right now)....hobby, not business.
    success is not always about how much money you make, you are correct there.

    If a person breeds "for the purpose of making money"...I would run the other way.
    probably.



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