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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by saje View Post
    So cutting 1/2 the toe off is ok? In my mind, dismembering is not too strong a word for declawing.
    A thesaurus is a poor argument. Dismemberment is used to mean cutting off body parts either after death or in a manner leading to death. It's not a synonym for amputation. It's similar, but not the same. Cheers to the inane idea that it's okay to cut half a toe off. Yes, obviously that's what I meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    I'm not sure why you see cutting a phalanx off as an amputation and tearing it off as dismemberment. They're 2 different words for the same process and end result. And, if it makes you feel any better about the term "dismemberment", many, many veterinarians hack the last phalanx off with a regular pair of guillotine nail clippers. No dissecting, no finding the joint space, no concern with anatomy at all. Just "CRUNCH" and done. Regardless how the bone is removed/dismembered/amputated, the wound is then superglued shut and after all 5 toes have been snipped and glued, the foot is tightly bandaged in gauze cling and tape, usually for up to three days. It's a horribly bloody procedure, so it's done with a tourniquet in place. The tourniquet isn't removed until after the foot is taped. Cats are invariably miserable when waking up and then recovering from this "surgery". I use quotes because it's not even a sterile procedure.
    You know, now it strikes me as strange that anyone would even discriminate between the words "amputaion" and "dismemberment". Is one somehow preferable over the other? I'd like to avoid both, TYVM.
    Calling declawing "dismemberment" is like calling, say, abortion a ritual murder. You can, if you squint hard, make a case that there is a similarity, but the reality is the two situations are extremely different. I can't speak to the declawing procedure, but suspect that using nail clippers to snip off a joint is not accepted veterinary practice.

    Why is it ridiculous of me to differentiate between the two words, but at the same time very important for you to defend the use of the one word? Clearly, the word "dismember" has some added value you're unwilling to give up. Possibly because it's a more shocking concept - tearing apart a body versus a surgery. I bet if you had to choose, you'd rather have a limb amputated in a hospital, not torn off in a field and hope you can just wrap a scarf around the stump to avoid bleeding to death.



  2. #82
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    Jun. 7, 2002
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    Virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    A thesaurus is a poor argument. Dismemberment is used to mean cutting off body parts either after death or in a manner leading to death. It's not a synonym for amputation. It's similar, but not the same. Cheers to the inane idea that it's okay to cut half a toe off. Yes, obviously that's what I meant.



    Calling declawing "dismemberment" is like calling, say, abortion a ritual murder. You can, if you squint hard, make a case that there is a similarity, but the reality is the two situations are extremely different. I can't speak to the declawing procedure, but suspect that using nail clippers to snip off a joint is not accepted veterinary practice.

    Why is it ridiculous of me to differentiate between the two words, but at the same time very important for you to defend the use of the one word? Clearly, the word "dismember" has some added value you're unwilling to give up. Possibly because it's a more shocking concept - tearing apart a body versus a surgery. I bet if you had to choose, you'd rather have a limb amputated in a hospital, not torn off in a field and hope you can just wrap a scarf around the stump to avoid bleeding to death.

    From The Free Dictionary:
    dis·mem·ber(dhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifs-mhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ebreve.gifmhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifbhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifr)tr.v. dis·mem·bered, dis·mem·ber·ing, dis·mem·bers1. To cut, tear, or pull off the limbs of.
    2. To divide into pieces.


    So, based on that, a declaw procedure is, indeed, a dismemberment. I do know of what I speak. Regardless what you suspect, using nail clippers to snip off the phalanx is absolutely accepted veterinary practice and I personally know and have worked for very capable veterinarians who do it that way. I don't know how you imagine it being carried out, but I do know the reality.
    I don't believe I defended the use of one word. I said that both suffice. They are essentially synonymous. You are the one who prefers amputation to dismemberment. Yes, amputation can imply intent and dismemberment may be inflicted unwillingly, but if you look at it from the point of view of the cat, it was most certainly NOT his or her intention to be liberated from his or her tippy toes. So, I'll say again, I have no preference for either word. Both serve equally well.
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    To call declawing "dismemberment" is ridiculously hyperbolic. It's an amputation. I'm aware it's been discredited as a simple or humane act, but it's still not dismemberment. If you tore the cat's toe off, that would be dismemberment.
    So if someone cut off all of your fingers at the first knuckle, you wouldn't call that a dismemberment because it wasn't the whole finger? That's what declawing is-amputating the toe to the first joint. It's not just the claw..



  4. #84
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    Aug. 22, 2001
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    Almost Aiken
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    I'd say that unnecessary amputation is tantamount to dismemberment.

    I have a newly tripod dog here. She just had her front leg amputated at the shoulder because some asshat put an illegal leghold trap out, and she found it. Her paw was severed 3/4 of the way through - there was no saving it. That was a necessary amputation, the whole leg was turning septic.

    Amputating toes off an uninjured and healthy cat is not a necessary procedure. It is barbaric, as is dismemberment.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  5. #85
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    Sorry Lauruffian, we've hijacked your thread discussing something I don't believe you ever intended to do.

    How's it going, is there a truce yet?



  6. #86
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    Jan. 6, 2009
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    I just wanted to share my experience. I grew up with a cat very similar to yours. Cinder could be purring and allowing pets and then BOOM she would hiss and bite me and run off. We did have another cat who was very sweet, but still not super cuddly( though would never hiss, bite or scratch us). I to this day will tolerate cats, but do not like them. I am always waiting for that bite or scratch. I know they are not "evil" or truly that unpredictable but I guess from my early experience with them that is the feeling I have (never feel or felt that way about dogs). Love dogs and am never wary of them like with cats. I will say that I did learn to leave that cat alone though, I knew not to go crying to mom if I got bit because we knew to leave the cat alone and it was our fault if we got hurt while trying to force our attention on the cat.


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  7. #87
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    Oct. 6, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaddleUp158 View Post
    I just wanted to share my experience. I grew up with a cat very similar to yours. Cinder could be purring and allowing pets and then BOOM she would hiss and bite me and run off. We did have another cat who was very sweet, but still not super cuddly( though would never hiss, bite or scratch us). I to this day will tolerate cats, but do not like them. I am always waiting for that bite or scratch. I know they are not "evil" or truly that unpredictable but I guess from my early experience with them that is the feeling I have (never feel or felt that way about dogs). Love dogs and am never wary of them like with cats. I will say that I did learn to leave that cat alone though, I knew not to go crying to mom if I got bit because we knew to leave the cat alone and it was our fault if we got hurt while trying to force our attention on the cat.
    As an opposite anecdote, I was attacked as a child playing in the backyard by a friend's cocker spaniel. I have no fear of dogs. I like dogs fine.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
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  8. #88
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    Oct. 22, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaddleUp158 View Post
    I just wanted to share my experience. I grew up with a cat very similar to yours. Cinder could be purring and allowing pets and then BOOM she would hiss and bite me and run off. We did have another cat who was very sweet, but still not super cuddly( though would never hiss, bite or scratch us). I to this day will tolerate cats, but do not like them. I am always waiting for that bite or scratch. I know they are not "evil" or truly that unpredictable but I guess from my early experience with them that is the feeling I have (never feel or felt that way about dogs). Love dogs and am never wary of them like with cats. I will say that I did learn to leave that cat alone though, I knew not to go crying to mom if I got bit because we knew to leave the cat alone and it was our fault if we got hurt while trying to force our attention on the cat.
    Some people are cat people and others aren't. I wouldn't necessarily say it has much to do with your child hood pets. My sister, brother and I grew up with the same pets, some super sweet and some bite-your-face-off unpredictable ones. My sister in't a huge fan of cats (except her own not-really-a-cat cat), my brother is alright with them. I absolutely adore cats, no matter how quirky. I've become quite adept at knowing where and when and how to pat even a strange cat, but I still get nailed occasionally. It's usually my fault for not patting the cat in the way it prefers. Cats scratch and bite, some a lot, some hardly ever. They're not dogs, it's just something you have to accept.

    I've also been bitten in the face by a dog and I'm not at ALL scared of dogs (It totally wasn't the dogs fault, I blame the owner). I know others who are terrified of dogs, even though they've had zero bad experiences.
    Quote Originally Posted by pinecone View Post
    I can't decide if I should saddle up the drama llama, dust off the clue bat, or get out my soapbox.



  9. #89
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    it is an excellent lesson for your kids (really anyone) to learn that not all animals should be touched
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”


    3 members found this post helpful.

  10. #90
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    Oct. 22, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGray View Post
    it is an excellent lesson for your kids (really anyone) to learn that not all animals should be touched
    I agree. I think there are a couple of ways to approach this, OP, with relation to your kids.

    1) Rehome the cat if possible. Explain to your children that while you loved kitty, she wasn't happy and she will be happy in her new home.

    2) Keep kitty. Explain to your children that kitty is very old, and sometimes old people/cats/dogs/whatever act in ways that aren't predictable or are even hurtful we don't just get rid of them. They shouldn't touch kitty because she doesn't really like it all that much. She's an old lady and they need to respect that.

    I think either way of approaching it is perfectly legitimate. Either lesson teaches that love and "the right thing" is not always easy. I think #1 has the potential to be make it seem like you "got rid of her", so I'd just be careful about handling it so that kiddos understand you did what you did out of LOVE, not because the cat was "bad" (cat was just old and a little strange)

    The behavior of pet-pet-SWAT is pretty common. Since you have little kids I'd suggest your next cat being an adult and you really vet that they don't have the pet-pet-swat. We have 1 cat that is pet-pet-swat (BIG time), another who backs off but will swat if you don't respect it, and another one that will let you pet her alllllllll day.
    "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91
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    Dec. 16, 2007
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    I haven't read every post, so if this has been suggested, I apologize for the redundancy. At 13 years old, it could be conceivable that kitty is in some sort of pain and tolerates petting as long as she can before swatting. Many times children aren't exactly gentle with their pats.

    Since it seems like she's gotten worse since the original poster lost her other cat, it may be possible that age is a factor here.

    Personally, unless the cat showed unprovoked aggression, I would live with it. But I don't have kids, so that's easy for me to say...



  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    From The Free Dictionary:
    dis·mem·ber(dhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifs-mhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ebreve.gifmhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifbhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifr)tr.v. dis·mem·bered, dis·mem·ber·ing, dis·mem·bers1. To cut, tear, or pull off the limbs of.
    2. To divide into pieces.


    So, based on that, a declaw procedure is, indeed, a dismemberment. I do know of what I speak. Regardless what you suspect, using nail clippers to snip off the phalanx is absolutely accepted veterinary practice and I personally know and have worked for very capable veterinarians who do it that way. I don't know how you imagine it being carried out, but I do know the reality.
    I don't believe I defended the use of one word. I said that both suffice. They are essentially synonymous. You are the one who prefers amputation to dismemberment. Yes, amputation can imply intent and dismemberment may be inflicted unwillingly, but if you look at it from the point of view of the cat, it was most certainly NOT his or her intention to be liberated from his or her tippy toes. So, I'll say again, I have no preference for either word. Both serve equally well.
    Your reference material is not growing more impressive. You can argue till your own finger joints amputate themselves in a spontaneous act of self-mutilation, but you're still going to be wrong. And still going to be arguing that if any given googleable source supports your completely wrong claim, you're right, so go ahead and use "dismember" to mean "amputate." Maybe next you can use "rape" to mean "slap" because both are violent acts that violate another's personal space.



  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryisBlaisin' View Post
    So if someone cut off all of your fingers at the first knuckle, you wouldn't call that a dismemberment because it wasn't the whole finger? That's what declawing is-amputating the toe to the first joint. It's not just the claw..
    I don't care if it's the claw, the first joint or the whole paw, it's not dismemberment. We're not arguing about the morality of declawing; we're talking about a word and its meaning. Just because declawing is not dismemberment doesn't mean it's good. It's very common for people to use a combination of hyperbole and illiteracy to make a spectacular statement. Fine, I like hyperbole myself. But don't try to defend it to the death by pretending that red and pink are the same thing because they're similar.

    Oh, and because yeah, this did become a bit of a dewclaw/illiteracy hijack sorry to OP. Hope your cat situation resolves well for cat, kid and owners.



  14. #94
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    Dec. 30, 2003
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    I don't feel that at the age of 3 many kids have the manual dexterity needed to comfortably (for the cat) handle a cat.

    I don't feel pets should have to submit without complaint to being handled poorly just because a child wishes to. That is not fair to the animal. Also not fair to the child if they get bit/scratched because you have not taught them to respect animals. If they are too young to learn this lesson, then they just should not have the opportunity to handle those pets, no?

    I fully admit this may not be convenient or easy to do in real life, but with effort could be done most of the time. And most kids (I did) manage to survive to adulthood after being scratched by a cat.

    Meant to add - your older DS is 7 correct? And he is the one you are having feed cat? I think this is a really good step towards your cat having a positive association with your kids. Younger DS at 3 - perhaps not yet.
    Last edited by Alice; Feb. 25, 2013 at 05:22 PM.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #95
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    Dec. 4, 2010
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    I have a cat very much like yours. She was dumped as a kitten and very ill, and once she got healthy, she got NASTY! I was living with 4 housemates at the time (in college) and she would tolerate very limited petting, but never being held, and God forbid you touch her when she didn't want to be touched (or pet her too long)- she would lash out, hissing and clawing at your face. This cat aimed for eyes! It went far beyond the usual kitten play-biting and scratching. When I graduated, I moved home for a couple of months and then got a job with pet-free housing, so she stayed with my parents for a year or so. Her behavior was very similar with them- would only tolerate being carried before breakfast, attacked them as they walked past her, dad was always covered in scratches, etc. She bullied our elderly family dog and would take out her aggression by hitting her whenever she was annoyed (such as when she would get kicked off the countertop). I am finally in housing where I can keep her, and since she moved in here, she has been a different animal. It is just the two of us and she has been lovely- no scratching, no hissing, no attacking, not even an aggressive look. She always wants to sit in my lap (previously never a lap cat) and she purrs all the time (never purred audibly before, now she sounds like a motorboat!). I don't know if it's the smaller space, fewer people being around or the lack of other animals, but she has turned from a monster that I had to warn guests about to a lovely social cat. I never would have thought it possible.

    The point of my story is, it sounds like your cat needs a lifestyle adjustment. I was going to suggest finding her her own special area of the house where she can have some solitude, but it soulds like you have already done so. Some people have suggested Feliway, which is useful, as is Bach's REscue Remedy (in her drinking water) to help reduce stress. Kids also need to know that even though they love cats, she has her own feelings that need to be respected too. Explain that just like they feel upset when she scratches them, she feels upset when they touch her too much. If she feels smothered, her tendency towards aggression will only escalate. Finally, if these efforts fail, I don't think a careful, thoughtful rehoming would be the worst thing. If you are considering euth'ing, why not give her a chance at an environment where she would be happier? She might just need a quiet, more solitary life, which you can't provide for her with young children. Try to avoid feeling hostile towards her on behalf of your children; she is trying to communicate with you in the only way she can. Best of luck to your family.



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