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  1. #121
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    Aug. 25, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisterToSoreFoot View Post
    Whatever. Asking people to reflect on their choices is part of understanding them. I wouldn't walk up to a stranger and ask, but if that person was going on about it on a public forum where the topic was being discussed, i.e.COTH, I would ask, and did.

    Maybe I "needed" to ask the question.
    You can ask any question you want. You don't get to dictate the answer. Nor do you get to become upset with that answer. Also you don't get to be upset if the person you question thinks you are being intrusive and says so.

    So suck it up and move on down the road.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Jan. 22, 2003
    Location
    Home of "The Office", PA
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    930

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    A helmet was certainly good enough for the Olympic Gold Medalist. I don't think Charlotte felt any less accomplished in the arena without a top hat.
    The only thing the government needs to solve all of its problems is a Council of Common Sense.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2008
    Location
    Central Oklahoma
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    3,055

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    I don't think nay-sayers are saying they "must" have top hats, or even whether a top hat will help their performance in anyway. There is no doubt helmets are safer than top hats. There is no doubt that head trauma sucks big time, and have huge negative impact on the families.

    What they are saying is, it is nobody's business how they should live their lives.

    And that is a very valid argument. We all know hamburgers are bad for your health, but nobody has a right to tell another person whether they are allowed to eat hamburgers.

    Unfortunately, in this country, people are losing controls of their own lives because the push from certain very loud sector of the society (not necessarily equestrian society; this is a general phenomena of the society) is very strong.

    They first say "it's everybody else's fault".

    They then say, "Since it's not your fault, somebody else, somebody richer, should take care of you."

    They then say, "Somebody else, somebody richer, MUST take care of you."

    Then they say, "If that somebody else, somebody richer, refuses to take care of you, we as government will make them."

    And then when you are addicted to the aids like a trust fund kid living off bloody milk, they tell you, "I as your protector and god, am going to tell you how to live."

    While at the same time, we, as everybody "else," in order to protect ourselves from having to take care of everybody else, MUST make other people behave as we want them to behave.

    I don't have a solution - just sadness.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 2005
    Location
    Strasburg, PA "Just west of Paradise"
    Posts
    3,969

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    You can ask any question you want. You don't get to dictate the answer. Nor do you get to become upset with that answer. Also you don't get to be upset if the person you question thinks you are being intrusive and says so.

    So suck it up and move on down the road.

    G.
    Move it down the road on COTH... now that's funny!


    Some people seem to WANT TO KNOW how everbody feels about something. The get upset when you don't agree with them.

    Wearing a helmet s a personal choice issue. If you own the space where they are riding then you can try and dictate what they must do.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #125
    Join Date
    May. 20, 2005
    Location
    Desert Southwest
    Posts
    6,258

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    Gloria, I love your post #123. Thank you!



  6. #126
    Join Date
    Jun. 1, 2002
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    11,026

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    Do you want to end up like Courtney who can hardly take care of herself let alone ride a horse in the Olympics? You insist on making a fashion choice out of stubborness but fail to see that it doesn't just involve you, it involves your family. Your husband, your children, your relatives. The people who will take care of you if you sustain an injury like Courtney.

    If you don't have family then someone in a hospital will take care of you. Maybe for the rest of your life. Is it that important to not wear a simple helmet?

    Wear or don't wear one at home. For whatever reasons you can make up. But don't expect to go to a horse show and not wear one.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  7. #127
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2008
    Posts
    466

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post

    What they are saying is, it is nobody's business how they should live their lives.
    s.
    It's other people's business when a personal choice affects other's lives. We live in a community and therefore our business overlaps with other people's. We have laws because some people hurt others--by stealing, selling drugs, assault, etc. You can't say it's "nobody's business" if someone is doing something that negatively effects others.

    The crux of the argument is "does someone NOT wearing a helmet negatively effect other people? If so, is it enough to take away that person's freedom to choose?"
    2007 Welsh Cob C X TB GG Eragon
    Our training journal.
    1989-2008 French TB Shamus Fancy
    I owned him for fifteen years, but he was his own horse.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Dec. 23, 2010
    Location
    Lancashire UK, formerly Region 8
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    662

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    Quote Originally Posted by SisterToSoreFoot View Post
    The crux of the argument is "does someone else NOT wearing a helmet negatively affect others?"
    Precisely! Which is why I asked for an example of a head injury sustained during an FEI-level test. Anyone?? (The issue up for debate is the requirement for helmets in FEI-level classes).
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    10,323

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    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post
    Do you want to end up like Courtney who can hardly take care of herself let alone ride a horse in the Olympics? You insist on making a fashion choice out of stubborness but fail to see that it doesn't just involve you, it involves your family. Your husband, your children, your relatives. The people who will take care of you if you sustain an injury like Courtney.

    If you don't have family then someone in a hospital will take care of you. Maybe for the rest of your life. Is it that important to not wear a simple helmet?

    Wear or don't wear one at home. For whatever reasons you can make up. But don't expect to go to a horse show and not wear one.
    If it's not YOU and YOUR family, it's none of your business. Who cares if someone else does or doesn't care what might happen to wives and children? Mind your own house. It doesn't raise YOUR insurance premiums, you are not the one tending that person, their head and their family is THEIR problem, not yours. They aren't yanking the helmet off your head.

    Now, in the case of USEF/FEI--they're an organization sanctioning shows. Those bereaved family members would sue them and those shows and trainers and probably the guy who raked the ring, so they're entitled to cover their butts. They don't care about you or your family's suffering, nor should they, but they DO care that you could take them to court for not making you wear a helmet when failure to do so results in your smacking your head.

    The rider still has a choice: go to those events or don't. I don't show, I haven't ridden dressage since my old horse died, but if I chose to go to rated/sanctioned shows, I'd wear the stupid helmet because that's the rule and a condition of participation. If I don't want to follow the rules, I don't have to show. They're not obligated to provide every single person who wants to show with the venue to do so using whatever criteria they want.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2008
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    Central Oklahoma
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    3,055

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    Quote Originally Posted by SisterToSoreFoot View Post
    It's other people's business when a personal choice affects other's lives. We live in a community and therefore our business overlaps with other people's. We have laws because some people hurt others--by stealing, selling drugs, assault, etc. You can't say it's "nobody's business" if someone is doing something that negatively effects others.

    The crux of the argument is "does someone NOT wearing a helmet negatively effect other people? If so, is it enough to take away that person's freedom to choose?"
    Understand. Remember I'm a helmet proponent, not opponent. However, we do need to be very careful at which point we draw the line. If I had a magic wand, I would change the society mentality of everybody has to take care of everybody else, and then everybody is allowed to make decision for themselves, and that means, everybody has to learn to take care of themselves.

    Freedom and liberty is not for the faint of heart.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #131
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2007
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    1,704

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    What they are saying is, it is nobody's business how they should live their lives.

    And that is a very valid argument. We all know hamburgers are bad for your health, but nobody has a right to tell another person whether they are allowed to eat hamburgers.

    .
    NYC has the right to not allow tran fat
    Require calorie counts to be listed on the menu
    ban smoking
    And about to be the law, limit the size of soda drinks

    It seems the mayor thinks he has the right and the courts have backed him up



  12. #132
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    Oct. 16, 2008
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    Central Oklahoma
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    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    NYC has the right to not allow tran fat
    Hence, what I said about the mentality of "everybody else MUST take care of ME."

    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    Require calorie counts to be listed on the menu
    Require calorie count does not ban you from eatting it. It is provided for valuable information.

    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    ban smoking
    Ban smoking in public space: to protect other people, because a smoker can negatively affect all innocent bystanders.
    Ban smoking anywhere: again: the mentality of "everybody else MUST take care of ME."

    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    And about to be the law, limit the size of soda drinks
    Again, the mentality of "everybody else MUST take care of ME." not to mention proving once again how trivial our law makers are. If they have to concern themselves with something as to the size of cups, no wonder they can't get their asses to do anything else that is important.

    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    It seems the mayor thinks he has the right and the courts have backed him up
    Yeah, no kidding, idiot.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #133
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2005
    Posts
    2,596

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    The rider still has a choice: go to those events or don't.
    THIS.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  14. #134
    Join Date
    Dec. 10, 2012
    Posts
    689

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    If it's not YOU and YOUR family, it's none of your business. Who cares if someone else does or doesn't care what might happen to wives and children? Mind your own house. It doesn't raise YOUR insurance premiums, you are not the one tending that person, their head and their family is THEIR problem, not yours.
    Libertarians understand this intuitively. Socialists never will.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #135
    Join Date
    May. 6, 2007
    Location
    Napanee ON
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    3,933

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    Well I have seen a few bad falls in the warm up ring....some requiring air ambulance.

    If you don't want to wear a helmet, then don't wear one. Does it kill you or really cause any issue at all to put one for a show?? No. You don't wear your show jacket at home and seem to put that on fine with no qualms. Add a helmet to your show gear.

    Continue to ride sans helmet thinking about how cool you look at home.

    Strap one on at shows and get over it.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  16. #136
    Join Date
    Dec. 23, 2010
    Location
    Lancashire UK, formerly Region 8
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    662

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    It's rather a stretch to assume that everyone who wishes to retain the option of top hats in FEI classes must not wear helmets when schooling. For an increasing number of advanced riders, FEI classes are the only time helmets are not worn. So the debate should be about that alone, but focus is never a strong point of internet BBs.
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  17. #137
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2005
    Location
    Spotsylvania, VA
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    12,811

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    Quote Originally Posted by SisterToSoreFoot View Post
    It's other people's business when a personal choice affects other's lives. We live in a community and therefore our business overlaps with other people's. We have laws because some people hurt others--by stealing, selling drugs, assault, etc. You can't say it's "nobody's business" if someone is doing something that negatively effects others.

    The crux of the argument is "does someone NOT wearing a helmet negatively effect other people? If so, is it enough to take away that person's freedom to choose?"
    As I said earlier I took sole care on my brain damaged mom from Dec 1982 to Oct 1996.

    It was hard on me and it was hard on my family. In many ways she was like a four year old who didn't talk very well.

    It wasn't her fault she had a brain tumor but i would have REALLY been pissed if she had ended up that way because she didn't want to wear a helmet and fell off a horse
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #138
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2010
    Posts
    2,413

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    Shows have rules. You MUST wear certain attire, your horse can only have certain bits, certain color saddle pads, boots/no boots depending on class, etc. etc. They are just making a rule that is applicable to you while you're at a SHOW.

    If you want to be stupid and go helmet-less at your own farm, on a trail, etc. on your own time, go for it--you're still perfectly free to do so. This whole, "They're taking away my RIGHTS!!!" nonsense is overly dramatic and untrue.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  19. #139
    Join Date
    Jan. 10, 2002
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    Area VIII, Region 2, Zone 5.
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    6,579

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    If it's not YOU and YOUR family, it's none of your business. Who cares if someone else does or doesn't care what might happen to wives and children? Mind your own house. It doesn't raise YOUR insurance premiums...
    That's where you're wrong. Every time an insurance company has to pay out a catastrophic claim, you'd better believe the rest of us pay higher premiums. It's called "spreading the risk."
    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    Those martingales were so taut, you could play Ode to Joy on them with a comb


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #140
    Join Date
    Oct. 25, 2012
    Posts
    3,948

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    I don't think nay-sayers are saying they "must" have top hats, or even whether a top hat will help their performance in anyway. There is no doubt helmets are safer than top hats. There is no doubt that head trauma sucks big time, and have huge negative impact on the families.

    What they are saying is, it is nobody's business how they should live their lives.

    And that is a very valid argument. We all know hamburgers are bad for your health, but nobody has a right to tell another person whether they are allowed to eat hamburgers.

    Unfortunately, in this country, people are losing controls of their own lives because the push from certain very loud sector of the society (not necessarily equestrian society; this is a general phenomena of the society) is very strong.

    They first say "it's everybody else's fault".

    They then say, "Since it's not your fault, somebody else, somebody richer, should take care of you."

    They then say, "Somebody else, somebody richer, MUST take care of you."

    Then they say, "If that somebody else, somebody richer, refuses to take care of you, we as government will make them."

    And then when you are addicted to the aids like a trust fund kid living off bloody milk, they tell you, "I as your protector and god, am going to tell you how to live."

    While at the same time, we, as everybody "else," in order to protect ourselves from having to take care of everybody else, MUST make other people behave as we want them to behave.

    I don't have a solution - just sadness.
    Want to know how far it goes? I was BALLISTIC this morning before I even got out of bed! Big report on NPR:

    Seems there's an obscure provision in the new health insurance law that says employers can provide "incentives" to their employees to "adopt healthier behaviors." This is already being interpreted by companies to mean, "dump the flab or we dump YOU!" Mandatory, off-the-clock attendance at "Wellness Seminars," gym memberships, food monitoring, all kinds of school-nurse BS is suddenly the paternalistic province of large companies, on YOUR time and on YOUR nickel, in the name of "saving on health-care costs." Major monetary penalties for non-participation, stigmatization in the corporate culture, and all of it functionally eliminates the whole point of supposedly not discriminating against pre-existing conditions. Not to mention the STRESS of having to be "company person" 24/7 or "you're in trouble." Corporate feudalism, much? Guess they ought to change "employee" to "retainer." As in, THEY OWN YOU.

    Apparently most of their employees are just ducky with this!

    Personally, I'm mighty glad I'm self-employed . . . I cannot IMAGINE living in a world where your employer, not you, decides how you live your private life. E. Gads!!!


    1 members found this post helpful.

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