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  1. #121
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    fwiw, i agree with ideayoda and mannio1.



  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post

    Elongating the outline (it is not really stretching per se) is only done properly if the horse carries with its entire top line (into a forward/down/out posture), a closed outline means the throatlatch posture is the same whether the horse is up or down, and if down/closed it is the underneck which is carrying its weight with the nuchal ligament in constant tension and the parotid glands are pushed out.
    I found your link really interesting, particularly the references to the lumbar spine - the point I was hoping to make. The lumbar:cervical relationship must be consistent.

    A question for you. Based on your link, as well as your input, do you think there is a purpose for "dressage" at all? I ask genuinely. The more I have considered it, the less a fan I have become. I actually think the more open frame alluded to (probably what is more consistent with our mental image of a hunter u/s) is a lot more natural to the horse.
    When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.



  3. #123
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    dressage done correctly builds a beautiful athlete. done badly it doesn't .

    dressage is basically physical therapy for horses - it turns any horse =into the best horse they can be - as long as it is done correctly.

    so, yes, it is relevant and needed. The problem is that it is very hard to find a competent trainer and it takes years to learn to train correctly and a lifetime to master it......
    Last edited by mbm; Feb. 18, 2013 at 10:45 AM.


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  4. #124
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    Agreed mbm. I have noted before that my dressage guru calls dressage physical therapy for horses under saddle.

    And our dressage training makes our horses that much more adjustable on XC. They can compress their stride while keeping impulsion and power in the hind end. Maybe back in the day it wasn't needed so much, but IIRC, Jack LeGoff's focus on dressage is part of what made the US an eventing powerhouse in his time.

    Has it become a parody of itself? Sometimes, unfortunately. But generally I think that thoughtful dressage is a force for good.
    Last edited by frugalannie; Feb. 18, 2013 at 09:16 AM. Reason: typo
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    Not at all purpl...... the purely flat riders do not have the amount of ammunition to change their horse's postures as easily...and they do not understand the implications of closing/holding a horse (to a fence) in the same way a jump rider does. (Yet what do I see before a dressage ride at an event: lower/rounder/lower/rounder...who would say that if they want to jump clean. Don't copy the flat riders (unless you want to do a rotational).
    I don't know about that.... One of the best flat riders in the world is also one of the best eventers in the world....

    Ingrid Klimke.... And her horses are usually leading after the dressage in eventing....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMuGueqs8F0

    and one of her Videos.... Sorry German again.... But really behind her Dressagepart is the same idea as in my first video..... But I think the Art is, to do the right thing at the right moment...
    When I read all your threads you seem to go for certain things... Like for you guys German school is riding forward (which of course it is...) but the secret (which makes it so tricky) is to do the right thing at the right time... Like this stretching.... If you let your horse stretch all the time you might loose the movement over the back.... A stretched horse which is not moving forward over the back is certainly not right....
    So you need to put it all together...... Then it will work whether for eventing or for dressage or even for jumping (we just took one of our young dressage horses to a very good jumping rider to get it started with jumps.... He is thrilled with this horse, because he loves the foundation....



  6. #126
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    This is a great discussion. Just throwing some more pics out there of the same ride as photo #3 in my 'series' I posted previously. In any ride I ride up down short long on the SAME soft contact.

    On a note to purp~ I'm not sure if working low-deep-round really helps Pie...it sends him on FH and encourages the curling/balling up that we've worked so hard to get away from & is locked in his memory. He still reverts to it whenever he gets tense or worried about something. He is finally reaching out to the bit and lengthening his neck from the base. I work with 2 different dressage trainers who both have had the same approach to him. He is naturally short strided in the trot and tight in his hq~ especially when these photos were taken a yr ago. I don't have any good recent pics unfortunately. He is finally starting to develop more swing, but he will never have a huge trot.

    stretch down
    http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...47981474_n.jpg

    more stretch
    http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...64796210_n.jpg

    long frame
    http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...17214437_n.jpg

    more 'up & open' frame
    http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...63878350_o.jpg
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  7. #127
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    Ok. Sorry about the offended post. Now that I understand Idea's point... I didn't read the entire blog and what I saw, well, I thought she was accusing some posters of something henious


    Now that I am no longer offended, Manni01, the videos that you have posted comport with my experience. Ingrid Klimke is fabulous btw. I have to say, on my end, I am not as theroretcial as many on this thread. I have read some of the ODG books, but going forward is the foundation of what I do with horses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

    But I think the Art is, to do the right thing at the right moment...
    When I read all your threads you seem to go for certain things... Like for you guys German school is riding forward (which of course it is...) but the secret (which makes it so tricky) is to do the right thing at the right time... Like this stretching.... If you let your horse stretch all the time you might loose the movement over the back.... A stretched horse which is not moving forward over the back is certainly not right....
    I agree with this very much. I also thought it was interesting, watching some of the young horses, - and BTW the first young horse in the Ingrid Klimke video is exactly what I was talking about, - how having higher set neck makes some of this much easier. I don't see many young, green, quality dressage horses in my world.



  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by frugalannie View Post
    Agreed mbm. I have noted before that my dressage guru calls dressage physical therapy for horses under saddle.

    And our dressage training makes our horses that much more adjustable on XC. They can compress their stride while keeping impulsion and power in the hind end. Maybe back in the day it wasn't needed so much, but IIRC, Jack LeGoff's focus on dressage is part of what made the US an eventing powerhouse in his time.

    Has it become a parody of itself? Sometimes, unfortunately. But generally I think that thoughtful dressage is a force for good.
    But see, this is where I have diverted. If there isn't a problem to begin with, how is it physical therapy? How is it physical therapy when the ongoing drilling/positioning leads to injury, even with the revered "master's" horses?

    I agree with ideayoda that round and deep isn't where you want to be on XC. Moving from behind with neck in a natural "up" position with throatlach open can be trained without ever stepping into a dressage ring.

    Like everything it has evolved/mutated, and is far from its original purpose. Several years ago the Chronicle did a great story comparing modern dressage to classical dressage, including current (at the time) conformation photographs of a grand prix horse from each "school." The classical horse showed a much more naturally developed, functional musculature. You could probably compare it to the difference between a CrossFit/functional fitness athlete (but not the cultish/joint pounding sort) and a hardcore body builder. Theoretically one is better conditioned for a barrage of challenges (and physically stronger), while the other is over-developed and sometimes incapable of bending down to tie their shoes.

    We ask our horses to put their bodies in positions they seldom assume at liberty and, oh yeah, hold it there for an hour. I can do a backbend, but if I did it repeatedly for an hour, I'm fairly certain I'd breaker sooner rather than later.
    When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.



  9. #129
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    I love the videos...but my horse is sooo not that fancy!! So it is hard for me to compare....this thread was about average moving horses developing a bigger trot.
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  10. #130
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    If i may be so bold to respond for Ideayoda -

    I believe she was saying that folks that jump and go XC (ie folks like Ingrid) have more tools and have a better understanding of those various tools than folks who only do flat work.

    Ingrid is the *perfect* example of good correct riding that utilizes various tools to accomplish the work.

    also fwiw, i think it is awesome that you are responding on this post - I love reading training info from the german perspective as it is what i am learning so i crave info !

    The way to a beautiful topline/neck carriage is thru the hind legs and appropriate school work...
    Quote Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
    I don't know about that.... One of the best flat riders in the world is also one of the best eventers in the world....

    Ingrid Klimke.... And her horses are usually leading after the dressage in eventing....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMuGueqs8F0

    and one of her Videos.... Sorry German again.... But really behind her Dressagepart is the same idea as in my first video..... But I think the Art is, to do the right thing at the right moment...
    When I read all your threads you seem to go for certain things... Like for you guys German school is riding forward (which of course it is...) but the secret (which makes it so tricky) is to do the right thing at the right time... Like this stretching.... If you let your horse stretch all the time you might loose the movement over the back.... A stretched horse which is not moving forward over the back is certainly not right....
    So you need to put it all together...... Then it will work whether for eventing or for dressage or even for jumping (we just took one of our young dressage horses to a very good jumping rider to get it started with jumps.... He is thrilled with this horse, because he loves the foundation....


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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by leahandpie View Post
    I love the videos...but my horse is sooo not that fancy!! So it is hard for me to compare....this thread was about average moving horses developing a bigger trot.
    I have the most average mover in the world - a 15h Connemara pony. I have done 99% the work myself while taking lessons from my trainer....and over the last year + he has changed so much! I am not ready yet to put vids up of him, but suffice to say he went from a non forward shuffly "pony" to a forward little powerhouse in the making.... his trot still needs work, but given the trot in the most malleable my trainer says not to worry. His canter is going to be really good ....

    I am getting to see a transformation right before my eyes. so that is why i keep saying get a GOOD trainer to help you. ANY sound and decent conformed horse can be trained to be the best they can be... and that is usually far better than the owner might think !

    spend time looking for a very good trainer - one who *can* bring out teh best in horses..... it is so cool when you can see it happen


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  12. #132
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    Oh I know...with the help of good trainers we have made SO much progress it's awesome. I know he's got way more in him...but for the OP of this thread...seeing big fancy moving WB's ridden by Ingrid Klimke might not be the most helpful. At least it isn't for me...videos like the ones from the Racehorse Retraining project (posted earlier on thread) and the ones of Purp's young horse(s) are much more helpful.

    Many of these posts are getting so idealistic...posting videos/photos from the internet and not of themselves/their own horses............... Just sayin'.
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  13. #133
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    idealistic? learning from those that do is best is a good way to learn i would much rather learn from Ingrid than the average ammie ...

    in any case - if all folks take from the vids posted is the forward/supple/balance and types and usage of arena figures - it is worth it.

    I am enthusiastic about training because i get to see what it does - every day. it is just so cool!


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  14. #134
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    Again I find myself agreeing with mbm.

    Robby, no horse or rider is naturally completely straight and strong. All of us and all of our horses have musculo-skeletal imbalances and resulting weaknesses. Maybe there was an injury years ago and there was compensation until that became the norm. Maybe there was a slight conformational imbalance. Maybe the horse raced. There can be many reasons. If our horses weren't being asked to carry us on their backs, and were outside whenever they wanted to be these things might not be an issue.

    But we have this desire to ride them and ask them to perform athletic feats which we want them to do to the best of their ability, as safely as possible and be as physically comfortable as possible. That is why I think PT under saddle is a good thing for horses. The horse is very gradually built up to be able to do what we want, mentally and physically. We never work intensively for an hour. Every ride is broken up with stretches and loose rein walks, and we stop when we've accomplished enough. Repetitive drilling is counterproductive and deadly boring, too. What I've been taught to create with, let's see now - 8 different horses over the years is an elastic, responsive, healthy and willing partner.

    Crickey, I'm trying to come back from a traumatic injury, and I really wish I had someone to help me with a program like that!
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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robby Johnson View Post
    But see, this is where I have diverted. If there isn't a problem to begin with, how is it physical therapy? How is it physical therapy when the ongoing drilling/positioning leads to injury, even with the revered "master's" horses?

    I agree with ideayoda that round and deep isn't where you want to be on XC. Moving from behind with neck in a natural "up" position with throatlach open can be trained without ever stepping into a dressage ring.

    Like everything it has evolved/mutated, and is far from its original purpose. Several years ago the Chronicle did a great story comparing modern dressage to classical dressage, including current (at the time) conformation photographs of a grand prix horse from each "school." The classical horse showed a much more naturally developed, functional musculature. You could probably compare it to the difference between a CrossFit/functional fitness athlete (but not the cultish/joint pounding sort) and a hardcore body builder. Theoretically one is better conditioned for a barrage of challenges (and physically stronger), while the other is over-developed and sometimes incapable of bending down to tie their shoes.

    We ask our horses to put their bodies in positions they seldom assume at liberty and, oh yeah, hold it there for an hour. I can do a backbend, but if I did it repeatedly for an hour, I'm fairly certain I'd breaker sooner rather than later.
    CORRECTLY ridden dressage can be physical therapy as it teached the horse to use thier body correctly and efficiently. It also helps the horse build its core muscles to balance better and the training should teach the horse to respond to subtle commands to make them easier to ride.

    In the course of an hour ride they horse should not hold one position, but as when a person does a balanced workout, they will use different muscles and maintain several different positions, each for short period of time.

    In addition, a horse that has been trained correctly in dressage will carry those skills into other disciplines such as jumpers, cross-country, and it will even make a nicer trail horse.

    OTOH, hand dressage is used a euphemism for force the horse into a certain position any way possible and teach the movements as tricks then it can easily cause problems.

    Christa



  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by frugalannie View Post
    Again I find myself agreeing with mbm.

    Robby, no horse or rider is naturally completely straight and strong. All of us and all of our horses have musculo-skeletal imbalances and resulting weaknesses. Maybe there was an injury years ago and there was compensation until that became the norm. Maybe there was a slight conformational imbalance. Maybe the horse raced. There can be many reasons. If our horses weren't being asked to carry us on their backs, and were outside whenever they wanted to be these things might not be an issue.

    But we have this desire to ride them and ask them to perform athletic feats which we want them to do to the best of their ability, as safely as possible and be as physically comfortable as possible. That is why I think PT under saddle is a good thing for horses. The horse is very gradually built up to be able to do what we want, mentally and physically. We never work intensively for an hour. Every ride is broken up with stretches and loose rein walks, and we stop when we've accomplished enough. Repetitive drilling is counterproductive and deadly boring, too. What I've been taught to create with, let's see now - 8 different horses over the years is an elastic, responsive, healthy and willing partner.

    Crickey, I'm trying to come back from a traumatic injury, and I really wish I had someone to help me with a program like that!
    I haven't abandoned ship just yet! I just think they can be correct without being extreme. And, of course, am always humbled by how much they will do for us as a result of the day-in/day-out relationship building we do with them. That, to me, is the value of the tractability exercises. Speaking for myself, I like to edit/simplify what I have to think about when I have 4:29 minutes to cover 2000+ meters and cross 22 obstacles! 1.) This is the pace. 2.) Don't jump too soon. 3.) Don't jump too late. I'm almost always off on 1 of those.

    To the original poster, please please please forgive me for getting into "Oooh Squirrel" territory.

    I did watch the video you posted and I do agree with subk's assertion that you've not created a Kraken of great complexity. Right now he's more "Me Do Dressage." The overall picture was stiff and unbalanced, but I actually liked the natural activity he shows behind. Years ago David O'Connor was quoted in an interview as saying [paraphrasing], "Put their feet in the right place and the frame/shape will come naturally." I think you're on the right track - you recognize a deficiency, you're receptive to learning, and you have a good sense about it and a cute pony to boot.
    When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.


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  17. #137
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    Now I agree with mbm, Christa AND Robby*. A good day indeed!

    * Sorry if I misinterpreted your post. And the squirrels have left the building. They're in my indoor!
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  18. #138
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    At a clinic Jane Savoie said she had a competition mount that really didn't have an extended trot. She said when she asked for the extension in a test she would widen her eyes like she was reacting to a real extension. And the judges gave her good scores.
    "The mighty oak is a nut who stood its ground"

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  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by leahandpie View Post
    Oh I know...with the help of good trainers we have made SO much progress it's awesome. I know he's got way more in him...but for the OP of this thread...seeing big fancy moving WB's ridden by Ingrid Klimke might not be the most helpful. At least it isn't for me...videos like the ones from the Racehorse Retraining project (posted earlier on thread) and the ones of Purp's young horse(s) are much more helpful.

    Many of these posts are getting so idealistic...posting videos/photos from the internet and not of themselves/their own horses............... Just sayin'.
    First of all Thank you mbm!!! I love this discussion...

    And Leahandpie.. I think the only way to really improve is to watch the perfect Samples. Because that gives you the correct perspective. I do not like to watch People and horses who are doing ok..... Because there is a great danger to watch too many mistakes...
    And if it helps...... Here a sample of me with an OTTB from last year.
    This horse had never done any dressage training until I rode him when he was 16. He hadn't been ridden for 2 years and IMO he was not easy in his mouth, so I tried to be very careful. Also I think after 80 races his back was very worn out.
    But still I think you can still in a way get the point what I'm talking about...
    So it is possible also with average riders like me and OTTBs while retraining... By the way at the time of the video I had ridden him for about 6 weeks...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfpx-rs_N-k



  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stacie View Post
    She said when she asked for the extension in a test she would widen her eyes like she was reacting to a real extension. And the judges gave her good scores.
    haha.
    yup, dressage is about confidence and bullshit!

    I also really enjoy the Dressage Symposiums on RFD. They are quite old but very very cool.
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