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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul. 7, 2007
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    150

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    The only equine vet working in our area (mobile practice) uses kinesthesiology, then prescribes expensive herbs. I couldn't see the difference in my horse, but then I couldn't check him with kinesthesiology to find if it was- she neded to come back to tell. I wanted to see if there was rotation in a rescue horse I had taken on, with laminitis, but she had just sold her xry machine-wasn't paying for itself.
    I prefer a more conventional approach.


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  2. #22
    Join Date
    Sep. 2, 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
    Posts
    12,440

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    Oh do not get me going on whack job money sucking chiropractors. (Not saying all chiropractors are this way.) My MIL is going to one right now, several times per week, and has been doing this for man months, because he is fixing everything from her weight (does not seem any better) to her sense of smell.


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  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 2012
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    21

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    Therapies and/or Alternative medicines should never replace conventional medicine. Any practitioner, massage, chiro, acupuncture, etc. that claims to be should be let go, that doesn't mean that the practices themselves are hoaxes.



  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
    Location
    West Coast of Michigan
    Posts
    36,321

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyDarkPassenger View Post
    Therapies and/or Alternative medicines should never replace conventional medicine. Any practitioner, massage, chiro, acupuncture, etc. that claims to be should be let go, that doesn't mean that the practices themselves are hoaxes.

    You can say that about herbal medicine or acupuncture, perhaps. In this case, however, the practice in question is a hoax and should be identified as such without apology or defense. Just calling it 'alternative and complementary' does not give quackery any legitimacy. The use of this modality should bring strongly into question the ethics of the practitioner in all other spheres of their practice. Unless they're doing it for free or as a parlor trick.

    It's like a surgeon doing some palm reading on the side. Would you let this surgeon pick around in your brain? If the answer is yes, well, I guess I'd rest my case.
    Click here before you buy.


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  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2007
    Posts
    9,008

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    Before any therapy is applied to any living being you need a SOAP. You need to make notes, take photos, do labs, etc. As you apply the therapy you need to make more notes, take more photos, more labs etc. Then, and only then, can you make a fair and reasonable judgement on the effectiveness of what you're doing.

    To say "my horse goes better" is one of those perfectly general, perfectly true, and perfectly meaningless statements. In what way did it go poorly before and what is the difference now?

    Long ago, in a prior life, I had to engage a professor of Chiropractic in a medical malpractice suit.* He reviewed the record and found his colleague had grossly failed to maintain the proper professional standards by his failure to examine, and then x-ray, the patient prior to manipulation. We then an interesting conversation on the basis of and limitations of chiropractic. In his opinion a professional chiro did the same basic SOAP approach as any other medical professional. They then had a duty to stay within the boundaries of their discipline. When they went outside spinal manipulation for pain relief and movement (and began to claim that manipulation could effectively address heart disease, cancer, obesity, etc.) then they were no more than quacks. This happened in about 1983.

    We are batting under .400 with forays into chiropractic. This is using both vet. trained and DCs not trained in vet. medicine. The vet. chiros are at .500. The others pull the average down.

    Folks can do what they want with their horses and claim what want as a result of their actions. But if they are challenged to produce some fact to back up a claim then a failure to do so can, and should, be noted. Maybe they will remain "true believers" but us "infidels" have a right to call out the process.

    G.

    *A chiro was engaged to treat back pain in an auto accident victim. The chiro failed to do a proper physical exam, failed to diagnose a partial vertebral fracture, and rendered the patient a quadriplegic. Repair surgery failed and everybody got sued. We had the Neurosurgeon.).
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


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  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 2012
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    21

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    You are going off the basis that you think I have my horse adjusted to "make him (me) feel better". This is how appointment setup happens for me:

    S: Horse is having trouble picking up his left lead. It's odd, usually his right is trickier. It takes him 3-4 tries to pick up the left (also an objective measure).
    O: muscle testing with AK
    A: we discuss the issues together ( again because i have an understanding of the musculature and what weaknesses mean). Chiro adjusts according to weaknesses.
    P: call with any future issues when hey come up

    Later I can objectify the results by assessing that after the adjustment it only takes him 1 try to get the left lead the first ride, rock solid the following rides. I can also assess that about a month and a half later he was off again, was tender in his feet, put shoes back on, and he was back on again.
    I've also been the surrogate that was just slightly off, AK suggested stifle issues, and was confirmed same day by the chiro/DVM that it was with conventional med. Chiro referred to another vet to treat.



  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
    Location
    West Coast of Michigan
    Posts
    36,321

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyDarkPassenger View Post
    You are going off the basis that you think I have my horse adjusted to "make him (me) feel better". This is how appointment setup happens for me:

    S: Horse is having trouble picking up his left lead. It's odd, usually his right is trickier. It takes him 3-4 tries to pick up the left (also an objective measure).
    O: muscle testing with AK
    A: we discuss the issues together ( again because i have an understanding of the musculature and what weaknesses mean). Chiro adjusts according to weaknesses.
    P: call with any future issues when hey come up

    Later I can objectify the results by assessing that after the adjustment it only takes him 1 try to get the left lead the first ride, rock solid the following rides. I can also assess that about a month and a half later he was off again, was tender in his feet, put shoes back on, and he was back on again.
    I've also been the surrogate that was just slightly off, AK suggested stifle issues, and was confirmed same day by the chiro/DVM that it was with conventional med. Chiro referred to another vet to treat.
    Chiro may say he/she is adjusting "according to weaknesses" on the AK exam, but there may be other things on exam that suggest to him/her what needs adjusting. Chiro may not be sharing every detail of what their exam tells them, and may not even be aware that subtle things have suggested themselves to him/her by other means than the AK. Chiro may very well be deluded him/herself about the whole AK process. I'd rather believe that than that he/she is a shameless charlatan. Because it's got to be one or the other.

    I had a slightly off horse who was having intermittent problems with picking up leads, too. Shoeing change seemed to help at first, then it didn't. Gee whiz, it was a stifle issue.

    If you're a medical/science person, what rational explanation (external to your own experience) would you give for something like this, and would you say it's closer to a psychic/mystical thing or a specific biological phenomenon? If it's the latter, can you explain it to yourself so that you have a good grasp, or are you going on faith?

    Because it's faith healing, really, nothing more and nothing less. There are those who believe in that, as well, when a careful digging into the story reveals either an elaborate cold reading, a healthy slug of self-delusion, or problems that probably would have gotten better on their own. Or all of the above.

    Even "medical people" have beliefs and wishes. It does not make one immune to the power of suggestion or the desire to respond to a test. Especially when one wants to help another individual, the likelihood of a "negative" AK reading is small--the surrogate wants to find something, so by golly something will be found.
    Click here before you buy.


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  8. #28
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 2010
    Posts
    1,486

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    Nothing like tunnel vision on the horse boards!


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  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
    Location
    Nokesville, VA
    Posts
    35,218

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    Quote Originally Posted by davistina67 View Post
    Nothing like tunnel vision on the horse boards!
    Yes, but which tunnel has a light at the end, and which has an on-coming train?
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


    3 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 2010
    Posts
    1,486

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    Yes, but which tunnel has a light at the end, and which has an on-coming train?
    LOL, exactly!



  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
    Location
    West Coast of Michigan
    Posts
    36,321

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    Nothing like pseudoscience and quackery, either. Until the next variation comes along. Give it about 3 days. Wonder if it will be magnets next time, or Reiki? Maybe homeopathy--that's my very favorite. More "quantum physics" flung out there as explanation for a bunch of nonsense.
    Click here before you buy.


    1 members found this post helpful.

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