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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Yes, but what the tinfoil hatters leave out may be one of the more important sections of JSwan's post:
    I don't know who the "tin foil hatters" are, or why they would leave that out.

    Also don't know if you and I have enough in common to even converse on any animal-related topic, Laura, as you recently told me that slaughter would be preferable to a horse pulling a carriage in NYC. After that, any conversation between us seems pointless to me.
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts



  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    It's the knee-jerk 'it's a conspiracy!' reaction that is not helpful.
    Agreed. Conspiracy theories are great.

    In novels.

    I don't care for them in real life - they make a person paranoid.

    Besides - when it comes to the goals of the AR movement the people have been very open and honest about their goal - they don't need to conspire at all. So I believe them.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    If you live where this legislation is being implemented and you feel it's poorly configured.. go ahead and work to get it fixed to your satisfaction.

    If you don't live there, make sure that your area institutes legislation that makes sense [whatever that means].

    That's how our country is supposed to work... with input from citizens on how things are to be governed.

    It's the knee-jerk 'it's a conspiracy!' reaction that is not helpful.
    That is where you are wrong.
    Animal rights extremist groups ARE moving in many areas, are bringing all kinds of bills in all places.

    Those groups are going to other countries where they are organizing international drives.
    When two years ago the HSUS president went to Paris, France to coordinate animal rights groups there, at the same time international police groups were having a round of seminars, one of those was, guess what, how to handle animal rights extremists.

    No, the conspiracy really deserves a knee -jerk response, if you want to keep your rights, it always has, is what makes the USA a good place to be.
    Here you can respond to what others are trying to do to change the world in ways that don't make sense, unlike in other places, where a dictator or group of dictators do what they want and everyone else has to sit back and endure, or be run over.
    Remember, animal rights extremists have been known, from personally harass people, to foment outright terroristm to make their point.


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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post

    But - again - every jurisdiction should have provisions for seizures, emergency euthanasia, and they should all have minimum care standards for livestock and pets. There should be severe punishment for those who abuse or mistreat animals. This is good public policy. I just cannot embrace bad or agenda driven legislation, and I cannot support giving animal rights groups more power over our ownership of animals. I just can't go there.
    What defines 'agenda driven legislation'? Is it simply if any RaRa group is involved at all? Don't ALL parties involved on all sides [of anything] have an 'agenda'?

    Who cares WHO brings about the outlining of a bill... if that bill has some merit, and we can then further flesh it out to make it complete [as if]... who cares who brought it up? THAT is what I do not understand!

    For every witch hunt case in which an innocent person was destroyed by a piece of legislation being enforced... there are cases in which laws are not enforced in which there is suffering.
    Is it really a reasonable expectation that that potential [in either direction] can be completely and thorough eliminated?



  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    What defines 'agenda driven legislation'? Is it simply if any RaRa group is involved at all? Don't ALL parties involved on all sides [of anything] have an 'agenda'?
    Yes - but one agenda wants to restore/preserve rights, and the other side wants to take them away.
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts



  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaleenflynn View Post
    Where I have been shrill and hysterical? lol
    oh shut it, Casandra....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  7. #107
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    One way of looking at it is if the proposed legislation tends to negatively impact the animal owner, inserts an unaccountable third party into the owner/animal relationship, and expands the powers of that unaccountable third party, and provides little or no remedy to an aggrieved owner. And the legislation will also be so vague as to be easily manipulated, not require extensive training or oversight- again - to the detriment of the animal owner.

    That legislation is intended to insert an unaccountable third party and forever change the animal/owner relationship. The owner has less control over the welfare of his animal or the decisions he makes about it - and the state (and that third party whispering in its ear) gains more control - but is not accountable and can only be made accountable at great cost.

    A better piece of legislation will simply state where and how property may be seized; and balance that power by providing remedies and protections for individual citizens. Definitions will be clear, concise, and not open to interpretation.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaleenflynn View Post
    I don't know who the "tin foil hatters" are, or why they would leave that out.

    Also don't know if you and I have enough in common to even converse on any animal-related topic, Laura, as you recently told me that slaughter would be preferable to a horse pulling a carriage in NYC. After that, any conversation between us seems pointless to me.
    Except that is NOT what I said. Nice try though.

    This is what I said.


    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY
    I don't think carriage horses belong on the streets of NY. That's it in a nutshell. I'm not against slaughter, there are worse things than death.
    And your response:

    ...and does that mean death is preferable to being a NYC carriage horse?
    The comment I made was in response to your poem that for some reason you felt you needed to send me by PM about a horse at an auction. My comment was for the horse at the auction...there are worse things than death.

    The reply I attempted to send you (your message box is full) said "I guess it can mean whatever you want it to mean." In other words, I knew full well you took it the wrong way.

    But carry on with your tin foil hat friends. I think you're barking up the wrong tree in your defense, but that seems to be the direction you've chosen to take.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaleenflynn View Post
    Yes - but one agenda wants to restore/preserve rights, and the other side wants to take them away.
    And my point is that there is a middle ground that can be found if the name calling and knee-jerking would stop.

    Would I be beyond unhappy if someone seized my dog whom I had tied to a post outside the grocery store? Well for one I would never tie my dog like that 'cause there are some real nasty pricks out there, Pitt bait comes to mind... but yes I would be upset if I had done so and s/he were seized.

    I would be equally upset if my dog got loose, HBC and was left to suffer when euth. would have been more humane, but AC had their hands tied and could not put him/her to sleep because of some 'we don't want no legislation' BS.


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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    oh shut it, Casandra....
    ROFL - where is my chorus?
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts



  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    And my point is that there is a middle ground that can be found if the name calling and knee-jerking would stop.
    The only name-calling I saw on this thread has been "tin foil hatters".
    As for knee-jerking, you'd have to be more specific.

    Middle ground? Halfway to a bad place is still going in the wrong direction.
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts



  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    And my point is that there is a middle ground that can be found if the name calling and knee-jerking would stop.

    Would I be beyond unhappy if someone seized my dog whom I had tied to a post outside the grocery store? Well for one I would never tie my dog like that 'cause there are some real nasty pricks out there, Pitt bait comes to mind... but yes I would be upset if I had done so and s/he were seized.

    I would be equally upset if my dog got loose, HBC and was left to suffer when euth. would have been more humane, but AC had their hands tied and could not put him/her to sleep because of some 'we don't want no legislation' BS.
    Just tell me, who do you want making policy for animal owners, some animal rights extremists groups that are all for eliminating all use of animals by humans and demanding all become vegans, or those of us that know animals and what is good and standard and what is unacceptable and why and how to go about it, as so many laws we already have determine?

    Why add some more odd laws in the books, laws that really don't make much sense if you know animals, just because someone extremists decide that is the way the world should be run now?

    Don't forget that those animal rights extremists groups only existence and way to finance it is to make waves, no matter how or if they make sense.
    That is what fills their coffers.


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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    I would be equally upset if my dog got loose, HBC and was left to suffer when euth. would have been more humane, but AC had their hands tied and could not put him/her to sleep because of some 'we don't want no legislation' BS.
    I never said I didn't want any legislation; we are a nation of laws. I said that no RARA group should ever be given a seat at any animal legislation table, ever.
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaleenflynn View Post
    The only name-calling I saw on this thread has been "tin foil hatters".
    As for knee-jerking, you'd have to be more specific.

    Middle ground? Halfway to a bad place is still going in the wrong direction.
    The the title of the thread is "Tin Foil Hatters Unite. More animal rights attacks." You came to post in agreement with the original poster, with no caveats...you need to complain to Leo about your designation.

    Personally, I have no use for people who only see black and white...there are always shades of gray.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    The the title of the thread is "Tin Foil Hatters Unite. More animal rights attacks." You came to post in agreement with the original poster, with no caveats...you need to complain to Leo about your designation.

    Personally, I have no use for people who only see black and white...there are always shades of gray.
    yeah, but if the shades are all dark gray, they might as well be black....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  16. #116
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    I am not posting, not because I am not reading but I am becoming more informed as to the diversification of interpretation with what I posted.

    The comments here are very relevant

    Thank you

    Leo



  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    yeah, but if the shades are all dark gray, they might as well be black....
    How so?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    The the title of the thread is "Tin Foil Hatters Unite. More animal rights attacks." You came to post in agreement with the original poster, with no caveats...you need to complain to Leo about your designation.

    Personally, I have no use for people who only see black and white...there are always shades of gray.
    Black and white, shades of gray?
    I think that is not at all what is going on here.
    There are way more layers to these questions than such a glib evaluation deserves.

    Give it another try.


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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    How so?
    Oh come on.
    Really?

    Do we now have to drag every little snippet of historical evidence out again, to show when people slept on the job, the evil doers merrily dumped the manure cart over the fan?

    Do we really need to wait until we can only watch with helpless aspiration?

    I am too tired to play that game with you.

    You are normally a pretty smart cookie. Go and let your mind amble down that road. Don't think about the desired effects. Think about all the craptastic stuff life can throw at you, because what can go wrong will go wrong.

    Yes, we have had the precedent before, people telling you all the bad things they want to do, then they did it. And everybody was astonished....really?

    here we have a group of people with millions and millions in the bank - which effectively makes them richer than the US government!
    They are working every lever and button they can lay their greedy little fingers on.
    If the cute little puppies don't do the trick, they pay terrorists to do some intimidating.

    but fine...pay no mind to the man behind the curtain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    The the title of the thread is "Tin Foil Hatters Unite. More animal rights attacks." You came to post in agreement with the original poster, with no caveats...you need to complain to Leo about your designation.

    Personally, I have no use for people who only see black and white...there are always shades of gray.
    Why does it always have to be this pervasive Us Vs Them mentality.

    We all admittedly are animal lovers , we all agree on the importance of animal welfare and we all agree that legislation to define those things are important.

    It is the grey areas that are always subject to personal experience and interpretation.

    Honest question for those who call out the "Tin Foil Hatters". What about their/our cynicism and speculation do you really take issue with? We are not suggesting no legislation. Just pointing out the potential fallibility in the one provided by the OP. The law is fine , great , dandy ...but it allows for personal interpretation. I think asking for more definition is not a bad thing? Who would it hurt ..nobody. It could only prevent issues.

    Not suggesting no laws just gleaning that we should be cognitive of the laws and their interpretation we make and support.

    I know nobody likes the boy who cried wolf . Just remember in the end the wolf did come.
    Last edited by Lynnwood; Feb. 12, 2013 at 12:31 PM.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


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