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  1. #41
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    Gosh, all kinds of additional responses while I fiddled around with chores and typed mine. Just glanced and noted the same sentiments.

    I assume the majority of North American breeders’ children would sooner gargle with wasps and stick pins in their eyes than pick up the gauntlet of our operations. They might not be able to articulate reasons but a blind man can see the fragmented infrastructure, lack of recognition and support, the vast geographical challenges and the constant battle breeders face in order to do and be (I feel a Frank Sinatra song coming on…doo-be-doo-be-doo…LOL!) all things - - and be very good at all of it - - at every single part of the process, take on all associated risks, and also be willing to make financial concessions to entice their target audience.

    Of course I’m generalising and all sorts of caveats apply but unless the kids are hard core breeding fanatics specifically, who in their right mind wants that? Unless you have an established reputation and healthy finances and your own operation is expansive or robust enough to mitigate risks and costs, it’s a one man battle -- right from manufacturing the gun to fighting alone in the trenches.

    Another thing brewing in my mind -- and which I may not be able to articulate clearly, yet - - is the possibility that the WB community lacks the same external “support” as those of the QH, TB etc industries mentioned earlier, because we’re actually Europe’s legacy, little satellite entities waving the banner but minus the benefits of our association, i.e. their infrastructure, recognition or industry support.
    GreenGate Stables
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  2. #42
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    I agree, it is all about having a legacy. To build a legacy, we need a database and we need a better means of keeping the papers with the horse. We just sold a couple of sporthorses from our program. 3 months later, they have been re-sold and have now vanished due to receiving a new USEF number and a new name. This is not only a problem for North America but has become a large problem for imports, too. I think this needs to stop at the USEF horse number application process. Microchipping with the issue of a number and requiring a scan before a new number is issued is one solution. Another solution is that when a new number is applied for, the owner should be required to either present the papers or provide a form from the breeder stating the horse's age, sire, dam, etc. There could be a hardship clause for horses purchased without papers at say a stock sale. I understand that the hunter world depends on being able to "lose" papers to recreate a horse to maintain eligibility for a division or to recreate a history to increase value, but this practice is hugely hindering progress of our breeding programs.

    When you ask buyers why they go to Europe, most commonly the answers will be that they can see a large number of horses in a short period and the horses are better prepared. Small breeders in North America lack the resources to prepare horses, i.e. it is expensive to send out for training and difficult to find good young horse trainers, it is cost prohibitive to compete a young horse, and it is difficult to get buyers to travel to see just one or two horses and when the buyers do see the horses, they are not presented well. We need solutions for these problems.

    In Germany, the young riders are key to the young horse development. We need training schools around the country that develop young riders without resources (with good trainers teaching them!) while offering young horse development programs that are reasonably priced for owners.

    We need to get young horses on track for their age. Waiting to start a horse at 5 years of age is inappropriate in most cases and shots the breeder in the foot as the horse is so far behind in its training.

    We need to educate breeders. The mentality of breeding for an amateur horse is just an excuse that quality is lacking in your breeding program. Breeders should be breeding for an amateur friendly horse with talent for the upper levels. Sure the market is largest for 3' hunters, but is way easier to rider a scopey horse at 3' than one that struggles over every jump and has nothing left over to bail you out if you make a mistake.
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
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  3. #43
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    So many good points have been made here, but I think this one mentioned by Tim very early on this thread is perhaps the greatest stumbling block -

    Lastly I need a competent database which utilizes One # One Horse as its foundation to catalog pedigree's properly and records performance effectively.
    How can breeders attract buyers when they don't have stats to back them up on what their breeding programs, their mare families, or the stallion's family, has produced?

    How can buyers know they are looking at a prospect with a solid pedigree of top performing individuals? Why does everyone have to rely on stats from Europe that may be two, three, four or more generations back? How can we build breeding dynasties in this country without those kind of stats to help guide us?

    As has been said so many times before on this forum, we receive very little help from our NBG in tracking bloodlines vis-à-vis performance. USEF pays lip service to this very real need by making it optional for people to record horses without documented proof of bloodlines or breeder into, etc., by making it too easy for buyers to change identities of horses, by providing top sire stats that have to be taken with a grain of salt because so many horses are recorded as by this stallion or that stallion, but no documented proof has been provided to USEF, or because top winning horses by a certain stallion never got recorded with USEF as by that sire, so their results don’t count toward his rankings, etc. And breeder info is left off USEF registrations on so many horses, that one can’t even trust THOSE rankings, either.

    Seems to me if we could get USEF to get on the bandwagon and REQUIRE proper recording of bloodlines and breeder info, their stats would be SO much more reliable. And that would be a win-win for everyone except those unethical folks who make a good living from selling horses with stolen identities (and why should our NBG continue to make life easy for THOSE folks, while making it more difficult for the HONEST folks?).


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  4. #44
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    Show jumper I feel like I have a theme these last few days in discussing the need to certify our instructors like they do in Germany.

    We have the Parelli's teaching dressage on the wings of a few europeans they wrangled in and good instruction breeds more good riders and that means more good young riders.

    The reason this pertains?

    I know two people who have horses coming four that their supposed good trainers dont even have riding in the main arena yet let alone ready to compete when their price tag rivals a european horse of that age thats already gone to a few shows.

    I think young horse training is its own field.

    If we had more reputable trainers certified and easily looked up in our regions we would be able to have more connections and more ability to network. Now days trainers follow the medals and medals only mean you have the horses and the money to get them even if your trainer did the actual training or you never touched a young horse. Jumpers differ but not by much. You can lease a good horse to get your GP status.

    Regionally it could be easily done having 4 weekends or weeks out of the year working with a judge/trainer who is accomplished and having them score you on your ability through training stages (both dressage and jumpers).

    I think if we had more bronze through gold instructor medals as well as young horse specific certification for the specific trainer who enjoys that area people could network and keep track of all of this!
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/


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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    So many good points have been made here, but I think this one mentioned by Tim very early on this thread is perhaps the greatest stumbling block -



    How can breeders attract buyers when they don't have stats to back them up on what their breeding programs, their mare families, or the stallion's family, has produced?

    How can buyers know they are looking at a prospect with a solid pedigree of top performing individuals? Why does everyone have to rely on stats from Europe that may be two, three, four or more generations back? How can we build breeding dynasties in this country without those kind of stats to help guide us?

    As has been said so many times before on this forum, we receive very little help from our NBG in tracking bloodlines vis-à-vis performance. USEF pays lip service to this very real need by making it optional for people to record horses without documented proof of bloodlines or breeder into, etc., by making it too easy for buyers to change identities of horses, by providing top sire stats that have to be taken with a grain of salt because so many horses are recorded as by this stallion or that stallion, but no documented proof has been provided to USEF, or because top winning horses by a certain stallion never got recorded with USEF as by that sire, so their results don’t count toward his rankings, etc. And breeder info is left off USEF registrations on so many horses, that one can’t even trust THOSE rankings, either.

    Seems to me if we could get USEF to get on the bandwagon and REQUIRE proper recording of bloodlines and breeder info, their stats would be SO much more reliable. And that would be a win-win for everyone except those unethical folks who make a good living from selling horses with stolen identities (and why should our NBG continue to make life easy for THOSE folks, while making it more difficult for the HONEST folks?).
    At the risk of upsetting all the wonderful breeders here...

    I will tell you that from the perspective of an amateur/buyer... at least for the hunter/jumper rings where I've spent the great majority of my riding life... I will tell you that very, very few people will spend significant money on a young prospect based on the papers.

    As has been noted, most buyers like me (and I believe we are the majority) want to buy horses that we can get on and ride.

    I don't mind making up a young, green horse. But I want to be able to at least sit on him and get a sense of temperament and ability before I plunk down that check. If I like what I find, then great - having that horse's papers is kind of a fun bonus. There is no way in *&# I'd buy a horse based solely or largely on the accomplishments of his parents. Just too much risk for someone who boards out, and can only have one or two at a time.

    I know, I know - that is very upsetting to those who spend countless hours poring over studbooks and breeding for the best possible foals, and understandably so. But I'm really not sure forcing people to produce papers and breeder info is the right thing for our NGB to do.

    I say this knowing that there ARE some unscrupulous sellers out there, but also knowing that there are lots and lots and lots of very nice horses out there who simply have no papers to offer. Should their owners not be allowed to compete them?

    Maybe my attitude is so negative because of all the hoops I've had to jump through recently trying to get my horse all the new credentials he needs to be shown in dressage - my new discipline. I bought my horse a LIFETIME recording with the USEF when I got him years ago and showed him in the hunters. I also have a USEF/USHJA membership acquired years ago.

    None of that means a d@mn thing to the USDF, though. God forbid they use the same numbers I've had - for years - through the same NGB. Ohhhhh no, now we need all NEW numbers, both me & the horse. And if you want to register for the Silver Stirrup award program through the PHR (a USEF enterprise)...? Oh no, nothing transfers... you have to send all of it in AGAIN, along with yet another copy of the papers.

    Sorry, but it's enough to make this amateur want to just say, "UNKNOWN" and be done with it.
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina


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  6. #46
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    Yes, but if that original lifetime number application had been completed with the breeding and breeders name, then it would have been a non-issue with USDF down the road.

    The majority of those nice horses without papers probably had or have papers at one point. We simply need to start holding people accountable for being honest and give them incentive to do so.

    I understand that breeding is not important to many riders and you ride the horse and not the papers, but if the riders want a continued pipeline of good horses than they need to learn to respect the process of how that horse came to be because some of those pipelines are drying up. It is our job to provide education as to why this is important and why this is a problem that we need to fix now.

    We just returned from Germany and met with the Breeding Director of one of the Verbands. They were struggling with the problem of horses being exported to other countries (especially the US) and then losing them to this "lost papers" problem. Why is this important? They were losing the means to track the success of their breeding programs. When you lose the ability to track the success, you lose the tools the breeders need to make educated breeding decisions. You may not see the results of this immediately, but years down the road it is going to affect the quality. It also affects marketability. For example, say a small breeder in Germany sent several of his young horses to auction and they sold to the US. He is struggling to sell in this economy and ends up going out of business. Here in the US, his young horses are some of the top hunters in the country, but we don't know that because a trainer tossed the papers so that he could show the horses in the pregreens and no one would know where to go to purchase around him, renamed the horse, and the breeding and the breeder is listed as unknown. That could have been a resource to find other great horses or to learn from this breeder, but it is now gone.
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    Yes, but if that original lifetime number application had been completed with the breeding and breeders name, then it would have been a non-issue with USDF down the road.

    The majority of those nice horses without papers probably had or have papers at one point. We simply need to start holding people accountable for being honest and give them incentive to do so.

    I understand that breeding is not important to many riders and you ride the horse and not the papers, but if the riders want a continued pipeline of good horses than they need to learn to respect the process of how that horse came to be because some of those pipelines are drying up. It is our job to provide education as to why this is important and why this is a problem that we need to fix now.

    We just returned from Germany and met with the Breeding Director of one of the Verbands. They were struggling with the problem of horses being exported to other countries (especially the US) and then losing them to this "lost papers" problem. Why is this important? They were losing the means to track the success of their breeding programs. When you lose the ability to track the success, you lose the tools the breeders need to make educated breeding decisions. You may not see the results of this immediately, but years down the road it is going to affect the quality. It also affects marketability. For example, say a small breeder in Germany sent several of his young horses to auction and they sold to the US. He is struggling to sell in this economy and ends up going out of business. Here in the US, his young horses are some of the top hunters in the country, but we don't know that because a trainer tossed the papers so that he could show the horses in the pregreens and no one would know where to go to purchase around him, renamed the horse, and the breeding and the breeder is listed as unknown. That could have been a resource to find other great horses or to learn from this breeder, but it is now gone.
    Yes, I understand and appreciate the argument that you are making. There is a great deal of truth in it. I guess my main objection is that if you ask the USEF to take this on as a mandatory requirement, I fear it will simply drive more people "outside the wire," so to speak.

    My comment above was mostly directed toward my friend DY's statement about the need to document the performance records of a horse's parents as a way to attract buyers - something that I believe has less influence on buyers than I think many breeders realize. (Rightly or wrongly!)

    Many of the A shows are declining, and losing customers to the unrated circuits, where lower costs and fewer fees make showing more affordable. Over on the H/J board you will find lots of people who have written about the impact all the fees have had on their decisions about where and how often to show.

    In and of themselves, no single fee is particularly material as a rule. However, when you get to the point where you have to spend several hundreds just to show up - before setting foot in a single class - then it becomes a problem.

    Of course, as I said, I can understand and appreciate the challenge posed to the breeders. Perhaps it would make sense for the breeders to obtain these recording/registration numbers for the horses they produce, instead of relying on the eventual buyers to do so?
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  8. #48
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    Many of the breeders do obtain lifetime numbers, but once they hit the competitions and are re-sold, the horse's name is changed and it has a new USEF number. This is so the trainer can create or lose a history. Sometimes, it is so a young girl can rename the horse and make it her own and the change of name is done incorrectly by applying for a new number rather than using a change of name form.
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    Many of the breeders do obtain lifetime numbers, but once they hit the competitions and are re-sold, the horse's name is changed and it has a new USEF number. This is so the trainer can create or lose a history. Sometimes, it is so a young girl can rename the horse and make it her own and the change of name is done incorrectly by applying for a new number rather than using a change of name form.
    Agreed. Even I, well past the "girl" stage of life (!) generally rename my horses when I purchase them. They are rarely if ever recorded with the USEF before that purchase, because I generally import mine as youngsters. (Before you all jump down my throat, I *do* keep the papers and record the information correctly, to the extent that I have it, when I get the horse his USEF number.)

    But I would gently point out that many of these horses are sold by agents/trainers, which often makes getting that form filled out correctly a challenge even if they do have an existing number. Very often the buyers do not even know the seller's name.
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina


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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    Many of the breeders do obtain lifetime numbers, but once they hit the competitions and are re-sold, the horse's name is changed and it has a new USEF number. This is so the trainer can create or lose a history. Sometimes, it is so a young girl can rename the horse and make it her own and the change of name is done incorrectly by applying for a new number rather than using a change of name form.
    This, exactly. Most breeders will obtain lifetime recording numbers from USEF in December of the year the foal is born as it is much more economical to do so. In the instance of imported horses, an entire history of performance is erased and the horse may compete in divisons lower than where it would compete were the records retained.
    Sakura Hill Farm
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    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.


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  11. #51
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    In the long run, requiring papers would be to the benefit of the owners and riders as it will help keep the trainers and agents honest. If you have the means of knowing who the seller is even though you are working through an agent, the agent will be more cautious about adding on 50% to the horse's price to you. Also, you wouldn't be in the pre-green ring on a green horse competing against a horse that has been renamed and was a top junior hunter under a different name. You won't be in the 6 year old young jumper ring competing against 8 year olds. As with anything, change is painful and takes time, but this is a change that needs to happen.

    Another change that needs to happen is our paperwork process at the shows. It is nuts that we are not online with our entry system. We should be able to enter USEF numbers for horse, owner, rider, trainer, then verify information, choose classes, and then sign off.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucassb View Post

    .....

    But I would gently point out that many of these horses are sold by agents/trainers, which often makes getting that form filled out correctly a challenge even if they do have an existing number. Very often the buyers do not even know the seller's name.
    This is absolutely true! We sold at WEF through an agent and made ALL papers available to him---registration, performance record, vet records, and USEF Lifetime recording number---all of which disappeared at the time of the sale.

    It took us a long while, but eventually we found the mare under a different name winning championship after championship in the MidWest without the owners even knowing that she had been imported (by us)! They were thrilled to have information about her background.

    There certainly must be ways to prevent this from happening though at the USEF level. It is harmful to breeders, owners--who may have a better bred, more talented and valuable horse than they know --- as well as horses as some may actually be highly valued as breeding stock.
    Sakura Hill Farm
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    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.



  13. #53
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    I agree with so much of Lucassb's first post. I bought a US bred youngster, but it was an ORDEAL due to time, distance and lack of a centralized way to find out about young horses. But I also strongly agree with the one number one horse idea. Interestingly, my youngster is from a reputable breeder, with a long history of breeding good stock. I have her name as breeder on all of the "numbers" for my horse, yet when I looked at her year end statistics, my horse was not listed as contributing even a point (and we earned many points in USEF/USDF shows.) Why not?? I didn't misspell it, but perhaps I should have not included her middle initial?? Our "system" doesn't work. As a dressage rider I do care about breeding, and results of sire and mareline, and I am disappointed that my mare's breeder did not get credit.



  14. #54
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    If we had "breeding regions" that were highly dense with warmblood breeders we could compete with the convenience of Europe trip. My area of the US is beautiful and perfect climate for horse keeping

    I don't think we could establish the gala like events of stallion shows, mare shows, auctions etc like they have in Europe. It just is not part of our culture. In Germany the whole family attends these events. Results of dressage shows are printed in the sports sections of their newspaper!! I just don't think we could even get close to the attendance. The Ehlers used to have autions in CA when they had Glenwood Farms. They were moderately successful and attended. And they put in A LOT of effort, time, money, etc to do a VERY professional job....but folks here just don't see auctions the same way.

    Combining things with big events already in place...say for example in Wellington...is a good idea but not at all convenient or feasible for most. I for one am not going to ship my weanlings, yearlings, etc. 14 hours for a single show. Not only is it stressful but very costly.

    I'll say this again:

    We need REGIONS here in the US to develop. These regions would allow folks to make a trip similar to that of Europe with convenience, would allow to have REGIONAL shows for our young horses and develop some sort of prestige to an area....similar to how Wellington developed for dressage. It is THE place to be for dressage shows 4 months of the year. We need an area(s) that is THE place to go to look for young horses.

    We need our breeders to educate themselves and then find someone...family, friend...to pass this knowledge on. We need to foster a young breeders program to mentor them and make "legacies".

    We need (somehow) to make ENGLISH equestrian sports accessible to the US population. Not sure how to do this, or if it is even possible, but we need to make our shows "sporting events", social gathering events for the local people....not just the few already there attending because they are the competing participants
    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html


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  15. #55
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    I think perhaps one other mindset that often holds us back. Is the need for "control" of to whom and where the youngstock end up. The idea of young horse auctions are a turn off to some because there is not ultimate control over who makes the last bid.

    Bluehof made this valid statement :" I for one am not going to ship my weanlings, yearlings, etc. 14 hours for a single show. Not only is it stressful but very costly.

    Would you ship them if at the end of said show you were able to guarantee them a spot in an auction supported by sport horse peers where they had the opportunity to be purchased by a gathering of the best in the country ?

    That being said , I don't suggest that anyone place fast and loose with their horse placement for the dollar.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  16. #56
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    SJ66 has already replied much more eloquently than I am capable of, but I will submit my thoughts anyway.

    Lucassb, I hear you about how ridiculous it is that USEF, USDF, etc., etc., have separate "registration" processes for horses, owners, riders, etc. It is an absurd system.

    And I totally understand you saying you don't care about papers, you just want something you can ride.

    And therein lies one of the biggest challenges for BREEDERS (which is the topic of this thread). How do we get RIDERS and TRAINERS to value what we do?

    And I will also make this point - you bought your current horse in Germany, and you talk about going to Germany to look for a new horse. But the warmblood breeding industry in Germany is BUILT on solid stats such as I describe (i.e., that tie bloodlines to performance). It is impossible to produce those kind of RELIABLE stats without documented proof of bloodlines being provided to the governing body.

    The FN is way-way-way ahead of USEF in recognizing the importance of accurate stats, and that is a VERY big reason why Germany is way-way-way ahead of the US in producing top horses. The system is set up there to make it very, very difficult to NOT provide accurate bloodline documentation to the FN – not only for foals registered, but also for competing horses. So BREEDERS have info on how various bloodlines produce, so they can make more informed decisions when selecting stallions for their mares, and TRAINERS have info on what to expect or not expect from horses coming into their programs, so they can make more informed decisions on how to structure the training program for a particular horse (i.e., is it from bloodlines known for an easy going attitude, or is it from bloodlines known for hot,, explosive behavior, etc.). And OWNERS, BUYERS, SALES AGENTS, etc., have info on how horses from comparable bloodlines are developing, or performing, or selling, so they can make more informed decisions on planning competition blueprints for the horse, or on marketing them, etc.

    By contrast, the system here is set up to make it oh-so-easy for an owner to bypass providing accurate documentation when registering her horses, and there is really NO requirement (except for certain specialized programs) for show managers to provide bloodline data for horses entered in their competitions. In short, the system here is a fustercluck that does not do much at all to help breeders make better breeding decisions, nor does it help buyers OR sellers (again, except for those disreputable ones who like changing horse’s identities whenever it suits them), etc. Furthermore, having a database that relies on alphabetical input is insane – I have seen the same stallion’s name spelled 4 different ways in the USEF database – and it is a fairly simple name, too!


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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    Snip....

    Lucassb, I hear you about how ridiculous it is that USEF, USDF, etc., etc., have separate "registration" processes for horses, owners, riders, etc. It is an absurd system.

    And I totally understand you saying you don't care about papers, you just want something you can ride.

    And therein lies one of the biggest challenges for BREEDERS (which is the topic of this thread). How do we get RIDERS and TRAINERS to value what we do?

    And I will also make this point - you bought your current horse in Germany, and you talk about going to Germany to look for a new horse. But the warmblood breeding industry in Germany is BUILT on solid stats such as I describe (i.e., that tie bloodlines to performance). It is impossible to produce those kind of RELIABLE stats without documented proof of bloodlines being provided to the governing body.
    Oh, I hear you, my friend Truly, I do!

    But the reason I've gone to Germany is:
    A) I can see more nice prospects in one weekend (and for the price of a single plane ticket) than I can in a month of flying around the US and

    B) Because the horses that are presented to me there are just plain further along - and therefore much easier to evaluate.

    I don't doubt that there are equally nice horses being bred in the US. They are just too d*mn hard and expensive to find, and when you do find them, they haven't done enough for someone like me to be able to evaluate them.

    And frankly those US horses are frequently priced higher than the ones in Europe that you can sit on and maybe even jump over a few small jumps; many have been out and showing a bit, which all reduces the risk of me winding up with a horse that is not suitable for my purposes. I understand why that is the case - it is clearly more expensive to produce a young horse here - but the reality is that that makes going to Europe a lot more attractive.

    It's not that I don't care about the papers; I appreciate that careful selective breeding is a good thing and makes it more likely that the resulting animals will have the desired characteristics and abilities.

    My point was simply that if I was choosing between the nice young horse that I could sit on and do a bit of WTC with, and the nice young horse who hadn't been started yet, but had parents with very successful performance records, the one I can sit on is going to win, every time.
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina


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  18. #58
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2009
    Location
    Dade City, Florida, USA
    Posts
    11

    Default

    Well,
    One of the most frustrating things that I deal with as a breeder, are people who claim to have little money or be willing to spend little money on a North American bred horse yet once time has passed you learn they have gone to Europe to purchase a much more costly animal. When you add the numbers and see the horse and pedigree it is obvious that said person has shelled out a LOT of money and almost always on a horse that is less quality than what they could have purchased here in North America. Hey, but it rode on a plane, It HAS to be worth more RIGHT? The answer to that is often no, it will certainly cost more. Unless you REALLY know what you are looking at and stick to your guns, unless you are willing to come home without purchasing a horse most times you will be sold what your knowledge or lack thereof will allow. It's just a fact. Then there is a matter of getting the equine here and making the adjustment to the new feeds etc.
    You will never know specifically the care the animal had when they were young and that becomes oh so important later in life when it can crop up as ocd's colic etc. Sure there are plenty of good stories about importing horses but it is more risky with less recourse than purchasing here.
    When buying young untrained stock, there are so many reputable long time breeders here and there is SO much information available from breed associations you can narrow your search just by going to the breed association web sites.
    For instance the KWPN/NA in the last few years started the breeders awards. This is a POINTS system in which breeders can attain Silver Gold and Platinum levels. These breeders are proven. It's a very good place to start without jumping on a plane and going to Europe.
    We have lots of Great or potentially great horses bred in North America. Look up the inspection results, look for Silver, Gold and Platinum level KWPN breeders, ask the other breed associations where you can find their inspection results and start there.
    Yes, for me the challenge would be the large amount of buyers who still perceive they can only get the quality they desire in Europe.
    Nancy Debosek, Lone Palm Ranch
    www.LonePalmRanch.com
    Breeder of Multiple top five KWPN horses
    KWPN-NA **Silver Level Breeder**


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2006
    Location
    North Central Florida
    Posts
    1,380

    Default

    Just as an aside, KWPN will track horses for breeders if names are changed as long as they are provided with the registered name as well as the new show name.
    Sakura Hill Farm
    Now on Facebook

    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.



  20. #60
    Join Date
    Dec. 10, 2010
    Location
    nevada
    Posts
    264

    Default

    Nancy, Again it is currently hard and expensive to find the American Bred. I don't think the horses in Europe are better, but to be able to see and try 20 in a weekend just isn't duplicated here. I wish I know how to do it, but 10 plane tickets around the country for myself and trainer, and the TIME is EXPENSIVE! I think I would have spent less buying from Europe, even with importation. I am a single buyer, but I have two very nice American Bred horses and I am proud of that. Working full time makes multiple trips hard, and I know I am not alone. Some degree of centralization would be great, cooperatives where breeders might say I don't have that but so-and-so does etc. Few breed association websites really have much updated info on sale horses (I looked!).



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