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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 2000
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    Southern Pines, N.C.
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    11,422

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    I never said that they have to be in full and continuous training starting at 2. To market them the best you can, for the most money you can ask for them, I think (from a buyer's point of view) they can have 30 - 60 days under tack; enough so that a video can be taken which will show their potential and have them move in a controlled manner. Seeing a young horse trot and canter around, at liberty, does not give a potential buyer sufficient information about what they will turn into.

    I stand by my belief that it does not take a classically trained rider to do the first 60 days of training. It takes someone who specializes in backing young horses and getting them to the point that the rider can determine the gait and the speed within each gate that will allow the horse to display its movement and willingness to take instruction from its rider.

    I distinguish "backing" a young horse from "training" a young horse. The sooner a horse can be sold, the less need a breeder will have finding a good young horse trainer (which, evidently, seems to be hard, if not impossible in the US).

    Lunging a horse can demonstrate 90% of the same thing, (attitude and movement) but how many Sellers even get to that point?

    I do not think a horse should be put in real work until their knees have closed. But that differs depending on breed and mature height. How many breeders x-ray the knees so they know when that occurs? Very few? None? Why not make decisions about starting each horse based on actual knowledge than on feelings and belief?

    After this 30 - 60 day period, if you want to, turn them back out until spring/summer of their 3 year old year before starting them in full time training. But, again, this plan treats every horse the same way, not taking into account which ones are physically and mentally ready to start earlier (or later).

    My comments come from a buyer's point of view, and are also designed to maximize your pool of buyers and the asking price. Sellers seem to find reasons why they cannot attract buyers, and seem proud of doing this as a labor of love. Then wonder why it is hard to find buyers at a price which allows them to make a profit.

    It seems to me that 1. Breeding is not often considered a business, 2. Sellers seem to look at Buyers as an impediment, instead of a partner, in helping their horses reach their potential -- whether that be as a top performance horse or as a much loved friend and partner. 3. If your goal is to sell your young horses, then that goal should take your buyers' needs and point of view in to account.
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Nov. 30, 2005
    Location
    Northfield MN
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    982

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    I don't sell foals, so my marketing plan is quite a bit different from most breeders on this forum. But I agree with both Sabino and Showjumper66.

    I don't start mine until they are at least three when they go to 30 days of bootcamp. Then they usually hang out for a few months before going to a training barn. At this point it doesn't take a long time or much (if any) "drilling" to get them to the baby green ring at four. I just haven't found that waiting to back them and having them ready for greens/ age level jumpers are mutually exclusive. They are bred for their job, it should be easy for them.



  3. #103

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    We have only had one reach saddle age on the farm. He was X-rayed to check knees before starting. And by the fall (age 3 1/2) he was able to go to his first show and had the buyer right there to watch and then try him out. They are now a happy partnership.
    The kind of buyers we like to attract, would be concerned if they saw a video of our under 3 year olds being ridden or lunged...this makes me happy. I want buyers that look for long term partners and not just a tool to win ribbons and medals. Maybe I am not like most...



  4. #104
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    IMO, the Americans made a HUGE mistake in not focusing on, and continuing to breed, the breed that we DO have generations of information on, we DO (or did) have dynasties on, we had generations of marelines to study, the Thoroughbred. IF this country had not let itself be so enamored of what the Europeans breed, because we were steadily able to beat them on OUR horses, we would today have many, many options of performance bred Thoroughbreds, still able to beat the Warmbloods, and still creating sensitive, tactful riders. But we let it all go, tried to copy what the Europeans have been doing for generations, without education or the formation of the necessary infrastructure to track the progress being made.

    We had all the makings for breeding the best athletes the world has seen (look how well we did with Army remount horses and OTTBs!) and we dropped the ball. Too bad for us.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com


    6 members found this post helpful.

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    I never said that they have to be in full and continuous training starting at 2. To market them the best you can, for the most money you can ask for them, I think (from a buyer's point of view) they can have 30 - 60 days under tack; enough so that a video can be taken which will show their potential and have them move in a controlled manner. Seeing a young horse trot and canter around, at liberty, does not give a potential buyer sufficient information about what they will turn into.

    I stand by my belief that it does not take a classically trained rider to do the first 60 days of training. It takes someone who specializes in backing young horses and getting them to the point that the rider can determine the gait and the speed within each gate that will allow the horse to display its movement and willingness to take instruction from its rider.

    I distinguish "backing" a young horse from "training" a young horse. The sooner a horse can be sold, the less need a breeder will have finding a good young horse trainer (which, evidently, seems to be hard, if not impossible in the US).

    Lunging a horse can demonstrate 90% of the same thing, (attitude and movement) but how many Sellers even get to that point?

    I do not think a horse should be put in real work until their knees have closed. But that differs depending on breed and mature height. How many breeders x-ray the knees so they know when that occurs? Very few? None? Why not make decisions about starting each horse based on actual knowledge than on feelings and belief?

    .

    After this 30 - 60 day period, if you want to, turn them back out until spring/summer of their 3 year old year before starting them in full time training. But, again, this plan treats every horse the same way, not taking into account which ones are physically and mentally ready to start earlier (or later).

    My comments come from a buyer's point of view, and are also designed to maximize your pool of buyers and the asking price. Sellers seem to find reasons why they cannot attract buyers, and seem proud of doing this as a labor of love. Then wonder why it is hard to find buyers at a price which allows them to make a profit.

    It seems to me that 1. Breeding is not often considered a business, 2. Sellers seem to look at Buyers as an impediment, instead of a partner, in helping their horses reach their potential -- whether that be as a top performance horse or as a much loved friend and partner. 3. If your goal is to sell your young horses, then that goal should take your buyers' needs and point of view in to account.
    Pam, you may not be a breeder, but you are spot on in your observations.

    It does NOT take a classily trained rider to start one AND and breed can be started exactly the same way. For those first 30-90 days, there is no specialization going on! They learn to steer, balance themselves, stop, go, speed up, slow down, do large circles and turns, and that is about it. After that period, they can go into the hands of a more specialized rider. We have the PERFECT setup here. We have a fabulous guy to start them, and when he signs off on them, our show rider, who adores the babies, takes over.


    It really isn't rocket science...
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2006
    Posts
    1,910

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    Luckily I will be able to start my own so I won't have that issue. As someone else said, the first 30 - 90 does not require a GP rider. I am expecting my first foal this year but as a buyer I would be very turned off by a 2yo under saddle, WB anyway, I understand it is the norm for stock breeds and TBs. Rather wait a little longer and not risk immature joints and an immature mind being pushed to hard, JMO.



  7. #107
    Join Date
    Dec. 19, 2005
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    Some where in the middle of nowhere.
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    3,568

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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    IMO, the Americans made a HUGE mistake in not focusing on, and continuing to breed, the breed that we DO have generations of information on, we DO (or did) have dynasties on, we had generations of marelines to study, the Thoroughbred. IF this country had not let itself be so enamored of what the Europeans breed, because we were steadily able to beat them on OUR horses, we would today have many, many options of performance bred Thoroughbreds, still able to beat the Warmbloods, and still creating sensitive, tactful riders. But we let it all go, tried to copy what the Europeans have been doing for generations, without education or the formation of the necessary infrastructure to track the progress being made.

    We had all the makings for breeding the best athletes the world has seen (look how well we did with Army remount horses and OTTBs!) and we dropped the ball. Too bad for us.
    Very astute.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  8. #108
    Join Date
    Aug. 30, 2003
    Location
    Morningside Stud, Ogonnelloe, Co. Clare, Ireland
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    1,190

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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    IMO, the Americans made a HUGE mistake in not focusing on, and continuing to breed, the breed that we DO have generations of information on, we DO (or did) have dynasties on, we had generations of marelines to study, the Thoroughbred. IF this country had not let itself be so enamored of what the Europeans breed, because we were steadily able to beat them on OUR horses, we would today have many, many options of performance bred Thoroughbreds, still able to beat the Warmbloods, and still creating sensitive, tactful riders. But we let it all go, tried to copy what the Europeans have been doing for generations, without education or the formation of the necessary infrastructure to track the progress being made.

    We had all the makings for breeding the best athletes the world has seen (look how well we did with Army remount horses and OTTBs!) and we dropped the ball. Too bad for us.
    I agree completely. It is not too late, I believe.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    Catoki does not need tall mares because his mother is small. Catoki needs tall mares (if your goal is to produce tall horses) because his damline is small.


    In my experience the size of a horse seems to be predicted more by the size of the horse's damline than by any other variable. In other words, along with athleticism and jumping ability I believe that size is strongly influenced by the damline. A breeder can use very tall stallions but if "small" (or actually, average size) is consolidated in the damline it may be a long process to reliably and predictably breed taller horses from that damline. (We will leave the effects of "regression to the mean" to another time.)

    thank you and well said...you are not breeding to a stallion,or his show record or his performance record,or his glossy stallion ad,or the sparkly dreams in your head,you are in fact, breeding to his mothers line

    Tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluehof View Post

    We need REGIONS here in the US to develop. These regions would allow folks to make a trip similar to that of Europe with convenience, would allow to have REGIONAL shows for our young horses and develop some sort of prestige to an area....similar to how Wellington developed for dressage. It is THE place to be for dressage shows 4 months of the year. We need an area(s) that is THE place to go to look for young horses.
    again well said
    tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  11. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGStables View Post
    Europe has a higher 1:1 quality ratio because they just don’t keep ones that aren’t good enough. Our culture does not support culling - if that's understood as slaughter.
    .

    and in Europe the land and resources are/is too limited to just keep giant "pets"
    many of the great horse breeding families are/were livestock men as well,
    pigs or cattle or crop land- in their mind the best are bred for as both a matter of pride and the knowledge that the worst bred have no value anyway
    Pigs,cattle,sheep,goats,horses are all seen the same

    tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  12. #112
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2000
    Posts
    9,309

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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    IMO, the Americans made a HUGE mistake in not focusing on, and continuing to breed, the breed that we DO have generations of information on, we DO (or did) have dynasties on, we had generations of marelines to study, the Thoroughbred. IF this country had not let itself be so enamored of what the Europeans breed, because we were steadily able to beat them on OUR horses, we would today have many, many options of performance bred Thoroughbreds, still able to beat the Warmbloods, and still creating sensitive, tactful riders. But we let it all go, tried to copy what the Europeans have been doing for generations, without education or the formation of the necessary infrastructure to track the progress being made.

    We had all the makings for breeding the best athletes the world has seen (look how well we did with Army remount horses and OTTBs!) and we dropped the ball. Too bad for us.
    With all due respect, those were racing dynasties, and the only stats for those "generations of marelines" were for their contribution to the race industry. There were virtually no stats for sport horses (still aren't reliable stats from our NBGs), and since the NBGs don't want to be bothered to help breeders build good sport horse breeding programs, breeders here turned to Europe. There were/are PLENTY of stats available there, but since the stats are for horses in THEIR breeding base, breeders had two choices - use horses from the European breeding base, or use TBs. And since the European horses were showing up here in greater numbers and proving to be very successful at beating our TBs - esp. in dressage and show jumping, most breeders opted to go for the purpose-bred horses.

    Yes, Army remount horses and OTTBs were successful in their day, but today's sport horse is a whole 'nuther animal. There is not enough tea in China to convince me that TBs could hold their own against today's top warmbloods in dressage and show jumping.



  13. #113
    Join Date
    May. 2, 2012
    Location
    AIKEN SC
    Posts
    243

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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    With all due respect, those were racing dynasties, and the only stats for those "generations of marelines" were for their contribution to the race industry. There were virtually no stats for sport horses (still aren't reliable stats from our NBGs), and since the NBGs don't want to be bothered to help breeders build good sport horse breeding programs, breeders here turned to Europe. There were/are PLENTY of stats available there, but since the stats are for horses in THEIR breeding base, breeders had two choices - use horses from the European breeding base, or use TBs. And since the European horses were showing up here in greater numbers and proving to be very successful at beating our TBs - esp. in dressage and show jumping, most breeders opted to go for the purpose-bred horses.

    Yes, Army remount horses and OTTBs were successful in their day, but today's sport horse is a whole 'nuther animal. There is not enough tea in China to convince me that TBs could hold their own against today's top warmbloods in dressage and show jumping.
    But that is incorrect in part.
    I have zero interest in dressage so perhaps you are correct there.

    There were horses specifically bred to be sport horses. Where do you think Good Twist and Gem Twist came from? How about the 'Murmur' horses?

    We did know quite a bit about the close relatives of horses we purchased regardless if they were off the track or purpose bred.

    I recall buying a horse in the late 70's that was sired by a horse that had produced a winning Reg Working Hunter. The sire also had a full sister that won at Piping Rock and North Shore. He was purpose bred for sport, not racing.

    The use of European imports is directly linked to the horses coming to the US ready to show. no training required all that is done in Europe.

    TB's are getting a lot of publicity these days, hope that translates to trainers actually training a horse or two instead of buying ready to show horses from Europe.
    Fan of Sea Accounts



  14. #114
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    My point was that there were well documented pedigrees that, if a cross produced a successful performance horse, the ancestry was easily searchable and other offspring accessible. We know there were several stallions who reliably produced great jumpers. I am not as familiar with the marelines, but TB lineage is SO well documented it would have been a no brainer for a real horseman to put the pieces together. We would have also retained the ability toEVALUATE OUR OWN HORSES, without importing foreign "inspectors" to tell us what to breed and not breed. That is offensive to me.

    But, since no one did this, despite the WB popularity, we have lost track of most of those bloodlines. It is just sad. And if you are foolish enough to think one of the best TBs couldn't hold his own or beat the WB of today, well, too bad for you. The WBs were not beating our TBs. Finding the good ones got harder and more expensive (BECAUSE NO ONE WAS BREEDING THEM), our riders got lazy about wanting to develop young horses, and our SYSTEM fell apart. The European option became easier, nothing more. We then CONVINCED ourselves they were better horses with nothing left to compare to.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Jun. 11, 2008
    Location
    Ontario
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    542

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    Quote Originally Posted by PINE TREE FARM SC View Post
    Where do you think Good Twist and Gem Twist came from? How about the 'Murmur' horses?

    I recall buying a horse in the late 70's that was sired by a horse that had produced a winning Reg Working Hunter. The sire also had a full sister that won at Piping Rock and North Shore. He was purpose bred for sport, not racing.
    Although Gem Twist was great in his day, I am not sure how successful any of the showjumpers from the 80s or 90's would fair around today's grand prix courses... the sport has evolved so much, as has the type of horse that is needed for the job!
    Alison/Mikali Farms
    www.mikalifarms.com


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #116
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    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Oh, bullshit! A good TB has every bit as much jumping ability as any WB. Were you even around in the TB heyday? If you had seen the good ones back then, you wouldn't say that. And producing TBs BRED for their jobs would only make them better.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com


    4 members found this post helpful.

  17. #117
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    Dec. 19, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikali View Post
    Although Gem Twist was great in his day, I am not sure how successful any of the showjumpers from the 80s or 90's would fair around today's grand prix courses... the sport has evolved so much, as has the type of horse that is needed for the job!
    Has the sport evolved or did the course designers simply start making tracks to suit the majority. As one type of horse flesh gained favor the courses changed with them.

    Nobody suddenly woke up and said "I'm going to design a huge course that favors scope over agility or speed." It was simply a tip in the scales that brought on a change in course design.

    If all the big players showed up tomorrow on speed horses and complained when nobody went clear . The day after the course would favor speed horses.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
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    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    Oh, bullshit! A good TB has every bit as much jumping ability as any WB. Were you even around in the TB heyday? If you had seen the good ones back then, you wouldn't say that. And producing TBs BRED for their jobs would only make them better.
    You tell 'em, lauriep!

    I wonder how many people today have even heard of Blue Murmur? Would they mourn the loss of his line as much as I do if they knew that his grandsire was Blue Peter, the same Blue Peter who was Ladykiller's grandsire? Sadly, there was still an intact Blue Murmur sire line sire in South Carolina only eight or ten years ago, but he vanished. His owner retired, and no one seems to have taken him up.

    Or Nancy Gosch's TB eventers in Georgia. Elisa Wallace has one of hers that she was standing.

    Although, to be honest, I've often wondered why the Chapots gave up on pure TBs. Has anyone ever asked them?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Jun. 11, 2008
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    Ontario
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    Oh, bullshit! A good TB has every bit as much jumping ability as any WB. Were you even around in the TB heyday? If you had seen the good ones back then, you wouldn't say that. And producing TBs BRED for their jobs would only make them better.
    Blast me if you wish. I may have missed the 70's, but For The Moment, Touch of Class and Gem Twist ranked highly in getting me hooked on show jumping.

    My comment was not specifically aimed at thoroughbreds - warmbloods have changed over that time too. It was meant to be all encompassing about the change with course design and jumping materials over the years. One can make the same arguement for the gradual changes in what was winning in the Dressage ring in the 80's vs today.

    Thoroughbred or warmblood - an athlete is an athlete.
    Last edited by mikali; Feb. 13, 2013 at 10:55 PM. Reason: clarity
    Alison/Mikali Farms
    www.mikalifarms.com



  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikali View Post
    Blast me if you wish. I may have missed the 70's, but For The Moment, Touch of Class and Gem Twist ranked highly in getting me hooked on show jumping.

    My comment was not specifically aimed at thoroughbreds - warmbloods have changed over that time too. It was meant to be all encompassing about the change with course design and jumping materials over the years. One can make the same arguement for the gradual changes in what was winning in the Dressage ring in the 80's vs today.

    Thoroughbred or warmblood - an athlete is an athlete.
    Perhaps what we forget is that those horses ^ were ending their careers by the mid 90's. If someone /anyone had been cultivating a TB Sport Horse breeding program starting lets say when Touch of Class made her Olympic mark 84' or even towards the end of GT's and FTM's careers the mid 90's. That was 20 years ago. Imagine how the TB sport horse might have changed /grown/evolved in all that time.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    4 members found this post helpful.

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