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  1. #1
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    Default Biggest challenge for breeders in NA?

    Would love to hear from breeders what they feel is the biggest challenge that lays before them?

    Why do you breed?

    What kind of support do you feel you need the most?

    Look forward to hearing from you.

    Cheers
    Hyperion Stud, LLC.
    Europe's Finest, Made in America
    WWW.HYPERIONSTUD.com
    Standing Elite and Approved Stallions



  2. #2
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    The biggest challenge that lies before breeders is the education that goes with breeding , i.e. Knowledge of the horses being used for breeding.

    This is the one thing that has to be improved in our culture before anything else will work consistently moving forward.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
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    I'll get this started Vicki,

    1. I breed because I am passionate about the Holsteiner horse and the community from which it comes. I love how unwaveringly athletic they are and how consistently they can be turned out for the sport of show jumping. Most importantly I feel that there aren't enough breeders in America following the pratices perfected in Holstein which have made the breed the breed that it is.

    2. I need four things:

    a) more competent riders who are trained properly and capable of realizing the potential of my horses.

    b) more schooling shows to bring up my young horses properly

    c) more domestic stallions that are approved that have enough progeny information on the ground for us to breed our mares intelligently

    d) Lastly I need a competent database which utilizes One # One Horse as its foundation to catalog pedigree's properly and records performance effectively.


    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com


    9 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    I'll get this started Vicki,

    ........

    a) more competent riders who are trained properly and capable of realizing the potential of my horses.

    b) more schooling shows to bring up my young horses properly

    c) more domestic stallions that are approved that have enough progeny information on the ground for us to breed our mares intelligently

    d) Lastly I need a competent database which utilizes One # One Horse as its foundation to catalog pedigree's properly and records performance effectively.


    Tim
    Tim has posted this so cogently that it deserves repeating....I have merely deleted the part referring to the Holsteiners as, while Tim and others have my full respect for the choices that they make within that breeding philosophy, we ourselves at Sakura Hill Farm take a more liberal approach in our breeding decisions. We do avail ourselves of the data bases the Holsteiner Verband, KWPN and Selle francais et al. have compiled and unabashedly ask our co-breeders who are well-versed in progeny for their advice and opinions.

    Our small contribution to Tim's b) is our support of and participation in the YHSs. We were also wise to have chosen the Ocala area for our breeding operation---schooling shows of all sorts abound and HITS, RMI and even WEF, not to speak of Jacksonville, Atlanta, Gulfport and Tampa are within a reasonable distance. Being able to trailer into HITS and RMI as well as the many schooling shows alleviates one of the big obstacles to deveoping youngsters, ie, the prohibitive cost of showing the young ones. However, course builders must be better educated as regards the special needs of developing young horses. These venues bring with them pros and trainers both local and imported. Finding those who are capable of and willing to take on the youngsters can be a challenge but is one that personally we fortunately have been able to solve in a variety of ways. Ingenuity is a useful commodity as is having a rider in the family who can take on the youngsters at certain stages of their careers!

    In the instance of Tim's a), it can be difficult to place the rising young stars well. So few of our amateur riders--and many pros as well--- have any concept of what it takes to take a prospect from age 4 to GP. And so few pros are willing to have their students take the time to do so. While we initially cringed at having the VDL annual sporthorse auction here in Florida, we are beginning to think that it may promote a willingness on the part of pros to buy a few prospects domestically and bring them along.

    In reference to Tim's c), we would add the willingness, indeed, the ability of domestic stallion owners to get their stallions out in competition at a level that permits comparison with European-based stallion is something that needs to be encouraged and supported.

    Tim's d) is a sine qua non.

    Even in the short six years that we have been breeding we have noted a marked improvement in the marebase as well as in the general knowledge of domestic breeders. Similarly, there has been increased awareness on the part of pros of bloodlines and availability domestically. Frankly, USEF has not been a dynamic force in this evolution and can surely play a more pro-active role in support of domestic breeders and in fostering a connection between the worlds of breeding and competition.
    Sakura Hill Farm
    Now on Facebook

    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    I'll get this started Vicki,



    2. I need four things:

    a) more competent riders who are trained properly and capable of realizing the potential of my horses.

    b) more schooling shows to bring up my young horses properly

    c) more domestic stallions that are approved that have enough progeny information on the ground for us to breed our mares intelligently

    d) Lastly I need a competent database which utilizes One # One Horse as its foundation to catalog pedigree's properly and records performance effectively.


    Tim
    This.

    I think the internet it is helping breach some of the geographical hurdles that we face in the US. It at least allows us glimpses of performance etc without having to trek 3k just to evaluate breedingstock, sales horses. It at least allows for a less travel intensive initial overview.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakura Hill Farm View Post
    Tim has posted this so cogently that it deserves repeating....I have merely deleted the part referring to the Holsteiners as, while Tim and others have my full respect for the choices that they make within that breeding philosophy, we ourselves at Sakura Hill Farm take a more liberal approach in our breeding decisions. We do avail ourselves of the data bases the Holsteiner Verband, KWPN and Selle francais et al. have compiled and unabashedly ask our co-breeders who are well-versed in progeny for their advice and opinions.

    Our small contribution to Tim's b) is our support of and participation in the YHSs. We were also wise to have chosen the Ocala area for our breeding operation---schooling shows of all sorts abound and HITS, RMI and even WEF, not to speak of Jacksonville, Gulfport and Tampa are within a reasonable distance. However, course builders must be better educated as regards the special needs of developing young horses. These venues bring with them pros and trainers both local and imported. Finding those who are capable of and willing to take on the youngsters can be a challenge but is one that personally we fortunately have been able to solve in a variety of ways. Ingenuity is a useful commodity as is having a rider in the family who can take on the youngsters at certain stages of their careers!

    In the instance of Tim's a), it can be difficult to place the rising young stars well. So few of our amateur riders--and many pros as well--- have any concept of what it takes to take a prospect from age 4 to GP. And so few pros are willing to have their students take the time to do so. While we initially cringed at having the VDL annual sporthorse auction here in Florida, we are beginning to think that it may promote a willingness on the part of pros to take on a few prospects domestically and bring them along.

    In reference to Tim's c), we would add the willingness, indeed, the ability of domestic stallion owners to get their stallions out in competition at a level that permits comparison with European-based stallion is something that needs to be encouraged and supported.

    Tim's d) is a sine qua non.

    Even in the short six years that we have been breeding we have noted a marked improvement in the marebase as well as in the general knowledge of domestic breeders. Similarly, there has been increased awareness on the part of pros of bloodlines and availability domestically. Frankly, USEF has not been a dynamic force in this evolution and can surely play a more pro-active role in support of domestic breeders and in fostering a connection between the worlds of breeding and competition.
    Michele , with all due respect......after breeding for only 6 years , you know next to nothing. Your " liberal approach" to breeding.......meaning you are using horses from all major breeds and registries even further diminishes your knowledge.

    My friend in Holstein just got a "Young Breeder" award for his successes after ONLY 25 years of breeding. Only 25 years of breeding...... "YOUNG breeder award".

    So please , before you start extracting other peoples words and trying to add your own.....you should have a little more experience yet.


    16 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
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    Reece, please do not turn this perfectly well-intentioned thread and my post into a personal attack. At no time in my post did I set myself up as an "experienced" breeder. I related our "experience" acquired over six years of breeding, ie, the daily problems and the solutions we have found. I have chosen to address the difficulties encountered in training and sales essentially and only tangentially those of breeding. We have not been functioning in a vacuum, instead drawing on the "experience" of many.

    I might add that I myself competed in hunter/jumpers as a junior in the '50s and 60's and hunted, as an eventer up to and including Prelininary as a young adult and in the '90s and on I took a child from the ponies to the East Coast USET Talent Search Finals while competing at the "A" shows in New York, Connecticut and Florida through the collegiate competitions while she was at Mount Holyoke College during which time she also competed her jumper that we had imported in 2005 up to and including Level 6 as well as started an imported youngster who now is competing GP in Wellington under a new owner, sent her to train with an Olympian in Europe who chooses and brings along young horses and now as a young adult, she is training and competing jumpers essentially with a few hunters in the mix.

    Frankly, this is "experience" that is invaluable to me in breeding and one that seems to have been something of a rare commodity in the domestic breeding world- at least until recently and in the discussions on this BB.

    I will attribute your admonition to a misunderstanding of the several meanings and usages of the word "experience". In point of fact, I did not even use the word in my post, not in reference to ourselves or to others.
    Last edited by Sakura Hill Farm; Feb. 13, 2013 at 06:38 PM. Reason: completion
    Sakura Hill Farm
    Now on Facebook

    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakura Hill Farm View Post
    Reece, please do not turn this perfectly well-intentioned thread and my post into a personal attack. At no time in my post did I set myself up as an "experienced" breeder. I related our "experience" acquired over six years of breeding, ie, the daily problems, solutions. We have not been functioning in a vacuum, drawing on the "experience" of many.

    I will attribute your admonishment to a misunderstanding of the several meanings and usages of the word "experience". In point of fact, I did not even use the word in my post, not in reference to ourselves nor others.
    "Personal attack" ? Really Michele ? How is it that anytime someone dis-agrees with someone else it is labeled a personal attack ?

    Just stating facts as compared to my post above that relayed we should know more about the horses we are breeding with.

    Tim followed that up with relaying his experiences involving the HOLSTEINER horses which you abruptly saw fit to remove from your response. Your response is a prime example of what I was referring to. You know next to nothing about the horses you are breeding with. How can you ? You've only been breeding for 6 years and with many different breeds. You can't possibly have a real knowledge of all blood and motherlines !

    A little less pretentious and a little more humility will only serve growth.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayhawk View Post
    Michele , with all due respect......after breeding for only 6 years , you know next to nothing. Your " liberal approach" to breeding.......meaning you are using horses from all major breeds and registries even further diminishes your knowledge.

    My friend in Holstein just got a "Young Breeder" award for his successes after ONLY 25 years of breeding. Only 25 years of breeding...... "YOUNG breeder award".

    So please , before you start extracting other peoples words and trying to add your own.....you should have a little more experience yet.
    Does this ^^ have anything to do with the OP's topic ? If not it was just personal sentiment better kept personal. Sorry Reece you are a priceless wealth of Holst knowledge but your interpersonal diplomacy could use more work.

    So to get back on topic ?

    Would love to hear from breeders what they feel is the biggest challenge that lays before them?

    Why do you breed?

    What kind of support do you feel you need the most?

    Look forward to hearing from you.

    Cheers
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    8 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnwood View Post
    Does this ^^ have anything to do with the OP's topic ? If not it was just personal sentiment better kept personal. Sorry Reece you are a priceless wealth of Holst knowledge but your diplomacy could use more work.

    So to get back on topic Reece ?
    "The biggest challenge that lies before them" . It was completely relevant to my response about knowing horses that you breed with. How many times must one point this out ?

    My diplomacy skills could maybe use some work in the event I were choosing to be diplomatic.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayhawk View Post
    "The biggest challenge that lies before them" . It was completely relevant to my response about knowing horses that you breed with. How many times must one point this out ?

    My diplomacy skills could maybe use some work in the event I were choosing to be diplomatic.
    It is relevant Reece. So a question for you/anyone else really.
    Should/do you breed for a discipline or for a registry or homogenize and breed a registry for a discipline ?

    For those that breed for a discipline rather then registry or vice versa how does that affect their path of progression.

    Is that perhaps a problem plaguing the US's breeding endeavors.

    To many breeding for a registry or conversely to many breeding for a discipline and not using the confines of one particular registry.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnwood View Post
    It is relevant Reece. So a question for you/anyone else really.
    Should/do you breed for a discipline or for a registry or homogenize and breed a registry for a discipline ?

    For those that breed for a discipline rather then registry or vice versa how does that affect their path of progression.

    Is that perhaps a problem plaguing the US's breeding endeavors.

    To many breeding for a registry or conversely to many breeding for a discipline and not using the confines of one particular registry.
    It goes directly back to my first response to Hyperion. You must know the horses you are breeding with and become better producers (breeders) before any of the rest of this matters IMHO.

    The Catoki thread is a prime example. It came out that he needed a big mare. The questions were....what kind ? why ? etc. etc. THEN.........a knowledgeable poster published a photo and height of his mother. THIS ! This is how you change the culture here. Info about the family. Now it is absolutely known why Catoki needs a big mare.

    This is NOT registry or breed dependent. This application can and should be applied to all breeding for which ever discipline is chosen. It doesn't matter if you have a Holsteiner mare ,Hann. mare , Dutch mare , SF mare or any combination thereof. The application is the same.


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  13. #13

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    Sorry I opened this post...thought it was going to be educational...I should have known better.


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayhawk View Post
    The Catoki thread is a prime example. ... Now it is absolutely known why Catoki needs a big mare.

    ....
    Rubbish.
    Absolute nonsense. Genetics selects randomly during its next production, no matter how carefully we try to control it.

    Mare #1: 15.3hh -16hh. Her sire is tall (17hh) but her dam isn't, although her dam's sire is also tall. Mare 1 produced a huge (first) foal and a moderately tall (16.1-2hh?) second one by 2 x different stallions, both moderately different heights/pedigree (16.2-17.1hh).

    Mare # 2: o/o a 17.2hh stallion and a 16.1h mare lineage. She's scarecely over 16.1 herself and produced a HUGE colt (17.2hh+ as a 3yo) from a 17hh stallion. I don't know what size her other 3 x foals turned out to be.
    GreenGate Stables
    http://ggstables.webs.com/



  15. #15
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGStables View Post
    Rubbish.
    Absolute nonsense. Genetics selects randomly during its next production, no matter how carefully we try to control it.

    Mare #1: 15.3hh -16hh. Her sire is tall (17hh) but her dam isn't, although her dam's sire is also tall. Mare 1 produced a huge (first) foal and a moderately tall (16.1-2hh?) second one by 2 x different stallions, both moderately different heights/pedigree (16.2-17.1hh).

    Mare # 2: o/o a 17.2hh stallion and a 16.1h mare lineage. She's scarecely over 16.1 herself and produced a HUGE colt (17.2hh+ as a 3yo) from a 17hh stallion. I don't know what size her other 3 x foals turned out to be.
    I dont think they would keep a mare in their program that was giving such huge variations each foal which I think is the point of culling.

    I agree that intimate knowledge of the lines you use does require less jumping about registry wise.

    I think its rare here in the US that someone not only takes pride in their registry but also stays with the generations to be able to predict more about the produced foals. I know they can be a little thorny and tunnel vision but I enjoy someone who brings breeding to such an art.
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/


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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGStables View Post
    Rubbish.
    Absolute nonsense. Genetics selects randomly during its next production, no matter how carefully we try to control it.

    Mare #1: 15.3hh -16hh. Her sire is tall (17hh) but her dam isn't, although her dam's sire is also tall. Mare 1 produced a huge (first) foal and a moderately tall (16.1-2hh?) second one by 2 x different stallions, both moderately different heights/pedigree (16.2-17.1hh).

    Mare # 2: o/o a 17.2hh stallion and a 16.1h mare lineage. She's scarecely over 16.1 herself and produced a HUGE colt (17.2hh+ as a 3yo) from a 17hh stallion. I don't know what size her other 3 x foals turned out to be.
    Rubbish is right and you make my point. Typical North American breeder making assumptions from a very small sampling. Your sample is what is rubbish. You haven't enough numbers to even make a productive determination whereas the Europeans all tell you that Catoki needs a big mare due to his mothers small stature. They have seen enough small foals. I have seen many small foals from Catoki and their small to medium sized mothers.


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  18. #18
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    Catoki does not need tall mares because his mother is small. Catoki needs tall mares (if your goal is to produce tall horses) because his damline is small.

    Catoki needs tall mares because the long-run "normal" size of sport horses for the last 50-60 years is consolidated in Catoki's damline. What I mean by this is that 16 hands = 1.625 m is probably the "normal" or average or mean size of sport horses for the last 50 - 60 years, +/- 3 cm. And this is the expected size of mares in Catoki's damline. We see smaller horses all the time and we see larger horses all the time, but the mean in the population of sport horses is probably about 16 hands; this also appears to be the mean size of Catoki's direct damline. With studbook stallion inspection committees and breeders almost always preferring "bigger" stallions -- 169 cm and bigger -- over smaller stallions we may see the average size of sport horses increase in size in the next 50 years. But this will be a slow process of change.

    Why? Because by definition the mean size of about 16 hands is consolidated in the damline of the majority of breeding mares.

    If the data in horsetelex are correct, here are the sizes of the mares in Catoki's damline, starting with his dam Bilda:


    Bilda 1.63 m

    Vordula 1.69 m

    Limburg 1.63 m

    Gilda 1.60 m

    Oldmarie 1.63 m


    (horsetelex does not report the size of Bilda's other progeny, and especially the daughters and grand-daughters. That's a shame because it would be interesting to look at that data to "test" my theory.)

    Bilda is the product of Silvester (1.73 m) bred to Vordula (1.69 m). If you look at the mares in Catoki's damline Vordula was a "freak" -- a tall mare. But we see that the direct damline immediately reverted to the expected size of 1.63

    If a photo of Vordula had been shown and you were told Vordula had been bred to Silvester, and that was all the information you had, you probably would predict a 1.70 m daughter named Bilda (+/- 2 or 3 cm). But if you were also given the list of mares in the Bilda's damline and their sizes I do not think many of you would predict that Bilda would grow to 1.70 m +/- 2 or 3 cm. So a photo of the mother is only one piece of the puzzle. The sizes of the mares in the damline is what is most important.

    In my experience the size of a horse seems to be predicted more by the size of the horse's damline than by any other variable. In other words, along with athleticism and jumping ability I believe that size is strongly influenced by the damline. A breeder can use very tall stallions but if "small" (or actually, average size) is consolidated in the damline it may be a long process to reliably and predictably breed taller horses from that damline. (We will leave the effects of "regression to the mean" to another time.)


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  19. #19
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    I think each breeder has his or her own specific challenges. If there was an overarching challenge then it has to be one of size (of the US. Which seems pretty permanent) which impacts my breeding decisions from the word go.

    Why do I breed? Fame, glory, riches etc etc. Joke. I breed because the addictive experience of breeding, raising, breaking, and riding the result of my choices, hunches and research can't be beat. It's transcendent.

    What kind of support do you feel you need the most? I'd like my chosen Registry to be more open? comunicative? in touch with the troops on the ground?


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by HyperionStudLLC View Post
    Would love to hear from breeders what they feel is the biggest challenge that lays before them?

    Why do you breed?

    What kind of support do you feel you need the most?

    Look forward to hearing from you.

    Cheers
    I think a big challenge for like the Baroque breeders, for example, is the trends they face. I noticed a large movement away from the traditional Andalusian movement (which is dare I say, almost gaited) to trying to achieve warmblood like movements, breeding for height and almost losing the Baroque identity. Luckily some people, much like the Foundation QH people haven't swayed from the original ideals of the Andys. And therein lies the problem with breeding for trendy, the mob is fickle.
    I LOVE my Chickens!



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