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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    Yes...she could have worded it better. Even a "despite common, and often unfounded, stereotypes of TBs being hot and crazy, RJ was not....
    This was my feeling as well. There are SO many quiet OTTBs, they're hardly a rarity! Lord knows, I have a barn full of them, and I couldn't ask for a better group of horses. Such good brains. Love 'em!
    Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch
    www.DifferentTimesEquestrianVentures.com


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
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    Jun. 20, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    If it's part of the job description, it isn't wrong at all. The individual applying or taking the job has the ability to accept or decline the position based on the requirements and benefits of it. Just because a job has possibly dangerous duties does not make it wrong to expect the individual to perform those duties.

    The issue of Workers' Compensation coverage is a different matter.
    So much for the argument that a Working Student is a STUDENT and not an employee.



  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    This was my feeling as well. There are SO many quiet OTTBs, they're hardly a rarity! Lord knows, I have a barn full of them, and I couldn't ask for a better group of horses. Such good brains. Love 'em!
    Have know both super quiet and not so quiet. Not unlike any other breed.

    But this article is likely condensed from an interview, and reporters are known for picking out the 'livelier' bits from a conversation. Who knows what the interviewee actually said vs the impression you might get from any news article.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    In general, not commenting on any particular program, whether the program is so 'tippy-tippiest' or not, help/WS should be covered for injuries on the job. Using someone as a crash test dummy for one ride, while they are not covered by even Workmen's Compensation, is just wrong.
    Have you actually made any inquires as to what type of coverage is or is not provided to the WS in question? At least confirm whether or not your suspicions are true before you start calling the described behavior "just wrong."


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
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    Apr. 2, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post

    And I'm not going to waste 2 seconds debating the "but they are STUDENTS who are there to learn" bullshit. Because it is bullshit. Yard and Groom and CL are loaded with ads for WS because horse business owners want free help. NOT because they are so all fired hot for the idea of educating.
    So what if they do it for their benefit, as long as the WS gets something out of it? I understand the certain places take advantage and use it as free labor but that is not every place. I pay for college which benefits the school but that doesn't preclude them actually caring if I learn something. I rode a bunch of horses for a sales barn for free. They got a free exercise rider and I got free saddle time - I know they didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts but it benefitted everyone.
    Currently blogging for Chronicle of the Horse. Articles can be found here: http://www.chronofhorse.com/category...ryan-lefkowitz



  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    Have you actually made any inquires as to what type of coverage is or is not provided to the WS in question? At least confirm whether or not your suspicions are true before you start calling the described behavior "just wrong."
    Once again cupcake,I am not interested in attacking the folks in the article directly. And I know that a reporters accounting can vary widely from what someone may have actually said.

    IN GENERAL this article provides a good example to eager folks looking to get into the business.

    Perhaps you are unaware this has been a topic discussed over, and over on this board?

    And it is best to NOT make these things personal. Or specific.

    IN GENERAL working student positions are unpaid labor, often dangerous, which employers use to circumvent laws. And it is wrong.



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Once again cupcake,I am not interested in attacking the folks in the article directly. And I know that a reporters accounting can vary widely from what someone may have actually said.

    IN GENERAL this article provides a good example to eager folks looking to get into the business.

    Perhaps you are unaware this has been a topic discussed over, and over on this board?

    And it is best to NOT make these things personal. Or specific.

    IN GENERAL working student positions are unpaid labor, often dangerous, which employers use to circumvent laws. And it is wrong.
    So then start a general thread, instead of limiting your scope to responding to a specific program.

    Really no need to get into 'cupcake' sarcasm and the like.

    And yes I am well aware that you have discussed this over and over and over on this board.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    So much for the argument that a Working Student is a STUDENT and not an employee.
    Its an apprenticeship. You are employed and earning an education instead of a wage.
    Currently blogging for Chronicle of the Horse. Articles can be found here: http://www.chronofhorse.com/category...ryan-lefkowitz



  9. #49
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    Jan. 27, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    So much for the argument that a Working Student is a STUDENT and not an employee.
    Any type of position, be it internship or paid job, should have a job description...you know...so people understand what they are suppose to do. Classes have syllabuses, internships and jobs have job description.

    I can see this is a hot topic for you. That's fine. I'm not saying anything towards the legality of unpaid WS positions that do not follow FLSA rules. Even for those that are not following applicable FLSA rules or providing required coverages, It still doesn't mean it's wrong for those WS's to be required to participate in dangerous activities. It just means they are wrong for not following the laws regarding that position.

    Also, there are plenty of WS positions, that do follow the applicable laws.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rel6 View Post
    Its an apprenticeship. You are employed and earning an education instead of a wage.
    It most cases, you cannot participate in an unpaid internship, even if you are receiving an education. It's been discussed before (and recently) but the employer cannot be gaining any benefit from having the intern, nor can an intern do anything that the employer would have to pay another person to do...plus a few other things.

    That said, most WS's positions aren't unpaid. They are just very poorly paid.
    Last edited by RugBug; Feb. 8, 2013 at 05:39 PM.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    "As soon as his 30 days were up, I turned to our working student Luke Olsen and said, “OK, you’re getting on!”......"I rode him the next day and he was quiet and easy from the start."

    Next time someone starts a thread asking about WS positions, 'making it' in the industry, etc. I shall refer them to this.
    Uh, yeah, because the working student should be riding all the 6-figure and up horses in the barn, and the head rider/BNT who makes their living (and pays salaries/etc) by being one of the best in the business should be hopping on all the green/unbroke/unknown horses.

    It's no different in horses than in business. You pay your dues, do the shitwork well and with a smile on your face, and you earn opportunities for better work and recognition.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #52
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    Feb. 18, 2001
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    Can you guys move on to another thread? I was just enjoying people complementing a lovely horse.


    12 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    It most cases, you cannot participate in an unpaid internship, even if you are receiving an education. It's been discussed before (and recently) but the employer cannot be gaining any benefit from having the intern, nor can an intern do anything that the employer would have to pay another person to do...plus a few other things.

    That said, most WS's positions aren't unpaid. They are just very poorly paid.
    Interesting, that does make sense. Any yes, sorry for derailing the thread. Anyway I enjoyed the article and always get very excited when I see "OTTB" in the subject line under "most popular"!
    Currently blogging for Chronicle of the Horse. Articles can be found here: http://www.chronofhorse.com/category...ryan-lefkowitz



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    Can you guys move on to another thread? I was just enjoying people complementing a lovely horse.
    Agreed! And it was a very lovely looking horse. I love a classy looking bay.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #55
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    Jan. 21, 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucassb View Post
    I sure wish that people who write about their nice TBs would do it without feeling the need to put the WBs down.

    I've had lovely TBs, and some that were tough. I've had lovely WBs, and some that were tough. I don't think their aptitude for training was somehow intrinsically linked to what breed they were. I currently have a TB who is an (aging) rockstar and a WB who is similarly fabulous. Both good athletes with super brains.

    A nice horse is a nice horse.
    Agreed.

    This board is almost backward-elitist toward the Thoroughbred. Yeah, I get it, TBs can be great, TBs get incentive programs, TBs need homes because they failed at the track, TBs aren't crazy, TBs are better than Warmbloods, TBs are smarter, TBs are the bestest ever, my TB is just ALWAYS mistaken for a Warmblood which I just find so highly offensive, TB TB TB. Did we mention TB!?

    It's enough to drive some people AWAY from the TB...

    Why can't a good horse just be a good horse and leave it at that?


    6 members found this post helpful.

  16. #56
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    Mar. 28, 2006
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    It would be great if people focused on the positive aspects in this article. It's so good for the breed that Jen is trying out a couple tbs in her top show program. If it makes even one or two people want to go to the backside, save a life, and send it it a trainer to see what it can do....it's a good thing.

    As far as Luke goes, I believe he is employed by SBS. And I know his safety is very important to Susie and Jen. He's far from a crash test dummy and can stick on better than most people. He's soft yet strong. It wasn't a careless situation at all. There are plenty of "working students" out there that don't really belong on a green horse or a horse with unknown behavior. But this is definetely not the case. It's still a barn full of HORSEMEN - on and off the ground.



  17. #57
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    Jul. 19, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    My 'favorite' parts of the article.

    "As soon as his 30 days were up, I turned to our working student Luke Olsen and said, “OK, you’re getting on!”......"I rode him the next day and he was quiet and easy from the start."

    Next time someone starts a thread asking about WS positions, 'making it' in the industry, etc. I shall refer them to this.
    I got thrown on everything that came in the barn the first ride. From OTTBs, to new imports, to the odd little projects we picked up along the way. That was my job, and I gladly accepted it. Did I get unloaded occasionally? Sure as hell did (the worst was when I got the privilege of climbing on my boss' new advanced horse, who promptly unloaded me TWICE within about 2 minutes)! But it taught me to quickly read a new horse, to sit chilly, stay quiet, and STICK. An education I would not have otherwise gained if I was only riding my quiet horse or the quiet project I had been given.

    As for the article....I'm glad to see it. And, really, I do think TBs are, typically, a little brainier than WBs. Sometimes to my detriment (evil geniuses). Sure, I've met dumb TBs and brilliant WBs, but MOST of the TBs I handle are quick thinkers and learners with big work ethics. Can't say the same of the WBs.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  18. #58
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    Jan. 6, 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caravale View Post
    Agreed.

    This board is almost backward-elitist toward the Thoroughbred. Yeah, I get it, TBs can be great, TBs get incentive programs, TBs need homes because they failed at the track, TBs aren't crazy, TBs are better than Warmbloods, TBs are smarter, TBs are the bestest ever, my TB is just ALWAYS mistaken for a Warmblood which I just find so highly offensive, TB TB TB. Did we mention TB!?

    It's enough to drive some people AWAY from the TB...

    Why can't a good horse just be a good horse and leave it at that?
    Personally, I love TB's. Mainly because I got started in horses because of horse racing. However, I've met some TB's that are not very bright, and some that are very intelligent. We have a dapple grey OTTB mare in my barn right now, she is not the brightest bulb in the world. She tends to act purely on her instincts, which usually results in her running off on her young new rider. Thankfully our trainer is working with her every time she rides the mare, and she's coming along now in her re-training.

    Then we have another bay OTTB gelding that is very smart, and he regularly plays with an equally intelligent Hanoverian gelding. They get along quite well together. It's really all about the individual, not the breed or the even the bloodlines, though they do account for some of the equation. We have a bay Hungarian WB mare that is waaaayyyy too intelligent for her own good. And she tends to us that against you. LOL.
    "One reason why horses are happy is because they are not trying to impress other horses."
    "Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction"



  19. #59
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    Jun. 25, 2006
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    MA
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    Cool

    If I could afford a 2nd horse would love to get a TB! Tose TIP shows
    / classes are fun and I think any effort to remind people that TBs are great horses is a positive thing. I think the horse in the article is lovely and look forward to following his career. I think while I am snowed in I'll peruse me some canter horses



  20. #60
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    Sep. 24, 2006
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    While I loved this article, I have to admit a few comments had me thinking "Oh come on...seriously?!"...the OTTB stereotypes are killing me in this article! The PRO had the working student get on first, why?...Oh because he's off the track so he must be crazy...I'll let you be the test dummy!
    Then has a blood workup done....why?! "He's just WAY TOO QUIET for a OTTB, he must not be feeling well!"

    Anyone who is astonished that OTTBs take so well to being clipped, bathed, groomed, mane pulled, etc clearly has no idea what a typical day at the track is like for these horses.

    Anywho...props to a BNR/BNT for giving a OTTB a try and here's to hoping more of them will jump on the 'band wagon'!



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