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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    In the US the bigotry is religion based - or at least strongly supported by various and numerous denominations. the 'Adam & Steve' line is a favorite of many a preacher.

    And as far as I heard telling, 11 year olds know pretty well who they like.
    I think the only 'confusion' stems from the fact that what they feel is not the way they are told they are supposed to feel.
    Agree completely with your 2nd paragraph. I guess I just meant that I don't understand in practice how it works, since fewer kids are openly gay in elementary school (not because they don't know who they are, just because nobody has declared much interest in anyone yet). Does the organization itself speculate, or does it just kick out scouts that come out?



  2. #82
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    There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. First, the boy scout leader cannot require scouts to attend church services or any kind. That is not legal in the rules of the Boy Scouts. No one has to be of any religion, but one does have to believe in God which seems to include gods. My own eagle scout sons are members of an obscure religion and it just required a short letter about the religion and their relationship to that religion for the Eagle application. I've been an adult leader for a lot of merit badges, and no one has ever asked if I have any religious affiliation whatsoever. The troops that I've been involved with for the most part went wtih a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, but one of our friends became openly gay shortly before he got his eagle and became an adult leader - in a troop that my son didn't join because the leader said that mothers weren't as welcome to do things with the boys. We didn't like that so our older son went with a great, very active troop that did really, really cool stuff. My younger son went with a different troop and there was a guy that was probably gay in that troop, but no gay leaders.
    I have a daughter too, and to compare the Girl Scouts with the Boy Scouts is ridiculous. I have wanted the Boy Scouts to have a girl division that is set up like the Boy Scouts, but for girls. I think the Boy Scouts defers to the very inferior Girl Scouts to the detriment of our young women.

    The politics around all of this is to promote an agenda. I like gays and have had a closer relationship with the gay community than probably any other person on this board, but I do not like agendas. I do not like gays who "out" other gays who want to keep their private lives private, for example. Anyone who uses the term "homophobic" should be ashamed, as it is derogatory to both gays and non-gays and is making a false accusation. It's the worst epithet and if you use it, you are revealing a lot about yourself - none of it positive.

    It's my understanding that when the Boy Scouts in England gave in to the gay rights groups, the organization was virtually destroyed. I learned about this when my niece's boy friend's son was going for his Duke of Edinburg Award instead of his Boy Scout Eagle (I don't know what they called Eagle there - maybe President's ).

    Oh, and our scouts do, in fact, use military facilities.

    Oh, and the activist kid who was denied his eagle, wasn't denied his eagle because he was gay - ya'll need to go back and read that.



  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beam Me Up View Post
    Agree completely with your 2nd paragraph. I guess I just meant that I don't understand in practice how it works, since fewer kids are openly gay in elementary school (not because they don't know who they are, just because nobody has declared much interest in anyone yet). Does the organization itself speculate, or does it just kick out scouts that come out?
    well, I suppose yeah, you come out you petty much sealed the deal.

    Time they revisit their own values though...A scout is supposed to be truthful....
    Not to mention that making out and such is not condoned at scouts, no matter who is doing it....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyoteco View Post
    There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. First, the boy scout leader cannot require scouts to attend church services or any kind. That is not legal in the rules of the Boy Scouts. No one has to be of any religion, but one does have to believe in God which seems to include gods. My own eagle scout sons are members of an obscure religion and it just required a short letter about the religion and their relationship to that religion for the Eagle application. I've been an adult leader for a lot of merit badges, and no one has ever asked if I have any religious affiliation whatsoever. The troops that I've been involved with for the most part went wtih a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, but one of our friends became openly gay shortly before he got his eagle and became an adult leader - in a troop that my son didn't join because the leader said that mothers weren't as welcome to do things with the boys. We didn't like that so our older son went with a great, very active troop that did really, really cool stuff. My younger son went with a different troop and there was a guy that was probably gay in that troop, but no gay leaders.
    I have a daughter too, and to compare the Girl Scouts with the Boy Scouts is ridiculous. I have wanted the Boy Scouts to have a girl division that is set up like the Boy Scouts, but for girls. I think the Boy Scouts defers to the very inferior Girl Scouts to the detriment of our young women.

    The politics around all of this is to promote an agenda. I like gays and have had a closer relationship with the gay community than probably any other person on this board, but I do not like agendas. I do not like gays who "out" other gays who want to keep their private lives private, for example. Anyone who uses the term "homophobic" should be ashamed, as it is derogatory to both gays and non-gays and is making a false accusation. It's the worst epithet and if you use it, you are revealing a lot about yourself - none of it positive.

    It's my understanding that when the Boy Scouts in England gave in to the gay rights groups, the organization was virtually destroyed. I learned about this when my niece's boy friend's son was going for his Duke of Edinburg Award instead of his Boy Scout Eagle (I don't know what they called Eagle there - maybe President's ).

    Oh, and our scouts do, in fact, use military facilities.

    Oh, and the activist kid who was denied his eagle, wasn't denied his eagle because he was gay - ya'll need to go back and read that.

    I agree with you.

    However homophobic - I don't see how it is derogatory when it does aptly describe the situation in many people.
    The point is, it should not be an issue at all.

    And I do agree from my very limited experience with the girl scouts that the program is not as strong as the counterpart.

    But I guess, if you have strong leaders it can be better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  5. #85
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    I always thought that the scouts were in favor of teaching teamwork, compassion, and doing good. Apparently, they only want that for kids and adults that feel the way the scouts do, and don't care about other people because their religious beliefs, gender or sexual identities, and care about that more than helping children grow up to be nice people. The truth is that the BSA as a private organization have the right to discriminate, and do. They also have no right because of their policies to public funds, or to be treated differently than any other restrictive organization. I will never buy another item from Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts, and that's even if they change their policies. I doubt that even a policy change would really be for the right reason, and that they want to be more inclusive. I think if they change the policies it will be superficial, and only to get more donations, and try to get access back to meeting places, and special help from organizations that used to help them.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White


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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanM View Post
    I always thought that the scouts were in favor of teaching teamwork, compassion, and doing good. Apparently, they only want that for kids and adults that feel the way the scouts do, and don't care about other people because their religious beliefs, gender or sexual identities, and care about that more than helping children grow up to be nice people. The truth is that the BSA as a private organization have the right to discriminate, and do. They also have no right because of their policies to public funds, or to be treated differently than any other restrictive organization. I will never buy another item from Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts, and that's even if they change their policies. I doubt that even a policy change would really be for the right reason, and that they want to be more inclusive. I think if they change the policies it will be superficial, and only to get more donations, and try to get access back to meeting places, and special help from organizations that used to help them.
    well, churches are supposed to teach about love, too, no....

    But when ever we talk about churches we get the 'my church isn't like this and you are just hating'

    Yes, the principle of scouts is to be a team player, do what's right and be honest and caring for other people.

    then we are stuck with the humans around us to hold up those lofty ideals.

    It might be also a problem that LDS has made it mandatory for boys as well as leaders to do a hitch in scouts.
    I have been told that summer camp staff is ALWAYS happy to see them leave...and they seem to get the last dates at camp too, so there are no other campers who have to deal with what they left behind. Hearsay...it might not be accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beam Me Up View Post
    Does the organization itself speculate, or does it just kick out scouts that come out?
    I think they wait until all the requirements of eagle scout have been met and then say "you are not worthy".
    A man must love a thing very much if he not only practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practices it without any hope of doing it well.--G. K. Chesterton


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  8. #88
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    It's my understanding that when the Boy Scouts in England gave in to the gay rights groups, the organization was virtually destroyed. I learned about this when my niece's boy friend's son was going for his Duke of Edinburg Award instead of his Boy Scout Eagle (I don't know what they called Eagle there - maybe President's ).

    ____________________________________
    My husband's cousin' hairdresser's brother's cousin told me all Eagle Scouts are poopy heads. You sound like a 12 year old.

    As far as the gay activist denied his Eagle. If his story is untrue please explain why Eagle Scouts sent them their pins in a show of solidarity. He was also on Ellen.

    You are a homophobe whether you think you are or not.

    And just what is the big deal about being an Eagle Scout? Most young men totally lose interest in such a close minded organization by the time they are 14. The only ones left around all become Eagle Scouts from what I have seen. Three of them in our neighborhood cleared a 10 foot path of brush and voila!! Eagle Scout. Big whoop.


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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpnow View Post
    And just what is the big deal about being an Eagle Scout? Most young men totally lose interest in such a close minded organization by the time they are 14. The only ones left around all become Eagle Scouts from what I have seen. Three of them in our neighborhood cleared a 10 foot path of brush and voila!! Eagle Scout. Big whoop.
    well, I ma sure some are created more Eagle than others, but no, I can assure you, cleaning the foot path was not all that went into the Eagle rank
    That was only the final project. A couple of boys in our group painted a soupk kitchen, some COTHer's son build a ramp for the therapeutic riding center in their town. Those projects don't have to be huge, but beneficial to the community.

    Before that they have to learn and earn badges, some required, some optional.
    To the required (I think 11 have to check though) subjects belong matters like citizenship, on local, national and global level, as well as first aid, disaster preparedness and I do believe 'personal management' which is meant to teach the scout accountability and responsibillity in personal matters.

    That is generally not something you do in one afternoon raking leaves. It takes generally 2 or more years to complete, so perseverance is also part in it.

    Big whoop, since things like personal fitness are also considered important, camping and cooking are high on the priority list, an Eagle Scout enlisting in the military will (so the guys tell me) receive an automatic bump in rank.

    The troops are led by the boys. They do vote on positions and through peer pressure get results. The Adult leaders suggest and keep things on a safe level.
    So the boys learn how to organize events or present ideas in front of an audience. (presentation is part of at least one badge requirement) It gives you a step up in public speaking.
    The scouts have to learn to communicate their grievances. 'Authority' goes to a young head, the others will complain and keep the head from reaching for the stars.

    Eagle Scouts in general have acquired skills and qualities that are still sought after in the work force and leadership positions.

    Although I have found the statement of 'I have never met a sorry Eagle Scout' has since been amended in my experience, the benefits are great for the semi motivated kid.
    And even if they are not all that, they still profit.

    BTW, the boys don't join an 'organization' they join a troop. Whatever experience they get from that depends on the people in that group, boys and parents alike.
    The 'Organization' is the head ache the adults have to deal with....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  10. #90
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    I see, so it was the "organization" that was covering up all the child abuse?


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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpnow View Post
    I see, so it was the "organization" that was covering up all the child abuse?
    Probably a mix of both.
    It's the human nature that we can't believe this pillar of the community is up to no good. MO for the predator.

    Just look at the Pen State thing...the church, well, a bit different...

    it's the 'look at the man, he sacrifices all the time for the boys'
    as long as your facade is respectable, you can get away with so much evil...

    So yeah, on the base level as well as the top level, nobody is clean.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  12. #92
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    I was very hesitant to open up this thread. Gotta say, I think MOST of the COTHers posting here make me proud!
    What's wrong with you?? Your cheese done slid off its cracker?!?!


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  13. #93
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    It's pretty clear that the most recent example of a scout not getting his Eagle was because he was gay. Don't know what other case you are referring to, but there's no question about this one.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/08/us/cal...ay-eagle-scout

    And the original suit that brought all of this to the fore in the 90s is also clearly because the scout leader was gay:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Sco...merica_v._Dale

    From personal experience, many gay scouts make it all the way through Eagle because they don't come out until they have graduated from high school. So it never becomes an issue because people don't know at the time they are in scouts. Or people just don't care - the attitude of a lot of local troops is that it just isn't any of their business. That was certainly true of our troop. Same for atheists - if one of my scouts had come to me and told me that he was an atheist, I would not, no matter what HQ said, oust him from the troop.

    Making Eagle is only easy if the adult troop leadership is lax about merit badge and project requirements. Some are - most are not. I am a pretty easy going person, but when I taught Personal Management and Family Life, two Eagle required merit badges, I was very clear with the young men that they themselves, not their parents, had to do the work or I would not approve them for the merit badge. Most of them were on board with this. I could almost always tell who was going to make Eagle on their own and who was not.

    It's a great program for young men. It's a damn shame that they've boxed themselves in like this.


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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimpsoMatt View Post
    What's the difference?
    Religion is something people practice for various reasons. The religious leaders in the time of Jesus practiced all the laws and were quite proud of being so moral and upstanding because of it. They completely denied who Jesus was and that He was the only way of salvation, despite the fact that the bible they claimed to know, teach and follow pointed to Him as the promised messiah. They believed their outward appearance to perfectly uphold the laws were enough to grant them salvation. Jesus called them " white washed tombs" Looking clean and respectable on the outside, but dead in their sins on the inside.

    The practice of any religion that is based on any other foundation for salvation then the blood of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross, His death, burial and resurrection is flawed and deceptive. Salvation is- God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. There is only one way, not many.

    A true believer will be a changed person from the inside out and it is a change that only God can do and it is over a lifetime.


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  15. #95
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    Candyappy, sounds like a cult, not a religion.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by PonyPeep View Post
    As a 15 year old girl with 3 gay and 1 lesbian friend, a few responses here from certain people make me sick. Although most of the responses make me want to give COTH a big hug.

    Homosexuality is NOT a choice. It is how you are BORN. One of my best friends is gay and he said he has known he was gay since before he knew what the word "gay" meant, he just had to listen to the other 4th graders calling him a faggot because he said he had a crush on one of his classmates. Yes, he has a few straight crushes. No, he will not infect you. And as one of his best friends I can testify that I have had a lot of exposure to gays and am still very straight. ;

    Prove to me there is a gay gene. How about a pedophile gene. A school shooter gene. A woman who prefers to sleep with her young male students gene. A fat gene . A alcoholic gene. A drug addiction gene?

    You can't because there isn't one. This is what happens to a culture that is self obsessed with every carnal thing there is. Everything goes, if it feels good to you then do it. We are given to indulge in anything we choose and the more you indulge the deeper you go. As a country you can see how far we have gone. We as a country have no moral standard. This is what happens when you take God out of it.


    These are all choices people make. Some are influenced by the culture they live in, family life, what they were exposed to. Some are just at a weak time in life and susceptible to whatever they encounter at the time. I have a friend who has a sister who was in an awful and abusive marriage. She left him and my friend said that she was now gay. When she was married she was slim, feminine, long haired woman. I happened to see her at a family get together of my friend. She was about 40 pounds heavier, wearing jeans, a mans shirt and sporting a mans haircut. I wouldn't have known she was a woman. Her partner was the female of the pair, very feminine. This situation is one of many in the homosexual community. One is playing the " man" role and one the " woman". why is that?

    The fact that a 4th grader would even think about his/ her sexual gender should be a wake up call to the moral downhill slide of our nation. We really do reap what we sow.



  17. #97
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    Again, candyappy...do you follow every law and word in the Bible, or just the ones that allow you to justify being a homophobic bigot?


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  18. #98
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    ^^ Posts like candyappy's both sadden and sicken me. ANYTHING to keep wearing the "I'm A Bigot For Christ!" badge.

    There is a TON of evidence in favor of a "gay gene", should you choose to investigate it. Identical twin studies, for one; it's nearly, if not entirely, unheard of for one twin to be gay and the other straight.
    Last edited by Mara; Feb. 7, 2013 at 05:09 PM.


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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    Prove to me there is a gay gene. How about a pedophile gene. A school shooter gene. A woman who prefers to sleep with her young male students gene. A fat gene . A alcoholic gene. A drug addiction gene?

    You can't because there isn't one. This is what happens to a culture that is self obsessed with every carnal thing there is. Everything goes, if it feels good to you then do it. We are given to indulge in anything we choose and the more you indulge the deeper you go. As a country you can see how far we have gone. We as a country have no moral standard. This is what happens when you take God out of it.


    These are all choices people make. Some are influenced by the culture they live in, family life, what they were exposed to. Some are just at a weak time in life and susceptible to whatever they encounter at the time. I have a friend who has a sister who was in an awful and abusive marriage. She left him and my friend said that she was now gay. When she was married she was slim, feminine, long haired woman. I happened to see her at a family get together of my friend. She was about 40 pounds heavier, wearing jeans, a mans shirt and sporting a mans haircut. I wouldn't have known she was a woman. Her partner was the female of the pair, very feminine. This situation is one of many in the homosexual community. One is playing the " man" role and one the " woman". why is that?

    The fact that a 4th grader would even think about his/ her sexual gender should be a wake up call to the moral downhill slide of our nation. We really do reap what we sow.
    There are homosexual animals. Are they making bad cultural choices too? Newsflash, you don't live in a theocracy, like Iran for example. You can't dictate to the country based on your religious myths. The Boy Scouts, as a private club, can choose whatever the direction they want, but times are changing and they will be left behind if they don't choose wisely.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/5550488/Homosexual-behaviour-widespread-in-animals-according-to-new-study.html
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    Religion is something people practice for various reasons. The religious leaders in the time of Jesus practiced all the laws and were quite proud of being so moral and upstanding because of it. They completely denied who Jesus was and that He was the only way of salvation, despite the fact that the bible they claimed to know, teach and follow pointed to Him as the promised messiah. They believed their outward appearance to perfectly uphold the laws were enough to grant them salvation. Jesus called them " white washed tombs" Looking clean and respectable on the outside, but dead in their sins on the inside.

    The practice of any religion that is based on any other foundation for salvation then the blood of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross, His death, burial and resurrection is flawed and deceptive. Salvation is- God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. There is only one way, not many.

    A true believer will be a changed person from the inside out and it is a change that only God can do and it is over a lifetime.
    Hate to tell ya, but you drank a little too much o'the Kool-Aid, sis. That "Book," which y'all quote but apparently seldom READ, was written down between 100 and 1500 years after the death of Christ, by not gods but MEN. And don't hand me that "divinely inspired" basketfull. They were "inspired," all right, by their own personal and tribal agenda of the moment--same as every other MAN who's ever lived on this planet. That "Good" Book has been used as justification for war, crusade, ethnic cleansing, genocide, eugenics, and keeping women in a position of sexual subservience for most of the last 1500 years. Not that there aren't many, many educational truths of human nature in there--just as there are reading Niccolo Machiavelli!

    The bottom line is, we're all in this world together and we have to learn to get along. If there is no pivotal social purpose served by a given social institution, we usually ditch it within a generation or two. Biology has shown us what the truth is about homosexuality; it has nothing at all to do with "morals." "Morals" is how we treat other people--and you have NO moral high ground here at all.

    BTW--99% of all the glassy-eyed True Believers I've ever met, the ones who go around wearing the Bible on their sleeve and prating it at everyone else, were either alcoholics, former drug addicts, or abused children. I ain't askin' which of these might have been you. Or not. But if you need to live in an alternate reality THAT badly, it might be an indication of problems in this one. Just sayin'!


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