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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnwood View Post
    But the entities backing the ban are not limited to the community. Even NyClasses "petition" is not geographically limited.

    What you are asking her to do is not speak outside of her warren, not alert or include others even when the legislation can and will affect them. I thought she was a member of the equestrian "community". Having an open dialog with the rest of us is something I am grateful for.

    I don't know if this will make sense to you but I'll try. The groups backing the bills have openly stated they will use any headway to create further legislation elsewhere. The groups creating and suggesting the bills are backed by NATIONAL groups who openly admit to wanting NATIONAL abolitionism. I know you are intelligent and I hope you are not suggesting that each municipality should be idle until its their turn on the chopping block?
    She'd tell Davy Crockett to work with the community....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.
    GNU Terry Prachett


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #242
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    And this isn't even a proposed NYC ordinance. This is state legislation. Legislators who do not even represent NYC will be deciding this industry's fate. There is no choice but to appeal outside of the community of NYC.

    Now what diversion will SV come up with. First we were meanies so she wouldn't support us. Then she wasnt sure if carriages belong in cities. But she couldn't come up with a rationale for some cities but not others so she punted to the communities. They should decide for themselves. And now she can't support us because we shouldn't be talking about this on COTH.

    Painted yourself into a bit of a corner, no?
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns



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  3. #243
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    Sent my email and dropped a note to the local boys as well. Being from Houston, Texas where we do have downtown carriages AND a downtown parade with horses I can see this growing to an unwieldy animal that bans all four legged creatures out of the city. There's also the island to consider where there are carriages there as well. I go every chance I get on the carriages and I will not have those people turned out of their work or their horses just to be replaced by gaudy cars at the behest of someone whose whole work ethic is a conflict of interest. We've had turn cloaks since the beginning of time but that doesn't mean I have to be okay with it.
    Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
    Originally Posted by alicen:
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by leilatigress View Post
    Sent my email and dropped a note to the local boys as well. Being from Houston, Texas where we do have downtown carriages AND a downtown parade with horses I can see this growing to an unwieldy animal that bans all four legged creatures out of the city. There's also the island to consider where there are carriages there as well. I go every chance I get on the carriages and I will not have those people turned out of their work or their horses just to be replaced by gaudy cars at the behest of someone whose whole work ethic is a conflict of interest. We've had turn cloaks since the beginning of time but that doesn't mean I have to be okay with it.
    Leila - thank you, very much appreciated.
    BTW, The Greater Houston Horse Council (I believe that is the right name of the org) passed a special resolution to support the NYC carriages against all comers
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


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  5. #245
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    Emails sent.

    Thanks for the heads up.


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  6. #246
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    I don't know how any horse lover could possibly want the carriage horse industry in NYC to continue. Putting aside the propaganda from both sides, what do your own eyes tell you? For those of us who spend a lot of time in NYC, we see the horses standing parked like cars for hours in the scalding heat, without shade, in the freezing cold, rain and every type of weather, unable to even move around unless they are dragging a carriage behind them through traffic; they are unable to turn around to scratch themselves or to get at a fly. They spend hour after hour in their day unable to move freely in any way - trapped in their harness with their front feet up on the curbs of Manhattan, while their drivers wait for their next fare. It is truly a shameful sight.

    There is nothing quaint or nostalgic about the carriage horse industry in NY. The horses are used as money-making machines, in a thoughtless and indecent sideshow entertainment that is long past its due date.

    The carriage industry is fond of using scare tactics to compel horse people to support them, but the whole "first us, then you" scenario is nonsense. Carriage horses have been banned in cities too numerous to list, and their equestrian communities have not been affected - because the carriage horse industry is NOT part of the equestrian community. Where I live, the carriages were banned from our city over a decade ago, and our equestrian community is thriving, without the least incident of persecution. I am quite certain horse sport in the U.S. won't come to an end if the carriage horses are no longer doing a racing trot along the streets of New York.

    As one lifelong horse person to others, I ask you to please find out as much as you can about the day-in, day-out life of a NY carriage horse and then ask yourself this:

    If your horse had the attributes to be a New York carriage horse, would you ever, in a million years, allow him to become a New York carriage horse? If your answer is "no", then how can you stomach any horse leading that miserable life?



  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartley View Post
    I don't know how any horse lover could possibly want the carriage horse industry in NYC to continue. Putting aside the propaganda from both sides, what do your own eyes tell you? For those of us who spend a lot of time in NYC, we see the horses standing parked like cars for hours in the scalding heat, without shade, in the freezing cold, rain and every type of weather, unable to even move around unless they are dragging a carriage behind them through traffic; they are unable to turn around to scratch themselves or to get at a fly. They spend hour after hour in their day unable to move freely in any way - trapped in their harness with their front feet up on the curbs of Manhattan, while their drivers wait for their next fare. It is truly a shameful sight.

    There is nothing quaint or nostalgic about the carriage horse industry in NY. The horses are used as money-making machines, in a thoughtless and indecent sideshow entertainment that is long past its due date.

    The carriage industry is fond of using scare tactics to compel horse people to support them, but the whole "first us, then you" scenario is nonsense. Carriage horses have been banned in cities too numerous to list, and their equestrian communities have not been affected - because the carriage horse industry is NOT part of the equestrian community. Where I live, the carriages were banned from our city over a decade ago, and our equestrian community is thriving, without the least incident of persecution. I am quite certain horse sport in the U.S. won't come to an end if the carriage horses are no longer doing a racing trot along the streets of New York.

    As one lifelong horse person to others, I ask you to please find out as much as you can about the day-in, day-out life of a NY carriage horse and then ask yourself this:

    If your horse had the attributes to be a New York carriage horse, would you ever, in a million years, allow him to become a New York carriage horse? If your answer is "no", then how can you stomach any horse leading that miserable life?
    Ok, after all of the 13 pages...have you read any of them?

    have you read the bill?
    If your horse has the makeup to be a NYC carriage horse, man you are lucky. it's not like you are forced to sell it there.

    be it as you may, the issue as the 'other side' has stated, time and time again, in public, is that they don't want horses enslaved. And that means yours, too.

    They have stated time and time again that they do not intend to stop after the NYC horses are gone.
    BTW, there are other horses in the city, of course, their connections carry guns and billy clubs....it's like throwing paint at a biker...it just isn't done, right.

    The bill does not only propose to take the horses out of the city - which is a CITY issue BTW, and the mayor sees no problem with it - but also to FORCE the owners to give them away 'sell or donate' to a 3rd party over which they have no influence other than they have to be 'approved' (but by whom)
    or a sanctuary. And we all know how many of them are around, right.

    Further more a healthy, fit working horse is now forced into retirement, fr it's 'natural life' not to be worked.

    Even 'work' is defined to a point that even you hacking the animal around the farm you are violating the law.

    It is a state law, well above the scope of the actual 'problem'
    meaning it can be easily without much fuzz altered to fit any city.

    And probably any discipline.

    it sets precedence for other states, other disciplines.

    Dare I repeat it? The ban supporters won't stop there. They are already eyeballing other cities, other disciplines.
    They are backed by multibillion dollar groups who have nothing on their agenda but to separate us from our animals - ALL animals! It's been documented.

    The protesters see nothing wrong with wishing for bodily harm for the drivers, even death. They have been documented interfering with the operations of business, attacking customers....


    Oh...and at least one faction of the pro ban people have other interests: For one, real estate speculators are hoping to get their hands on the stables to build parking garages.....the other group wishes to cash in on face antique electric cars.....$$$ to be sure.

    It's actually not about the horses.
    They just get to lose their jobs, and value...

    it is about the right to retain your personal property.
    To not be separated from it because somebody dislikes what you do with it.

    It is about not to let law abiding people get thrown under the bus, stripped of their livelihoods without cause. They are not breaking the law. And good grief, they have more than the average rule they can trip over.


    make yourself knowledgable is a good piece of advice.
    The OP has been kind enough to supply us with generous means to verify her claims.
    And frankly, having read some of the 'information' the ban supporters put out....you really have to wonder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.
    GNU Terry Prachett


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #248
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    I do not live in NY, nor do I give two hoots about NYC carriage horses or their drivers. I do care a whole lot about my own ability to trail ride my two backyard horses and operate my small (non-horse) business. Michaeleen is giving us the heads up to save our own butts, not hers. Emails sent.

    Ignore the trolls. Keep the focus on contacting legislators.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  9. #249
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    Hartley- I'm pretty sure you have never driven a horse with an itch or a fly... have you?


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  10. #250
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    HSUS has proposed, in New Jersey, that ALL horses have access to water 24/7. I have mentioned this before. The rule USED to be that the horse was hydrated. They are now trying to change it to access all day every day

    Small little changes, to a non horse owner/breeder...do not seem to have much impact but when you take a look at the whole picture,,county and county and state by8 state, it is possible to see the emergence of "the plan".

    Tin foil hat on and repaired ....not a conspiracy..it is A FACT.

    Horses standing outside in the elements..too many eastern owners are subjected to, and therefore subject their horses to ... sterility... in environment.

    Those of us who live on the prairies..NO TREES...NO BABBLING BROOKS, no fly swatters etc

    The horses stand outside, in the blistering heat even when there is shade from a shelter available. They stand up hill. They stand down hill. (city talk equvalent of curbs). That is when they are not in use. We do, as do the carriage owners, wipe the horses with fly repellant..no different than humans.

    On ranches,horses WORK when it is 20 below or lower and 80 above or higher. The cowboys treat their horses with respect and care for them well as there is a consequence if they don't. The horse will break down, or become sick...and die.

    I believe too many individuals who claim to own horses, have them in homes" rather than facilities. Boutique settings rather than reality.

    I spoke with Brewster Transport in Banff, Alberta National Park. They have carriage horses..here is a different twist....those protesting could not say too many cars i.e. NYC so they said the horses were restricted and could be attacked by bears and would not be able to escape??????

    These groups do not give up...they just try and adapt and appeal to those who don't know (i.e. tourists or non animal folks) for their support.

    As Alagirl stated..it is not just about the horses..it is not a slippery slope to STEAL the horses from the owners and put them in homes...what next? ...make the victim (horse owner) PAY for their lifetime keep after they steal them> ? (Already done...it is called seizure)

    These groups do not care if there demands have common sense or are legal. They overwhelm the courts with bill after bill just hoping ONE slips through.
    \
    Dog owners are aware of that. There are now PET free communities..

    the slope is no longer JUST slippery...the horse owner is now pushed over the cliff..

    When these groups run out of animals don't think for one moment they will not start to turn on people...CONTROL is what it is about...


    4 members found this post helpful.

  11. #251
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    Hartley..would you please identify where you live (not who you are) for verification of the carriage horse ban..


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  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartley View Post
    I don't know how any horse lover could possibly want the carriage horse industry in NYC to continue. Putting aside the propaganda from both sides, what do your own eyes tell you? For those of us who spend a lot of time in NYC, we see the horses standing parked like cars for hours You mean resting ? in the scalding heat, without shade, in the freezing cold, rain and every type of weather, My horses have 24/7 access to their runin stalls. They prefer to be out in all kinds of weather most of the time. They are horses, not turtles. unable to even move around unless they are dragging a carriage behind them through traffic; Sounds like resting, moving, resting, moving - that is bad ? they are unable to turn around to scratch themselves or to get at a fly. They spend hour after hour in their day unable to move freely in any way - trapped in their harness with their front feet up on the curbs of Manhattan, while their drivers wait for their next fare. It is truly a shameful sight.

    There is nothing quaint or nostalgic about the carriage horse industry in NY. The horses are used as money-making machines, in a thoughtless and indecent sideshow entertainment that is long past its due date. As a former carriage driver, i really resent your assessment of my motives.

    The carriage industry is fond of using scare tactics to compel horse people to support them, but the whole "first us, then you" scenario is nonsense. Carriage horses have been banned in cities too numerous to list, and their equestrian communities have not been affected - because the carriage horse industry is NOT part of the equestrian community. Really - you are some kind of elitist, lady. Where I live, the carriages were banned from our city over a decade ago, and our equestrian community is thriving, without the least incident of persecution. I am quite certain horse sport in the U.S. won't come to an end if the carriage horses are no longer doing a racing trot along the streets of New York. Not overnight but do stay tuned.

    As one lifelong horse person to others, I ask you to please find out as much as you can about the day-in, day-out life of a NY carriage horse and then ask yourself this:

    If your horse had the attributes to be a New York carriage horse, would you ever, in a million years, allow him to become a New York carriage horse? If your answer is "no", then how can you stomach any horse leading that miserable life?
    These are well cared for horses, luckier than hordes of other horses suffering from sins of omission or commision.
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.


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  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartley View Post
    I don't know how any horse lover could possibly want the carriage horse industry in NYC to continue. Putting aside the propaganda from both sides, what do your own eyes tell you? For those of us who spend a lot of time in NYC, we see the horses standing parked like cars for hours in the scalding heat, without shade, in the freezing cold, rain and every type of weather, unable to even move around unless they are dragging a carriage behind them through traffic; they are unable to turn around to scratch themselves or to get at a fly. They spend hour after hour in their day unable to move freely in any way - trapped in their harness with their front feet up on the curbs of Manhattan, while their drivers wait for their next fare. It is truly a shameful sight.

    There is nothing quaint or nostalgic about the carriage horse industry in NY. The horses are used as money-making machines, in a thoughtless and indecent sideshow entertainment that is long past its due date.

    The carriage industry is fond of using scare tactics to compel horse people to support them, but the whole "first us, then you" scenario is nonsense. Carriage horses have been banned in cities too numerous to list, and their equestrian communities have not been affected - because the carriage horse industry is NOT part of the equestrian community. Where I live, the carriages were banned from our city over a decade ago, and our equestrian community is thriving, without the least incident of persecution. I am quite certain horse sport in the U.S. won't come to an end if the carriage horses are no longer doing a racing trot along the streets of New York.

    As one lifelong horse person to others, I ask you to please find out as much as you can about the day-in, day-out life of a NY carriage horse and then ask yourself this:

    If your horse had the attributes to be a New York carriage horse, would you ever, in a million years, allow him to become a New York carriage horse? If your answer is "no", then how can you stomach any horse leading that miserable life?
    Are you serious?
    Don't you feel sorry for all those feral horses out there in the wild, never a minute of peace, starving half of the time, bugs eating at them, wormy, being run off by other horses, having to watch their backs and run other horses off, etc.?

    That is called life, all that is alive is doing a job, any job, no one really is getting a free ride, other than maybe some pasture ornament someone just warehouses out there and takes care of.

    Do you feel sorry for all the kids enslaved to their schools and school work, workers to their jobs, some in factories, some in offices, some in stores, etc.?

    I think it is a big stretch saying horses are abused because they have a job being a carriage horse, the poor things.

    IF you really think so, follow that thought where it goes, any and all domestic animals are enslaved and need to be freed, humans need to stay hands off them, there is no other way around that.
    Why is a carriage horse any worse off than so many other horses out there doing whatever we do with them?

    THAT is the difference between animal rights and animal welfare.

    Animal rights is an all or nothing, because that is what makes sense if you determine that what we do with our animals is wrong in principle.

    Animal welfare accepts that we as humans can and should and do have right to use animals, as the renewable resource animals are in this world, as we evolved to do in this world.

    Now, once that is out of the way, then we can talk about how to go about doing what we do with our animals right and why that is right or wrong.

    That horses are in NYC and pulling wagons is extremely well regulated and for those horses and humans taking care of them, it is their job in life to do that.

    Want to go tilt at windmills, go help your local rescue do the dirty work of mopping up after those that truly are not caring for their animals and are starving them.

    If you are sitting behind a computer and shortsightedly pointing fingers at what others do because you read somewhere animal rights propaganda telling you to object to that, forgetting that same propaganda is also aimed at any you do with your animals, well, wake up.

    That is what this thread is all about, one more wake up call, for those that can see where these situations are going.


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  14. #254
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    I would never sell my horse to a hunter show barn because who in their right mind would allow their horse to spend most of its hours in a trailer going to shows, in cross ties getting braided, filled full of more drugs than a pharmacy, lunged until its joints give out, then jumped to death. All for some trainer to make money, some brat to get a ribbon, and some rich daddy to get a picture to put in his office. They show whether it's 100 degrees out or not, there are no mandated vacations for them. And when they can't show anymore they wind up at auctions.

    Hartley your choice of phrases, "dragging a carriage", "trapped in a harness", gives you away. You are giving a lot of credit to the notion that working horses would be better off doing something else, somewhere else. But before you decide that a lawful industry should be put out of business ask yourself: do we really want the standard for owning animals to be something so far removed from providing for the animals needs and handling it kindly?

    You may not think life in NYC is ideal for horses. But almost nobody agrees on what is ideal, and most of us agree that we don't have to provide the perfect home to be worthy of keeping our horses.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns



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  15. #255
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    You know, I've got no dog in this fight and I'm not a big fan of the carriage horse industry. There's nothing wrong with the industry at all. It's just not my thing. The horses are obviously trained and well cared for and that's enough for me.

    But I read that legislation. It is crap. It's just a godawful poorly drafted piece of legislation that should never have seen the light of day.

    Which means, based on my experience in my state, that this a purely political piece of legislation. And it's being used to horsetrade favors among politicians, donors, and party leaders, especially those who may be looking at an upcoming campaign. They don't give a damn about horses or animal welfare or good or bad public policy. This is horsetrading, pure and simple. It doesn't matter who gets screwed or if there are unintended consequences.

    If you're against the industry, that's fine. I get it. But if you're smart you'll read that Bill; really read and understand what sort of precedent it sets in that state. Which text will then be used by other states when some group of whackjob activists decide to target you.

    What carriage horse industry opponents may want to do is step back and really evaluate the Bill on its merits. I'm not kidding - it is a seriously flawed piece of legislation.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


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  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by breyerblu View Post
    Emails sent.

    Thanks for the heads up.
    Thank you very much, Breyer!
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts



  17. #257
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    Clearly Hartley the only opinions not worthy of ridicule on these COTH pro-carriage threads are the ones agreeing with whatever the pro-carriage industry wants to do. Someone even justified their own nastiness. So 8 posters jumped on someone who articulated their opinion which is not pro-carriage, complete with name calling. Gotta love a group of like minded people that refer to those of a differing opinion as "trolls".



  18. #258
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    Like Mariah Carey said, ain't gonna feed ya, I'm gonna let ya starve.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns



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  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartley View Post
    I don't know how any horse lover could possibly want the carriage horse industry in NYC to continue. Putting aside the propaganda from both sides, what do your own eyes tell you? For those of us who spend a lot of time in NYC, we see the horses standing parked like cars for hours in the scalding heat, without shade, in the freezing cold, rain and every type of weather, unable to even move around unless they are dragging a carriage behind them through traffic; they are unable to turn around to scratch themselves or to get at a fly. They spend hour after hour in their day unable to move freely in any way - trapped in their harness with their front feet up on the curbs of Manhattan, while their drivers wait for their next fare. It is truly a shameful sight.

    There is nothing quaint or nostalgic about the carriage horse industry in NY. The horses are used as money-making machines, in a thoughtless and indecent sideshow entertainment that is long past its due date.

    The carriage industry is fond of using scare tactics to compel horse people to support them, but the whole "first us, then you" scenario is nonsense. Carriage horses have been banned in cities too numerous to list, and their equestrian communities have not been affected - because the carriage horse industry is NOT part of the equestrian community. Where I live, the carriages were banned from our city over a decade ago, and our equestrian community is thriving, without the least incident of persecution. I am quite certain horse sport in the U.S. won't come to an end if the carriage horses are no longer doing a racing trot along the streets of New York.

    As one lifelong horse person to others, I ask you to please find out as much as you can about the day-in, day-out life of a NY carriage horse and then ask yourself this:

    If your horse had the attributes to be a New York carriage horse, would you ever, in a million years, allow him to become a New York carriage horse? If your answer is "no", then how can you stomach any horse leading that miserable life?
    Hartley, I have a whole of answers for you, and am glad you posted, as I am sure there are others reading who may have similar ideas/opinions and I would like a chance to address them.....

    BUT, before I do all that, I must ask you how you can be such a giddy supporter of New Orleans carriages, but such a vocal opponent of NYC carriages? How does that work, exactly?


    bort84
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    Carriage for a New Orleans Wedding?

    (Crossposting in the driving forum)
    So I'm getting married in New Orleans in the French Quarter on May 14, and I was curious if anyone on here knows of a carriage company (or individual) who does that sort of thing....<snip>

    Thanks for the help!


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    Mar. 22, 2011, 11:25 AM #2

    hartley
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    If you are staying at a hotel with a good concierge, they will be able to help you. Hotel concierges seem to be able to perform miracles!

    Congratulations!!
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


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  20. #260
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    Blinders or flash noseband...if given the choice would you prefer to not see to the side or have your mouth buckled shut so some dressage ditz can heavy hand you into a "frame" for a judge?

    Dragging a carriage? Dragging? Have you heard of the new invention called The Wheel? Wicked cool, rolling is superior to dragging. Rolling on pavement...easiest.
    I'm a little human...smaller than average. I'm middle aged. I have barely working parts due to chronic Lyme.
    *I* can move those carriages across pavement. LOVE that Wheel invention.

    So how many dressage shows have been cancelled due to heat or cold? Hunter shows? Eventing? Olympics? Elite 7 figure animals...competing HARD in 3 digit temps. Have you gone and clutched your pearls over them too?

    And I see your understanding of lobbying is as advanced as your knowledge of how a WHEEL works.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


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