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  1. #21
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    Well, I am an archaeologist so... yes I'm fascinated by this story! Thanks for sharing links to stories and videos everyone



  2. #22
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    Politics is deeply involved here, and revisionist history muddies the water. Remember all that was claimed about Catherine The Great.
    “There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”
    John Adams


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  3. #23
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    Richard III's legacy is a classic embodiment of history being written by the victors. He was, in fact, highly respected in his time. I'm hopeful that the renewed interest in Richard will lead to his narrative migrating closer to the truth.

    All that aside, I admit to having trouble sleeping last night in my excitement for this morning. I am fascinated that DNA could be extracted for remains that were thrown without ceremony into the ground over 500 years ago, and I was shocked to see how curved his spine was. These little details make him so much more real....
    <><


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  4. #24
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    I've been following the story and was super excited to hear the results. I just love archaeology and history and real-life mysteries, plus I grew up doing medieval reenacting, so anything with the Plantagenets/Tudors/etc. is always fascinating to me. As far as his villainy goes, I think it's probably somewhere in the middle of the "hero king" and "evil hunchback" versions...
    "Remain relentlessly cheerful."

    Graphite/Pastel Portraits


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  5. #25
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    I'm glad he was found and is getting a proper burial as a king. There will always be a great debate on what he did or did not do. Personally, I think he was overly villified. There were many people in 15th century England that did not want a minority reign again. Look at the disruption caused by the minority rules of Richard II and Henry VI.

    If you want to look at pretty English monsterous king who used absolute power, go no further than Henry VIII. His legacy is still playing out today.
    Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule
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  6. #26
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    Read The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey. It's a novel, but incorporates all the research done on what Richard III was really like, and how his political enemies allowed only their negative views of him to be published.

    For any of you fascinated with this part of history (as I am) I think you'll enjoy it so much.


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  7. #27
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    I LOVE this "Off Topic"! This discussion is fascinating - had no idea the excavation was going on. WILL read recommended book. And share the links!
    Thanks!

    Carol
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast


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  8. #28
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    ccoronios, I'd love to know what you think of the book (The Daughter of Time).

    Also, here's the latest from CNN, including photos: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/01/wo...html?hpt=hp_c1



  9. #29
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    I am so glad that it was "beyond reasonable doubt" that identification.

    I have always had a soft spot for Richard III - as "more sinned against that sinning". His biggest sin was to lose his final battle - and he wouldnt have done that without a major ally changing sides! He was no more vicious that any contemporary - and probably far less so than others.

    Throughout contemporary accounts, Richard III was renowned as being fiercely loyal to his family (House of York) and in particular to his brother Edward IV. He was never recorded as being a traitor to his family (as his brother was on several occasions). Further, he was renown as a very very good warrior and leader of men. That was despite his curved spine etc that would have made it more difficult to be the powerful swordsman/horseman etc that he was. He was fighting at a very young age - the earliest that I have seen quoted was 11 years old.

    Yes, the barons did not want another minority rule - think of the depradations etc of Edward II, Richard II and Henry IV. And they knew Richard III, they knew his reputation as being a good lord (York burghers wrote after he was killed "and our good prince most greviously slain"), and a just man - for the time! In those days, the king did not have absolute power - he could not raise taxes without a parliment that normally asked them to confirm the Magna Carta each time - but as close as it could be. He was a necessity for those times.

    Henry VII had a lot less claim to the throne.

    Further, a lot of the barons didnt want anything to do with Edward IV's queen's familty - and those are who threw their lot in with Henry VII as well as the House of Lancaster who were already opposed to Richard merely 'cause he was on the House of York.

    And to be frank, any of Edward II, Richard II and Henry IV (but more particularly Edward II) would have rivaled Henry VIII as killing a very large number of people in judicial executions. At least Henry VIII attempted a mock trial - the others just didnt rein their favourites in.

    Did Richard III order the death of the two princes? Who knows - and who knows whether the two skeletons they found under the stairs were even theirs! No DNA testing was done - but now it could be.

    Opinions will still be divided.
    Still Working_on_it - one day I will get it!


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambitious Kate View Post
    Here's an interesting link with a video showing the excavation and very clear shots of a fantastic curvature of the spine - amazing someone could go around with that deeply S spine. Anyway, nice summation of the find and excavation

    http://www.le.ac.uk/richardiii/


    As for him being a loser, I think most of his ugliness he managed to show before Tudor came along to dispossess him of the throne. There is alot of contemporary writing of him before he lost the battle with Henry which casts doubt on him being any kind of a good human, but that's my opinion. I don't agree with the Richard III society people.
    "Loser" is a pretty harsh term for someone who faithfully served his brother Edward for the 20+ years he was on the throne. One would think if Richard really were a power-greedy monster as the Tudors portrayed him, he would have murdered Edward before he had issue to inherit the throne. Heaven knows, Richard had plenty of time and opportunity.

    You might want to read this book.

    It was written in 1955 and is definitely pro-Richard, but doesn't clear him from blame for the young princes' deaths. It is based entirely on contemporary sources and will give you a good idea of the political issues at stake. It was a bloody time and Richard's weren't the only hands that were not clean. Not by any means.
    __________________________
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  11. #31
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    MHM-it's called leading from the front, and I don't think people would follow a king then that led from anywhere else.

    Daughter of Time is a fascinating read. And I believe he was wrongly accused also. Getting rid of rivals was a very popular sport among royals and their associates, and there is no proof that Richard got rid of the little Princes. He might very well have arranged for them to get out of the Tower, and move to the countryside, but many people had access to them.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanM View Post
    MHM-it's called leading from the front, and I don't think people would follow a king then that led from anywhere else.
    Oh, I understand the concept. It just seems like a fairly poor strategy if given any thought. "Let's take the most important person we have in the whole country, and put him at the front of the battle, within range of the enemy's soldiers. What could possibly go wrong?"



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    Oh, I understand the concept. It just seems like a fairly poor strategy if given any thought. "Let's take the most important person we have in the whole country, and put him at the front of the battle, within range of the enemy's soldiers. What could possibly go wrong?"
    well, if G-d made him king, he will safely guide him through battle...

    besides, the king was really only the first knight among knights...you gotta do the job first! (it's a relatively new thing, for kings and generals to remain behind!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.
    GNU Terry Prachett



  14. #34
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    Duh, he was clearly killed by Blackadder anyway...
    http://youtu.be/olrJwB0XdnM

    http://www.dailymotion.com/playlist/...inx_black-../1
    "Remain relentlessly cheerful."

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  15. #35
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    OOps - my apologies, I got the wrong Henry in my list of "kings even more nutty than Henry VIII that pre-dated him" - my apologies. Although, even he was really a boy-king as well when you come to think of it - he inherited his throne in his late teens and had been kept (or kept himself) away from the concepts of ruling just like Edward II, Richard II and the other Henry .

    And, although often not leading from the front in the actual battle itself, the King at the time was expected to be at the battle. This was often the complaint against the boy-kings. At the Battle of Bosworth Field, Richard III was fighting for his kingdom and his right to rule. His barons expected him to be there! As was Henry VII who was also there.
    Still Working_on_it - one day I will get it!



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaeHughes View Post
    At the Battle of Bosworth Field, Richard III was fighting for his kingdom and his right to rule.
    And how did that work out for him?



  17. #37
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    Well, back in the day that's how you got to be (and stay) King: you literally had to whap the other guy over the head before he whapped you.

    If you weren't strong enough or brave enough to go out there and do it yourself, how could you expect your liege lords to support you? And unless you proved your own toughness, what was to prevent them from doing the whapping on your own head?


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    And how did that work out for him?
    About the same as it did for Harry at Hastings....

    On the other hand... at the end of the day - both days - England had a new king....who fought on the battle field....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.
    GNU Terry Prachett



  19. #39
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    Thought this was intriguing from the CNN article.

    The researchers matched the DNA by finding a present-day direct line descendant, named Michael Ibsen, of Richard III's sister, and also another distant relative who prefers to stay anonymous. However, they are apparently the last descendants - the line is about to die out:

    "I went really quiet. I was seeing all these matches coming back, thinking, 'That's a match, and that's a match, and that's a match.' At that point I did a little dance around the lab."

    [Turi] King [who carried out the DNA analysis] pointed out that "in a generation's time, the DNA match would not have been possible, since both individuals used in the tests are the last of their line," a fact echoed by Ibsen, who told CNN before the results came through that "they caught us just in time."



  20. #40
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    I wonder what happened to his feet? Totally cool nonetheless, to be undisturbed all this time. Daughter of Time was a good read, I'd like to pick up the other book mentioned here.

    I wonder what would have happened in regards to the Church if Richard had been successful, the ramifications are pretty wide. No Henry 8, no Church of England, would religious tolerance have existed in America? How homogenous would we be in the USA?
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
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