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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    A balance of production methods.
    The USDA has many programs for starting farmers, all sizes.
    Don't take my word for it, I have told you this before, go check it out yourself.
    I know, I am part of our local office and get their regular releases all the time.
    Our taxes at work, insulting to call what they do "corporate welfare".
    bluey, I have no problem with a balanced method of food production..read my last post. I said that very thing to Starrunner. I do think however that your model of industrial agriculture is going to price itself out of existence at some point in the future when the inputs and methods become too costly...ie the rising costs of petroleum used so extensively in this model. People will still need to eat so someone had better be thinking of options.

    I also don't get the hang up on organic from several of you. I'm NOT organic and not one farmer I know around here is either. I try to grow my veggies that way but my animals eat locally milled and grown conventional animal feeds. My cattle are probably closer to organic as they eat only grass and hay and I don't spray my pastures...but I'm not advertising them as such. Consumers are pretty informed these days about the fallacy of the organic label and most are concerned about where their food, meat, eggs, and veggies comes from and how it was handled and raised. The use of antibiotics and hormones is a big concern to many also and they often seek out farmers who do not use these inputs in raising their animals. I'm not debating this but simply stating fact.

    Come and visit me and go with me to the market in the summer here...or attend them in your area. LISTEN to what the people are asking the farmers there...and these people are generally well informed and engaged. I have clients ranging from young couples with small kids to retired older people and of all races and nationalities. I have one French guy who won't buy chicken from anyone else and many loyal egg customers. The only thing they have in common is their interest in locally sourced food.

    I did not coin the phrase "corporate welfare" but others did. I think it's somewhat fitting for how much of our taxpayer money is divvied out to keep prices of certain crops artificially low thus keeping the food made from it artificially low as well. I think it's an outrage the way our taxpayer money is handled in this country in more ways than this and I'm happy to insult those who waste it...so don't get your panties in a wad over my terminology. It's not intended to insult you so try not to get hung up over it.



  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    bluey, I have no problem with a balanced method of food production..read my last post. I said that very thing to Starrunner. I do think however that your model of industrial agriculture is going to price itself out of existence at some point in the future when the inputs and methods become too costly...ie the rising costs of petroleum used so extensively in this model. People will still need to eat so someone had better be thinking of options.

    I also don't get the hang up on organic from several of you. I'm NOT organic and not one farmer I know around here is either. I try to grow my veggies that way but my animals eat locally milled and grown conventional animal feeds. My cattle are probably closer to organic as they eat only grass and hay and I don't spray my pastures...but I'm not advertising them as such. Consumers are pretty informed these days about the fallacy of the organic label and most are concerned about where their food, meat, eggs, and veggies comes from and how it was handled and raised. The use of antibiotics and hormones is a big concern to many also and they often seek out farmers who do not use these inputs in raising their animals. I'm not debating this but simply stating fact.

    Come and visit me and go with me to the market in the summer here...or attend them in your area. LISTEN to what the people are asking the farmers there...and these people are generally well informed and engaged. I have clients ranging from young couples with small kids to retired older people and of all races and nationalities. I have one French guy who won't buy chicken from anyone else and many loyal egg customers. The only thing they have in common is their interest in locally sourced food.

    I did not coin the phrase "corporate welfare" but others did. I think it's somewhat fitting for how much of our taxpayer money is divvied out to keep prices of certain crops artificially low thus keeping the food made from it artificially low as well. I think it's an outrage the way our taxpayer money is handled in this country in more ways than this and I'm happy to insult those who waste it...so don't get your panties in a wad over my terminology. It's not intended to insult you so try not to get hung up over it.
    When you don't know how some system works, here USDA programs, you really should not use certain words, even if it is other's words, in an insulting manner, because it just shows you don't know about it.

    Remember, trust your sources if you like, but verify before repeating what you hear.
    Sorry, what you repeated is just not so, check it out yourself at your local USDA office, go ask what programs they have, how each office gets to participate, their budgets, how individuals qualify for them and what their limits are.
    Then come back to say if that is "corporate welfare".



  3. #103
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    Guilherme - every time this or a similar subject comes up you and a few others condescend and patronize the little women. If you've got a problem with the responses you get with your attitude, you're going to have to deal with it like a big boy.

    Since you do not live in this region, you have no way of knowing what the ag communities are doing to protect and expand their industries. I've touched upon some efforts that are in fact successful. Some efforts will not be successful for a variety of reasons. You want more information? Google it.

    You're a fool to think that the only possible method of food production is the one you personally endorse or are familiar with. On smaller acreages, and near urban centers, a farmer can often make a better living if he sells his products directly to the public. Their efforts are not intended to replace the existing system.

    What's the matter? Are you jealous that a farmer in another region might be a better businessman?


    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    Gee, us retired folk should just confine ourselves to our rocking chairs? How utterly generous of you.

    You stated that "But there is no reason a farmer near Washington DC is forced to sell his cattle at auction - when he could have it cut and packaged and eaten in Washington DC (emphasis provided) and keep the profit." I may be retired, but I can still read.

    You say you've made progress? How many local slaughter plants have you seen established (in D.C. or anywhere else)? That would be a practical measure of progress that even us small, sad folks could recognize.

    You commented on a vast flow of wealth out of your region. I asked you specifically about that. You didn't answer. Tell us about your progress in addressing this flow. Be specific, here.

    If you become specific and responsive you won't have to engage in ad hominem, hey? By the way, this is directed at the other anti-ageist zealots, too.

    Do you believe in evolution? If so then to understand what you have now you have to understand what went before. Few folks here are more interested in history than I am. I know what went before and how it lead to what we have now. The proposals to "re-create infrastructure" are attempts to turn back the clock. Sometimes that's a good idea, but sometimes it's not.

    And yes, as a "small farmer" I get a subsidy. In TN if you're "green belt" (agricultural or forest) you get about a 50% reduction in property taxes. I understand that this is common in many states. I don't know about VA, but I'd bet that there are benefits in the tax system for "farmers."

    And still no one has explained to me how you're going to feed 30-40 million people even with the "enhanced infrastructure." No one has explained you they're going to overcome meteorology, zoning rules, PETA, HSUS, breathless TV news coverage of how animals are slaughtered, the real estate industry, and the various Laws of Supply and Demand.

    If you build it they might come, but they might still all go to Walmart.

    That's the view from my sad, little world.

    G.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    Gee, us retired folk should just confine ourselves to our rocking chairs? How utterly generous of you.

    You stated that "But there is no reason a farmer near Washington DC is forced to sell his cattle at auction - when he could have it cut and packaged and eaten in Washington DC (emphasis provided) and keep the profit." I may be retired, but I can still read.

    You say you've made progress? How many local slaughter plants have you seen established (in D.C. or anywhere else)? That would be a practical measure of progress that even us small, sad folks could recognize.

    You commented on a vast flow of wealth out of your region. I asked you specifically about that. You didn't answer. Tell us about your progress in addressing this flow. Be specific, here.

    If you become specific and responsive you won't have to engage in ad hominem, hey? By the way, this is directed at the other anti-ageist zealots, too.

    Do you believe in evolution? If so then to understand what you have now you have to understand what went before. Few folks here are more interested in history than I am. I know what went before and how it lead to what we have now. The proposals to "re-create infrastructure" are attempts to turn back the clock. Sometimes that's a good idea, but sometimes it's not.

    And yes, as a "small farmer" I get a subsidy. In TN if you're "green belt" (agricultural or forest) you get about a 50% reduction in property taxes. I understand that this is common in many states. I don't know about VA, but I'd bet that there are benefits in the tax system for "farmers."

    And still no one has explained to me how you're going to feed 30-40 million people even with the "enhanced infrastructure." No one has explained you they're going to overcome meteorology, zoning rules, PETA, HSUS, breathless TV news coverage of how animals are slaughtered, the real estate industry, and the various Laws of Supply and Demand.

    If you build it they might come, but they might still all go to Walmart.

    That's the view from my sad, little world.

    G.
    Nobody said they were going to replace all of the existing corporate food system with local markets. If you weren't so busy arguing with yourself you would have noticed that. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with people developing a local market system since there is a demand for it. The reason that small farms can't make it now is because there is no system in place for them anymore, even IF they could market their products effectively enough, which a lot of them don't know how to do. Corporate farming has swamped most everything now but that doesn't mean things can't or won't change.


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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    When you don't know how some system works, here USDA programs, you really should not use certain words, even if it is other's words, in an insulting manner, because it just shows you don't know about it.

    Remember, trust your sources if you like, but verify before repeating what you hear.
    Sorry, what you repeated is just not so, check it out yourself at your local USDA office, go ask what programs they have, how each office gets to participate, their budgets, how individuals qualify for them and what their limits are.
    Then come back to say if that is "corporate welfare".
    I think you are way too worried about semantics. Get over it. I could care less what your opinion is on my word choice.


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  6. #106
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    Just for you bluey so you can see just where the term "corporate welfare" came from in regards to farm subsidies.

    http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...elfare-program

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_welfare

    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...s-unacceptable



  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    Just for you bluey so you can see just where the term "corporate welfare" came from in regards to farm subsidies.

    http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...elfare-program

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_welfare

    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...s-unacceptable
    You are still not getting it.
    You say you are in the farming business and don't even know how your USDA offices operate, what programs they have, if and how they may work for you, if you qualify, you don't know anything about them.

    Then you go hunt some criticism of some parts of the farm bill and want to apply that to your local programs, to your USDA office where you farm and want to call them names, because someone, somewhere has a beef with how some of those programs in some circumstances, may or not be handled?

    Well, we have been thru this before, but you just won't learn, again.

    Each regional USDA office supervises local offices.
    Local offices have government employees working there and a board of directors made of several local farmers that are elected every year by other farmers in that district.
    Each regional and local office receives so much money for their budget and decides, following certain rules, how to apportion that money to the different programs that may fit their region or local farmers.

    Those same USDA offices have another government office, NRSC, the old Soil Conservation office, that are in the same USDA building, but staffed separately and with their own budget and programs.

    Farmers of all kinds can go see what programs in each office are offered in their local office for whatever farming practices they want to implement, or for any insurance or loan programs, many for beginner farmers.
    Yes, you mention a tilapia grower and there are programs that he will qualify for also, I have read the reports for those.

    I know it won't do any good to try to explain this to you, your mind already made up and confused with something you read that you now tie to your local USDA office and won't even go see if you are right.
    Ok, I don't mind repeating myself, someone else may be listening a bit better and go learn more.



  8. #108
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    You didn't even read the articles did you? Seriously if you had, you would not have posted such a stupid totally off the topic answer. I'm not talking about little programs like that. I'm talking about big payouts to farmers who aren't even growing crops and the incredible cost of crop insurance...that's what the term means..

    Read this if you wish to understand what I oppose and what I dislike:

    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...s-unacceptable


    As for my piece of the governments money to farm, no thanks. I'll do this on my own. I don't want anyone's tax money going to pay for my business. I'm believe in personal responsibility and not taking handouts.


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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    You didn't even read the articles did you? Seriously if you had, you would not have posted such a stupid totally off the topic answer. I'm not talking about little programs like that. I'm talking about big payouts to farmers who aren't even growing crops and the incredible cost of crop insurance...that's what the term means..

    Read this if you wish to understand what I oppose and what I dislike:

    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...s-unacceptable


    As for my piece of the governments money to farm, no thanks. I'll do this on my own. I don't want anyone's tax money going to pay for my business. I'm believe in personal responsibility and not taking handouts.
    Yes, I did read that, so what they don't know but half of what those programs do, or ignored so much else, like that pesky balance of trade and how that relates to those programs.

    I am glad that you are so proud you don't want any "handouts", but all that show is that you still don't have any idea what those programs are.

    You know what the biggest of all the USDA programs are?
    Food stamps. Is over half of their budget.
    Right:

    http://www.fns.usda.gov/cga/FactSheets/SNAP.htm

    Fine if you don't want any the government does for you with your and everyone else's taxes, guess that you don't use the fire and police either, or highways, or school system, our your basic individual deduction when figuring your taxes, all exactly the same type "handouts" as those USDA programs.

    You don't understand how our system works and somehow feel so superior to those that work within the system as you barely understand it and then you use the parts of the same system that benefit you and don't even know it.

    You are an accountant, you really should know how our government works, what pays for all we do and with what.



  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    Guilherme - every time this or a similar subject comes up you and a few others condescend and patronize the little women. If you've got a problem with the responses you get with your attitude, you're going to have to deal with it like a big boy.

    Since you do not live in this region, you have no way of knowing what the ag communities are doing to protect and expand their industries. I've touched upon some efforts that are in fact successful. Some efforts will not be successful for a variety of reasons. You want more information? Google it.

    You're a fool to think that the only possible method of food production is the one you personally endorse or are familiar with. On smaller acreages, and near urban centers, a farmer can often make a better living if he sells his products directly to the public. Their efforts are not intended to replace the existing system.

    What's the matter? Are you jealous that a farmer in another region might be a better businessman?
    Once again you don't answer any questions with substance only with an ad hominem.

    Long ago I learned to distinguish "table pounding" from substantive discussion. And substantive accomplishment. You're engaging in table pounding. That suggests that there is no substance to discuss.

    Since that is the level on which you want to carry on a conversation have fun talking to yourself.

    G.
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  11. #111
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    All I know is that I have a greater risk of getting sick eating a fast food hamburger or buying and consuming packaged spinach or salad mix( all which have been USDA approved & inspected) then I ever will consuming the raw milk I get from my cow each day. Carry on folks.


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  12. #112
    Bluey is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    All I know is that I have a greater risk of getting sick eating a fast food hamburger or buying and consuming packaged spinach or salad mix( all which have been USDA approved & inspected) then I ever will consuming the raw milk I get from my cow each day. Carry on folks.
    That is only if your cow is vaccinated properly is kept clean and stays clean, doesn't drink contaminated water or gets sick, as I assume you are not testing the milk every milking, as commercial dairies do.



  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post

    You know what the biggest of all the USDA programs are?
    Food stamps. Is over half of their budget.
    Right:

    http://www.fns.usda.gov/cga/FactSheets/SNAP.htm
    Bluey, you are taking the subject OFF TOPIC because you have no answer for the WASTE of our money propping up Big Ag companies that already makes nice profits so you divert the conversation to Food Stamps. Yes, I know that is for food stamps too...but we weren't talking about that were we? There is a heck of a lot of waste in that program also.

    We were talking about subsidies paid to farmers to not grow crops..in other words to do NOTHING and for crop insurance that has payouts beyond sanity...at least that is what I'm talking about. As usual when you don't have an answer for something someone posts, you just attack them instead and divert the topic to something you are comfortable with.

    Seriously trying to have a discussion with you is pointless.



  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    Bluey, you are taking the subject OFF TOPIC because you have no answer for the WASTE of our money propping up Big Ag companies that already makes nice profits so you divert the conversation to Food Stamps. Yes, I know that is for food stamps too...but we weren't talking about that were we? There is a heck of a lot of waste in that program also.

    We were talking about subsidies paid to farmers to not grow crops..in other words to do NOTHING and for crop insurance that has payouts beyond sanity...at least that is what I'm talking about. As usual when you don't have an answer for something someone posts, you just attack them instead and divert the topic to something you are comfortable with.

    Seriously trying to have a discussion with you is pointless.
    You brought that topic to this thread about RAW MILK, not your biased idea of "corporate welfare".
    Even then, you missed that is a much more complicated and larger topic that you seem to know about.

    Seriously, trying to have a discussion with you is pointless, as you say.



  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    Long ago I learned to distinguish "table pounding" from substantive discussion. And substantive accomplishment.
    And long ago, I learned to distinguish real conversation from internet trolling and baiting.

    It's just pointless to engage such people.
    Last edited by JSwan; Feb. 4, 2013 at 04:58 PM.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    You brought that topic to this thread about RAW MILK, not your biased idea of "corporate welfare".
    Even then, you missed that is a much more complicated and larger topic that you seem to know about.

    Seriously, trying to have a discussion with you is pointless, as you say.
    Ditto what JSwan just said to G. All you do is bait people who you don't agree with. You are quite a bully and quite unpleasant more often than not. When you can't "win" the discussion, you simply attack someone with winky snarky little faces and sarcasm.


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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    Ditto what JSwan just said to G. All you do is bait people who you don't agree with. You are quite a bully and quite unpleasant more often than not. When you can't "win" the discussion, you simply attack someone with winky snarky little faces and sarcasm.
    Sorry, I won't get personal and try to be insulting, as you well know, just keep at that all by yourself.

    As already explained before, go find out who the USDA is and what they do for ALL farmers.

    Go check them out yourself, googling what others say is just not enough.



  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    All I know is that I have a greater risk of getting sick eating a fast food hamburger or buying and consuming packaged spinach or salad mix( all which have been USDA approved & inspected) then I ever will consuming the raw milk I get from my cow each day. Carry on folks.
    Getting sick? What kind of foodborne illness are you discussing? ECO157:H7? Drinking raw milk, being used to that and adapting your resident microbes, and from your own cow in good health and condition, I'd suppose. I have no problem with that.

    But honestly fast food hamburgers, wayyyy less likely on the grand scale of things. Most foodborne illness is never reported, especially staph & salmonella and listeria is often near impossible to track because of the long incubation period and how it is often a general type illness, if any symptoms at all, in an immunocompetent population.

    I don't think the PSA was meant for someone that grew up with raw milk, is well adapted, and immunocompetent. But when it's marketed as a miracle cure and safe for every person and every generation, that is what worries me. Food safety, HACCP, USDA regulations, etc aren't bulletproof because microbes are so incredibly versatile, but sometimes, it's easier to stack the deck in someone's favor than not, especially when they may not have that adapted immune system.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Sorry, I won't get personal and try to be insulting, as you well know, just keep at that all by yourself.

    As already explained before, go find out who the USDA is and what they do for ALL farmers.

    Go check them out yourself, googling what others say is just not enough.
    Does HSUS own the USDA too, Bluey?
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Does HSUS own the USDA too, Bluey?
    They are certainly working on it....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
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