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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Don't believe everything you hear...
    But they heard it in vet school so it must be true!
    From AliCat518 "Seriously, why would you NOT put fried chicken in your purse?!"



  2. #22
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    Anybody up for debating organic vs conventional now??
    Feeling frisky, eh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Feeling frisky, eh?
    Let's blame it on the pregnancy, shall we???
    From AliCat518 "Seriously, why would you NOT put fried chicken in your purse?!"



  4. #24
    Bluey is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustbreeches View Post
    But they heard it in vet school so it must be true!
    Some times we tend to hear with our preconceptions, coming up with something that may not have been quite what was stated, considering the context.

    Information is not only good data in, digest it and good data out.
    Some times, it is good data in, scrambled data out, or worse, at times is outright garbage in and, well, can't get then but garbage out, short of miracles.

    I try, as everyone else, get good data in and provide good data out, but, well, some times, it doesn't work that way.

    "Trust and verify" are good three words to live by.



  5. #25
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    We always fed (and my parents still do) all the dairy calves raw colostrum from their mother or another recently freshened cow. That was how they stayed healthiest- I don't think pasteurizing the milk would give the calves the gut flora they needed. I grew up on raw milk and so did generations of my family. I think any mass-produced food will can get contaminated- peanut butter, cantalope, strawberries all caused food borne illness. Raw dairies also test for TB and in this state have to be inspected and certified Grade A. Everyone can make their own choice on what they want to drink.

    Edited to add- older calves get regular unpasteurized milk...colostrum for the babies.



  6. #26
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    I am done. I have deleted my post since apparently I am completely ignorant person. Thanks for picking on me and making me feel like a shitty person.



  7. #27
    Bluey is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayfair View Post
    We always fed (and my parents still do) all the dairy calves raw colostrum from their mother or another recently freshened cow. That was how they stayed healthiest- I don't think pasteurizing the milk would give the calves the gut flora they needed. I grew up on raw milk and so did generations of my family. I think any mass-produced food will can get contaminated- peanut butter, cantalope, strawberries all caused food borne illness. Raw dairies also test for TB and in this state have to be inspected and certified Grade A. Everyone can make their own choice on what they want to drink.

    Edited to add- older calves get regular unpasteurized milk...colostrum for the babies.
    "Mass produced" is not the only one that gets contaminated.
    As a percentage, more "organic" , not mass produced produce tested postitive than commercial produce, as per USDA statistics for the past several years now.
    Makes sense, since commercial produce is handled and washed with the idea of cleaning it at different stages, unlike small producer's produce, that is just harvested and sold as is.

    This is a complicated topic, as hygiene all along the process of procuring food, to the time we eat it, has several chances of becoming contaminated by not raised/harvested/washed/handled/prepared/cooked/presented properly.



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Pasteurization is only part of the answer.
    The other big piece is the USDA TB testing and eradication program.
    I agree that there were multiple steps in the process of TB elimination (including legally mandated quarantine in TB sanitariums).

    But a really simple step is just pasteurizing the milk.

    We often forget that our extremely healthy world is a relatively recent phenomenon. And is the result of a lot of steps taken by our great-grandparents.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


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  9. #29
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    I work at and on a goat dairy. We make cheese.

    By law, everything MUST be pasteurized. While I completely understand the safety concerns and cleanliness laws and why they're there, I tell you, pasteurized cheese does not even begin to compare to cheese we have made with raw milk.

    I would not buy raw milk from an unknown source. Then again, I rarely buy raw anything, meat included, from a source I don't know. I have a very delicate immune system and have no interest in being sick more than I have to be.

    I have never ever once had an issue with raw milk or cheese from our own goats or the dairy goats. We are very clean and sanitary in our processes. As we must be, the Inspectors are very grouchy picky people. (Said with a smile)

    All of our baby goats when bottle raised get raw milk (because we test yearly for CAE, a goat disease and are clean). All the goats are also tested for TB and another disease, Brucelosis? My spell check can't seem to recognize it.

    Anyhow...I don't really like milk at all. But I do like cheese. Should people be able to buy raw milk? I'm rather torn - I'd like to say they could but humans these days lack an awful lot of common sense and milk needs to be handled properly.
    ~ The Goat Whisperer
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epona142 View Post
    All the goats are also tested for TB and another disease, Brucelosis? My spell check can't seem to recognize it.
    Close. Brucellosis-- Brucella abortus is a zoonotic organism that causes Bang's disease in cattle and Brucella melitensis is the species seen in goats; undulant fever in humans.

    Transmitted in milk and in fluids and placental tissue of infected animals.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #31
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    I buy raw milk from a dairy near my house... In fact the Kitchenaid is whipping up a batch of butter from their raw cream as we speak. I can see into the barn from the stand where they sell it and it's impeccably clean. They are also extremely careful about inspecting and having it tested. We've had no issues whatsoever to this point and I trust the farm owners very much. On top of it, it's absolutely delicious. I can't believe how good it tastes. It's been a godsend for my SO who is lactose intolerant. He can consume the raw milk, cream, and butter with no problem whatsoever. I'm going to try my hand at cheesemaking for him this summer You can't believe how happy he was to pour that first glass of milk!


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedmondDressage View Post
    I buy raw milk from a dairy near my house... In fact the Kitchenaid is whipping up a batch of butter from their raw cream as we speak. I can see into the barn from the stand where they sell it and it's impeccably clean. They are also extremely careful about inspecting and having it tested. We've had no issues whatsoever to this point and I trust the farm owners very much. On top of it, it's absolutely delicious. I can't believe how good it tastes. It's been a godsend for my SO who is lactose intolerant. He can consume the raw milk, cream, and butter with no problem whatsoever. I'm going to try my hand at cheesemaking for him this summer You can't believe how happy he was to pour that first glass of milk!
    I was raised on raw milk according to my mother who I'm quite sure would know. I'm lactose intolerant also and have had several people suggest I try raw milk and such products also for that reason. I'm interested to see your husband does so much better on it. I will still eat the occasional cheese. I dream of making my own cheese curd...I LOVE that stuff..and my own butter.

    We have a farm down the road from here where you buy it by shares which is how you acquire it legally in my state. It is a clean and professionally run place and I know these folks pretty well. I have no fear at all from the idea of raw milk but then I raise my own meats and eggs here and I understand and accept the risks of eating such foods and feel way safer this way...not mention I enjoy the higher quality. I would rather eat such foods knowing where they come from and how they are raised...ie without antibiotics and other stuff that I really don't want in my food chain.

    I do believe that people should have the right to make informed decisions and be free to consume whatever they want from where ever they want. We all have our own comfort zones and what is important to us.


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    I was raised on raw milk according to my mother who I'm quite sure would know. I'm lactose intolerant also and have had several people suggest I try raw milk and such products also for that reason. I'm interested to see your husband does so much better on it. I will still eat the occasional cheese. I dream of making my own cheese curd...I LOVE that stuff..and my own butter.

    We have a farm down the road from here where you buy it by shares which is how you acquire it legally in my state. It is a clean and professionally run place and I know these folks pretty well. I have no fear at all from the idea of raw milk but then I raise my own meats and eggs here and I understand and accept the risks of eating such foods and feel way safer this way...not mention I enjoy the higher quality. I would rather eat such foods knowing where they come from and how they are raised...ie without antibiotics and other stuff that I really don't want in my food chain.

    I do believe that people should have the right to make informed decisions and be free to consume whatever they want from where ever they want. We all have our own comfort zones and what is important to us.
    I lived on a farm where we had several show cows and have drunk raw milk and thoroughly enjoy it.
    However, I don't think that raw vs. pasteurized will make a significant difference in truly lactose-intolerant individuals, because pasteurization doesn't create lactose, cows do.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #34
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    Dang Ghazzu..that's too bad. I've not been formally tested for lactose intolerance as I have with gluten but I sure can show digestive symptoms after eating or drinking milk. I can take the lactaid pills and they help if I'm really going to feast on something really full of milk.

    Thanks for the info.



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post

    I do believe that people should have the right to make informed decisions and be free to consume whatever they want from where ever they want. We all have our own comfort zones and what is important to us.

    That's exactly it. I think people should know the possible risks and benefits both ways before being able to purchase raw milk and especially giving it to immunocompromised sections of the population. Education is paramount and for an educated, often rural living adult, go for it. But sterilized city people who have no idea of what can go wrong...it's very sad. Maybe giving people a sheet or test signing what's the risk/benefits before they buy would be a way to do it, hah.

    I'm lactose intolerant. Zero difference for me in ability to consume re raw vs pasteurized, fwiw. I just do the lactase pills and suck it up knowning life will be a little uncomfortable for those delicious bites of cheese! For milk, I just buy the lactose free now and that works. I just need lactose free sour cream and cheese available.

    A family friend that was a dairy farmer left his calves on their mothers for 3-4 days, but often they were rejected before long. Kinda a cruddy gene pool of mothers, but his herd was strong and healthy with a low somatic cell count. Just one factor along with clean bedding and quiet staff, but perhaps one worth looking at sometime.



  16. #36
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    I'm a big believer in labeling. I get furious when I buy cheese and don't realize until I get it home that it is a raw milk cheese. Raw milk and raw milk cheese is probably safe for us because we don't have any pregnant women or immune compromised people or young children at home, and it comes from a well run local dairy. I shudder when I think of a pregnant woman consuming raw milk, developing listeria, and losing her baby. Labeling needs to be very obvious and very specific so that everyone knows what they are buying and what are the risks. Then, they can make an informed choice.



  17. #37
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    Sadder yet is when pregnant women don't realize or know that they shouldn't be consuming raw milk/raw milk cheese/processed deli meats...that includes Subway folks.

    I have spoken to a lot of women my age (mid twenties) that just don't know...



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by starrunner View Post
    Sadder yet is when pregnant women don't realize or know that they shouldn't be consuming raw milk/raw milk cheese/processed deli meats...that includes Subway folks.

    I have spoken to a lot of women my age (mid twenties) that just don't know...
    processed deli meats? How is that dangerous?

    Well, as to the raw milk/cheese thing...most people don't even realize that milk comes from cows anymore....along with the rest of the food pyramid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  19. #39
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    Listeria monocytogenes which is a cause of abortion in pregnant women and can cause disease/fatalities in immunocompromised as well (transplant patients, chemo, etc). Deli meats, soft cheese, unwashed fruits and veggies...



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKB View Post
    I'm a big believer in labeling. I get furious when I buy cheese and don't realize until I get it home that it is a raw milk cheese. Raw milk and raw milk cheese is probably safe for us because we don't have any pregnant women or immune compromised people or young children at home, and it comes from a well run local dairy. I shudder when I think of a pregnant woman consuming raw milk, developing listeria, and losing her baby. Labeling needs to be very obvious and very specific so that everyone knows what they are buying and what are the risks. Then, they can make an informed choice.
    In most states, you just can't buy raw milk cheese so unknowingly so you must be in a state with some unusual labeling or lack of it. I would LOVE to find it and try it but in Virginia, you have to "own" the cow before partaking of anything made from raw milk.

    The crazy thing is that anyone can consume meat from the grocery store and consume MRSA or C-Diff...(not making that up...studies have shown a large % of meat in the grocery store is contaminated)...germs are everywhere and some are more dangerous than others. I agree with labeling though and think that is a good idea. I have to follow strict labeling laws for our farm's products before I can sell them to anyone in my state.

    I am asked all the time if I sell raw milk. I send them to the farm down the road. NO way am I going to be tied down to milking cows...I'm busy enough with what I have going on now. My point is that the demand is really growing for it.

    starrunner...you have a good point about people who are not used to "normal" food. If you've had irradiated or sterilized food all your life, you might be in for a surprise eating something that hasn't been treated like that.



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