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  1. #1
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    Default PSA on raw milk warnings:

    We have before discussed raw milk and the whys and why nots of selling it to others.

    The CDC has again warned about it in the new report on food safety, according to this veterinary report:

    http://www.bovinevetonline.com/newsl...188889281.html

    We live longer and healthier in many ways than humans before because we have learned more and more about the world around us, especially that of microbes.

    That has permitted us to learn about hygiene in ways we previously could not have, to prevent illness.
    How to acquire, handle and process our foods better to stay safe is one more of those ways and that includes some sensible processing of milk.


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  2. #2
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    Default

    They also say leafy greens cause 23% of of food borne illnesses.
    And I'd argue there are more weird food allergies, asthma, coletis, chrones, celiac and ulcers now.

    The only food I can recommend is a grain of salt, and keep a can of pennies so you will have an ounce of common cents.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
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    Default

    Not to dispute your article but this one was posted not long ago on Facebook. I don't drink milk so I have no dog in this fight but this report sounds quite different:

    http://www.foodrenegade.com/governme...raw-milk-safe/



  4. #4
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    Default

    Hmm.. the foodrenegade article is interesting. However, 42 people sick a year doesn't make it "safe", since many of those sickened are children and they get very very sick.
    "Here? It's like asking a bunch of rednecks which is better--Ford or Chevy?" ~Deltawave



  5. #5
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    Default

    If you milk your own cow, you can get a home pasteurization kit. Or just heat it up to the appropriate temperature for the proper amount of time on your stove. Child mortality was much higher in the 'good ol' days'.


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  6. #6
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beethoven View Post
    Most dairies won't even feed their newborn calves raw milk!
    Where did you hear that?
    From AliCat518 "Seriously, why would you NOT put fried chicken in your purse?!"



  7. #7
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    I truly do not understand the hysteria around drinking raw milk. For heaven's sake, tobacco products sicken and kill far more people every year and those are perfectly legal. If I choose to purchase and drink raw milk (which I do!), that should be my decision to make.

    There was a listeria outbreak in 2011 that was linked to a contaminated cantaloupe. Should cantaloupes be banned? There was a E. coli outbreak several years ago due to contaminated spinach. Are leafy greens now considered dangerous?

    I agree with Chall - a little common sense goes a long way.


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  8. #8
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    This is a debate that can get intensely heated. I guess some people feel like they want access to raw milk & are willing to live with the risk.

    A lot of the dairy farmers I knew did drink raw milk out of the tank & they did it at the place I lived/worked. Keep in mind that getting it straight out of the cow & drinking it means that there isn't too much time for the bugs to grow. It doesn't take long to get a nice microbe party going in nutrient dense stuff like milk. I have a hard time believing there would be any way to package & market it at stores safely.

    That said, I am a pretty strong believer in the hygiene hypothesis. if we all lived on the farm & drank super fresh milk, I imagine we'd be better for it.

    I never drank the raw milk at the place I worked (research center in Germany) b/c it really was -straight- from the cow & wasn't cold. that skeezed me out.


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  9. #9
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    Raw foods, not matter how carefully handled, carry with them a significantly increased risk of pathogen contamination than processed foods. This is one of those "inconvenient truths" that the organic/raw/locavor foot zealots choose to ignore.

    If you want to take the risk of eating raw foods then God Bless You. I do it every night because every night for dinner I enjoy a green salad. We take standard precautions and I've not suffered any illness or injury that I'm aware of. There are places in the world where I've traveled that I would not, under any circumstances, eat anything that was not fully cooked.

    Put another way, I recognize the risk and manage it.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10
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    We drink raw milk every freaking day and have for nearly four years now. DH and his eight siblings grew up on it; now most of his siblings all have milk cows for their kids. Never an illness. Never.

    Beethoven you remind me of a city bred large animal vet student I knew once that didn't even know what a jug was while working on a Montana sheep ranch. I'd be careful with your excited statements. Dairies don't feed raw milk to their calves because they SELL the milk! Hence...the concept... of the business... If they bottle feed a calf cow's milk (instead of milk replacer) they absolutely do feed them the raw cow's milk, especially if they're doing it for the colostrum. And when they first start those poor weeto calves on the milk replacer they mix it with raw unadulterated cow's milk. Spouting nonsense.

    Milk is a petri dish, like many other foods. Given the opportunity to go bad, it will. But it doesn't come out of a healthy cow as a dangerous substance and handled with an iota of sense it is a very safe food. And for that matter, it takes two minutes to heat it and then throw it in the fridge and then it's been disinfected. It's absolutely no different than most other foods.

    The ONLY reason it is so heavily regulated and controlled is because of the money behind the dairy industry. The only reason it is a topic of conversation now is that so many people want to be able to buy and sell raw milk and it's illegal. Unlike things like energy drinks, food dyes, MSG, and pretty much anything from China.

    ETA that nonsense really ticks me off too because if it wasn't for the ignorance and bias I could sell some of our milk to all the people that want to buy it. I have a list of people that want it, we have plenty to spare, and I can't do a thing about it in my state. 30 miles away in the next state I can sell it as pet food but Montana has more ranchers in the state government so can't do it here. Being able to sell this milk for $5 to $10 a gallon would certainly help with the hay bill seeing as my husband's company is shutting down in a matter of weeks. But because of nonsense we can't sell a drop of it. But I can sell lettuce and spinach at the farmers markets all day long-I should be able to sell the milk too.


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  11. #11
    Bluey is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Four years and you have been winning the lottery so you think everyone else can try?

    I grew up milking by hand and we boiled our milk in a special double pot, where the milk would rise and go thru a little hole back into the pot for 15 minutes, before it was considered safe to drink.
    That was over half a century ago.
    I think people today have it so good, we forget some basics still apply.
    We should not become careless with what took centuries to learn, at our cost.
    The difference, we know so much more today why it made sense not to drink raw milk.



  12. #12
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    Pasteurized milk is always safe? Oh?

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...la-typhimurium

    http://www.cdc.gov/EIS/downloads/200...Conference.pdf (Page 62)

    The milk I drink is raw, local, tested for pathogens and from cows that are treated humanely and fed organic grass hay in the winter, pastured in the summer. There is very little risk. Does your pasteurized milk publish results like this?

    http://windsordairy.com/weekly-raw-m...t-results.html


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  13. #13
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    I think anyone should be able to buy it if they want to. Much more than four years if you reread that and think about it, just in my circle of experience that is many many years and gallons of milk safely down the hatch. It's not near the lottery that you make it out to be and you know what, it's none of your damn business if someone else wants to have a gallon of raw milk or a bunch of organic spinach or organic apple cider.

    I don't care how you boiled your food fifty years ago, knock yourself out. What basics are you even talking about? Cleanliness and refrigeration? They still apply. With the added benefit of bleach.


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboymom View Post
    The ONLY reason it is so heavily regulated and controlled is because of the money behind the dairy industry. The only reason it is a topic of conversation now is that so many people want to be able to buy and sell raw milk and it's illegal. Unlike things like energy drinks, food dyes, MSG, and pretty much anything from China.
    Balderdash.

    The reason it's regulated is that once upon a time, not too very many years ago, large numbers of people contracted TB from unprocessed milk. TB in the U.S. is now extraordinarily rare. Guess why?

    You can apply this exact, same rationale to most of the regulated products under the USDA/FDA aegis.

    That fact that any given person or group of persons has long enjoyed this product in modern times does not erase the history that caused the product to be regulated in the first instance.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


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  15. #15
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    Look at the states where it is most highly regulated and who put that the laws into play. It's regulated differently in each state. You'll never convince me that it's pure public safety now. Not when there really are ways to manage the safe sale of home produced milk. I'm all for commercial dairies but I think people should have the option; I'd happily get a license to sell it now but the red tape and requirements are mind-boggling. We're still trying to figure out if it's something we can pull off.

    Beethoven we don't heat our milk (ie, pastuerize it) but if someone wanted to do that I was saying it is quick and easy to do. At first the "milk" of the cow is mostly colostrum and gradually it gives way to being milk. It's a gradual process.

    You can buy a completely inspected and disinfected piece of food from anywhere and take it home and leave it on the counter and it will go bad. Milk is regulated tightly because it is believed to be dangerous right from the minute it exits the cow. I think there is a middle road where small producers can provide a safe product for the people that want to buy it.

    http://www.fda.gov/Safety/Recalls/default.htm just for kicks.
    Last edited by cowboymom; Feb. 2, 2013 at 12:54 PM.


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  16. #16
    Bluey is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Years and years and years ago we had a goat dairy.
    We sold our milk to people doctors sent to us, if they had need of other than cow's milk.

    Then regulations became so strict, we would have to buy machinery to process the milk, we quit milking goats.

    At that time, no one complained, we all understood that it was the safest way to protect consumers from themselves, no matter how safe the milk may be, as much of the illness is from consumers mistakes, like not boiling the milk enough.

    To all then, that milk was processed for safety was a rule like all driving on the right side of the road, good for all to get along with the least accidents.

    After decades of safe milk and roads, now we want to go back to take our chances, drink raw milk and what next, drive on whichever side we prefer, everyone else beware?



  17. #17
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    If people live on a farm, are used to a region's organisms, grow up drinking raw dairy, etc then I have no issue with them drinking it. It's their risk, but their microflora and immune system is far better adapted.

    But for a person living in a city to get the idea that it's great to drink raw milk and rushes out and gives this to their children...I find it reckless from a microbiological standpoint.

    But people have their preconceived notion and assume that food regulation is out to get them or whatever. But some of these people are the ones that scream the loudest when a food recall, etc occurs. Doesn't go both ways.

    Our food supply is the safest that it's ever been and I like keeping it that way.

    -SR (who currently is a food microbiologist with a masters in bacteriology. )


    5 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by starrunner View Post
    If people live on a farm, are used to a region's organisms, grow up drinking raw dairy, etc then I have no issue with them drinking it. It's their risk, but their microflora and immune system is far better adapted.
    This is exactly what I tell people who inquire about raw milk. I just presented to a group of 50 teachers from across the state yesterday, and raw milk came up. If you own a cow, you drink the same well water, run over the same dirt and are the one sterilizing your equipment, knock yourself out if you want raw milk. You have been exposed to much of the same stuff as that cow. Living a sterile, antibacterial hand cleanser life in the city drinking tap water doesn't give you much exposure to anything.

    Many dairies, including my own, feed raw milk to our calves. It comes out of the hospital pen, a group of cows being treated so the milk can't go into the bulk tank to be sold. Our hospital pen also includes cows that have calved within the last 3 days. Their first milk is collected separately to be fed as colostrum to calves, but over the next few milkings their milk transitions from colostrum to milk.
    Many dairies do not have enough of this hospital pen milk to feed, so they use replacer. Some dairies pasteurize, but one published study showed that 75% of the milk dairies pasteurized for their own use as calf milk came out with higher bacteria counts than when it went in due to improper use of the equipment.

    We made the decision to use our excess milk because we feel like our calves do much better on it than they did on replacer, much like I choose to breastfeed rather than use an oil based formula.

    My children have never had raw milk, I buy my milk at the store just like everybody else. If raw milk shares are something you want to utilize, I encourage you to visit the facility, request to see the SCC's and PI counts of their bulk tank. Ask about protocol for sick cows. Read up on the milk born illnesses you can contract from raw milk.

    Anybody up for debating organic vs conventional now??
    From AliCat518 "Seriously, why would you NOT put fried chicken in your purse?!"


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beethoven View Post
    Don't drink raw milk. There are so many pathogens in it! It's pasteurized for our safety! I have heard that dairies won't even feed their newborn calves raw milk!
    Don't believe everything you hear...
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    Balderdash.

    The reason it's regulated is that once upon a time, not too very many years ago, large numbers of people contracted TB from unprocessed milk. TB in the U.S. is now extraordinarily rare. Guess why?

    You can apply this exact, same rationale to most of the regulated products under the USDA/FDA aegis.

    That fact that any given person or group of persons has long enjoyed this product in modern times does not erase the history that caused the product to be regulated in the first instance.

    G.

    Pasteurization is only part of the answer.
    The other big piece is the USDA TB testing and eradication program.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



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