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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul. 13, 2011
    Posts
    127

    Default Rolled toe/cut-out pad - how long is too long?

    My horse does not have evenly shaped front hooves. One is flatter and has lower, somewhat under-run heels. My farrier backs up the toes on both fronts, and rolls them.

    The flatter, lower-heeled leg developed slight tendonititis during the fall - heat, slight swelling but ultrasound showed no lesion. Horse was never lame but was shorter in stride.

    My vet recommended a degree pad on that hoof to lift the heel and reduce pressure on the tendon. The farrier cut out the center so that most of the frog and some sole was exposed to prevent any bacteria/thrush, and to keep the frog in contact with the footing of the ring when working, and the ground in turnout.

    After a couple of weeks of hand walking and icing, the swelling and heat have gone. Horse is now back in flat work and moving out well.The frog and sole has remained very healthy through two 6 week shoeing cycles.

    Is this generally a temporary solution, or if it works, should the pad stay?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov. 22, 2007
    Location
    Port Charlotte, FL
    Posts
    3,394



  3. #3

    Default

    My horse had to wear egg bar shoes and a wedge pad on one foot and a flat pad on the other for the same problem you are talking about. I was using a wonderful farrier in GA who came up with that shoeing solution but after I moved my new farrier has worked to get my horses angles even and he is not out of egg bar shoes and wears shock tamer pads all the way around. Full pads up front and rim pads in back. Talk to your farrier a good one should be able to slowly bring your horses angles even. It takes time but it can be fixed. Good luck!



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul. 13, 2011
    Posts
    127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
    What does your farrier say about it?
    He's a man of few words, so not much.... said it's all looking good. I should have asked him how long, and will when I next see him. I was just wondering if there's any downside for keeping the pad on.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 27, 2009
    Location
    Upstate NY
    Posts
    1,822

    Default

    Why does your farrier think underrun heels look good?
    Trainer's website - photos of my horse Airborne under About and Francesca Edwards also in media page 1

    http://www.patricianorciadressage.com/



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul. 13, 2011
    Posts
    127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambitious Kate View Post
    Why does your farrier think underrun heels look good?
    No, I guess I wasn't clear. He doesn't think the underrun heels are good; he thinks the degree pad that is raising the heel slightly is good in that it is helping reduce stress on the possible tendon situation.

    I will be asking my vet what the time-line might be to keep the degree pad on - I was just curious to hear from any Cothers, particularly the hoof/farrier folks, who had some experience of this.

    Thanks, jrbequestrian, for your earlier response.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2011
    Location
    Cool, CA
    Posts
    41

    Default

    A wedge pad is usually considered to be a temporary orthopedic 'fix'. In my experience, a wedge pad always continues to crush the heels, unless a firm packing material is put into the sole of the foot to help support the heels.

    If the horse needs to stay in a wedge, I'd prefer to use an actual wedged shoe, as they seem to have a smaller affect on the crushing of the heel. And in that instance, I would want either a wedged bar shoe for support, or a wedged shoe with some heel support like impression material or Equithane
    Matthew Kiwala
    Foothill Farriers
    (530) 870-4390



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb. 18, 2006
    Location
    east central Illinois and working north to the 'burbs
    Posts
    3,836

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Foothill_Farrier View Post
    A wedge pad is usually considered to be a temporary orthopedic 'fix'.
    It Depends.
    In my experience, a wedge pad always continues to crush the heels, unless a firm packing material is put into the sole of the foot to help support the heels.
    So, once again, It Depends, right?

    If the horse needs to stay in a wedge, I'd prefer to use an actual wedged shoe, as they seem to have a smaller affect on the crushing of the heel.
    Why do you suppose that is? Is is possible that when a horse is standing on a soft or otherwise deformable surface, the wedged heel actually sinks into the surface and allows the surface to provide supplemental support to the foot? And, if that is the case, doesn't the wedged heel actually do just the opposite of what it is intended to do?
    And in that instance, I would want either a wedged bar shoe for support, or a wedged shoe with some heel support like impression material or Equithane
    If the bar does what it is intended to do, what, other than the width of the bar, is the bar going to do to support the structures at the back of the hoof? How much different does a wedged shoe with some heel support act as opposed to a shoe with a wedged frog support pad and in the instance of a full wedge pad with frog support, supplemental packing such as DIM or equethane in place under the pad?

    What about the weight of a wedged heel shoe as opposed to a flat shoe and wedge pad? What potential changes in gait, etc might one expect?



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2010
    Posts
    2,405

    Default

    Personally, I would start by making sure the trim is correct. Ensuring that the underrun heel is being trimmed/addressed properly so that the heel is at the back of the foot where it belongs is, IMO, actually the most important part. Start with the trim and go from there. Best of luck!



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2011
    Location
    Cool, CA
    Posts
    41

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    It Depends.

    So, once again, It Depends, right?
    Everything 'depends', doesn't it? We are talking horses here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    Why do you suppose that is? Is is possible that when a horse is standing on a soft or otherwise deformable surface, the wedged heel actually sinks into the surface and allows the surface to provide supplemental support to the foot? And, if that is the case, doesn't the wedged heel actually do just the opposite of what it is intended to do?
    Well Rick, that depends. Out here, we don't get to have hooves sink in the mud for more than 3~4 months out of the year, so a lot of the neat modifications that other farriers get to use don't do much good out here. (Not that I don't try to use them anyway.) It's hard rocky clay 8 months of the year, so the horses are dealing with a relatively unyielding surface. Now if you want to talk arena..

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    If the bar does what it is intended to do, what, other than the width of the bar, is the bar going to do to support the structures at the back of the hoof? How much different does a wedged shoe with some heel support act as opposed to a shoe with a wedged frog support pad and in the instance of a full wedge pad with frog support, supplemental packing such as DIM or equethane in place under the pad?
    Is this an AFA test, or an attempt to help out a horse owner Rick?

    A bar shoe will reduce heel concussion, and dramatically reduce torque on the foot, which helps to reduce the crushing of the heels. Packing the sole not only protects the foot, but also helps in supporting the whole bony column as well as reducing impact on the hoof wall, and thus the crushed heels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    What about the weight of a wedged heel shoe as opposed to a flat shoe and wedge pad? What potential changes in gait, etc might one expect?
    You forgot to ask about the traction differences between a wedged heel shoe as opposed to a flat shoe and wedge pad.

    Sure. Extra weight is going to affect flight. Weight on different parts of the foot, affect flight differently. You and I both know this. You undoubtedly better than I. The real question here is: Is the difference in gait more detrimental to the horse and owner than the potential lameness issue? Can the horse and owner deal with the difference in gait or should we take the chance on the potential check ligament tear just to try to get the gait we want? (Yes, I just attended the Heumphreus memorial lecture at Davis. The MRI's were pretty interesting.)


    Ultimately, you're tossing out ideas based on your experiences, and I'm doing the same. Neither of us have seen the horse, or even pictures of the feet, so it's a 'what has worked for me' guessing game. YMMV
    Matthew Kiwala
    Foothill Farriers
    (530) 870-4390



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 22, 2007
    Location
    Port Charlotte, FL
    Posts
    3,394

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Foothill_Farrier View Post
    . . .
    Is this an AFA test, or an attempt to help out a horse owner Rick?
    Rick's grammar and vocabulary is too good to be used on an AFA test.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb. 18, 2006
    Location
    east central Illinois and working north to the 'burbs
    Posts
    3,836

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Foothill_Farrier View Post
    Is this an AFA test, or an attempt to help out a horse owner Rick?
    The Socratic method is designed to help all concerned.
    A bar shoe will reduce heel concussion, and dramatically reduce torque on the foot, which helps to reduce the crushing of the heels.
    How, and, why?

    Packing the sole not only protects the foot, but also helps in supporting the whole bony column as well as reducing impact on the hoof wall, and thus the crushed heels.
    While I am in basic agreement with this statement, please explain how and why, in and of itself, packing the sole is effective roe remediating crushed heels.
    You forgot to ask about the traction differences between a wedged heel shoe as opposed to a flat shoe and wedge pad.
    So, enlighten us.

    Sure. Extra weight is going to affect flight. Weight on different parts of the foot, affect flight differently. You and I both know this. You undoubtedly better than I. The real question here is: Is the difference in gait more detrimental to the horse and owner than the potential lameness issue? Can the horse and owner deal with the difference in gait or should we take the chance on the potential check ligament tear just to try to get the gait we want? (Yes, I just attended the Heumphreus memorial lecture at Davis. The MRI's were pretty interesting.)
    is a torn(resected)check ligament necessarily a bad thing? Why or why not?
    Ultimately, you're tossing out ideas based on your experiences, and I'm doing the same.
    Am I? Does education and the experiences of others play any role?

    Neither of us have seen the horse, or even pictures of the feet, so it's a 'what has worked for me' guessing game. YMMV
    Have I offered any advice as regards "what has worked for me"?



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