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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccoronios View Post
    The other question these gentlemen had concerned competition in futurities and age-specific classes, which issues don't concern the h/j/d/e world as much, if at all. If a horse can only (logically) compete in 3 yo competitions once (one year), can all these clones compete? Can only ONE clone compete each year in these age-specific competitions? Or can 10 SLLs compete in 3 yo futurities?

    'tis interesting thinking....
    Huh. Those issues would never have crossed my mind. Interesting food for thought, for sure.



  2. #22
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    Cloning doesn't bother me. It's just like having an identical twin. Seems like less resources wasted by recreating a well-known, successful breeding rather than doing trial-and-error with the same breeding pair (or their descendants) until you re-roll the right set of genetic dice. If you think of Sapphire's clones as her full siblings, it becomes less weird. We consume too much sci-fi


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    Actually, the mechanisms involved in protein synthesis are highly conserved across all cells in all organisms; there are also proofreading mechanisms in place to ensure that the entire process is EXTREMELY accurate (the error rate HAS to be almost zero or life would not exist). But that doesn't really have anything to do with the rest of the post, which is a good explanation based on what is known about the differences in markings when it comes to clones.
    The original explanation was correct, there can be errors or mutations in the copying of DNA into RNA. You'd be surprised how frequently these occur and they don't necessarily mean that life will end. Mutations happen frequently in nature over generations. Another factor is variance in how certain genes are expressed. This results in the differences between the two cloned horses. This phenomenon is also exhibited in identical twins.

    Environmental factors could also contribute (yes in utero) changing the way the gene is expressed.

    We are really only talking about a few misplaced hairs in this case, remember.



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maya01 View Post
    The original explanation was correct, there can be errors or mutations in the copying of DNA into RNA. You'd be surprised how frequently these occur and they don't necessarily mean that life will end. Mutations happen frequently in nature over generations. Another factor is variance in how certain genes are expressed. This results in the differences between the two cloned horses. This phenomenon is also exhibited in identical twins.

    Environmental factors could also contribute (yes in utero) changing the way the gene is expressed.

    We are really only talking about a few misplaced hairs in this case, remember.
    While transcription and translation are not as accurate as DNA replication, there are multiple proofreading mechanisms in place in each step of protein synthesis to ensure accuracy. In translation alone, there are proofreading steps in place for correct aminoacylation of the tRNA molecule, proper codon-anticodon pairing, and also for elongation of the nascent polypeptide chain. I'm not as well versed when it comes to transcription, but I do know that there are proofreading mechanisms in place for that process as well. Saying that errors occur frequently is simply not correct.



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    What I'd like to see, but probably won't, is at least one foal Sapphire herself carries and raises to compare with both the clones and those born to surrogate mothers-- perhaps it would help give us some ideas on how much difference mothering/nurturing styles might make in the performance of genetic offspring.
    The foals carried by the surrogates are her embryo. So the only difference is that she herself isn't physically carrying them.



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star's Ascent View Post
    The foals carried by the surrogates are her embryo. So the only difference is that she herself isn't physically carrying them.
    Right, but I think the environment in the womb is thought to be important in development (this is an area of science in which I'm not at ALL educated, but I believe that statement is true), and the foals born through embryo transfer aren't being raised by Sapphire herself, so the differences could be significant (which I think is the point fish was trying to get across).

    And to whoever brought up the age-restricted divisions: I consider all clones to be individuals and don't see an issue there. Identical twins are genetically the same, but we certainly don't make their parents pick only one of them to be allowed opportunities with the thought that it would somehow create an unfair advantage to them if they were both given the same chances in life.


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    ... and the foals born through embryo transfer aren't being raised by Sapphire herself, so the differences could be significant (which I think is the point fish was trying to get across).
    Yes, she could spend the first six months of the baby's life telling it, "Do NOT touch the wood. EVER!" Like no wire hangers.


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    Right, but I think the environment in the womb is thought to be important in development (this is an area of science in which I'm not at ALL educated, but I believe that statement is true), and the foals born through embryo transfer aren't being raised by Sapphire herself, so the differences could be significant (which I think is the point fish was trying to get across).
    I think this is interesting because a breeder friend of mine actually has perfect case study for this. She bred her big show mare (a maiden) and produced foal A. A is now 6, and a bit of a headcase. Just a spooky, very sensitive horse.

    She sold the mare to someone else but retained breeding rights for 2 embryo transfers. She has an older experienced broodmare that she used to do an embryo transfer of a full sibling to A, and got B.

    B is now 2, and since day one has been the quietest, sweetest tempered baby. Nothing bothers her. Nature or nurture?

    (Side note, A is a bay mare with a sock and face white. B is chestnut with a very small star and no leg white).



  9. #29
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    FWIW, a friend who raises orchids says that the clones (or meristems, as they are called in orchid land) are generally not equal to the "parent."
    The Evil Chem Prof



  10. #30
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    Some of the concerns that I have with cloning also deal with the health of the animal that they are creating. Clones have had some significant health issues with shortened life spans. Is it fair to put this risk on the animal that you are purposely creating with the knowledge that this could happen? Also, if we are to start cloning certain animals for breeding purposes because of the success of the original animal, what about genetic diversity? I can see some people taking this a little too far.



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rescueme View Post
    Clones have had some significant health issues with shortened life spans.
    This statement is always made at least once in every clone thread that pops up here, but I've never been able to find a credible citation that backs it up. Can anyone do that without mentioning Dolly and telomeres? I believe Dolly died of something that is a relatively common killer of sheep, and the telomere thing is so over...



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    This statement is always made at least once in every clone thread that pops up here, but I've never been able to find a credible citation that backs it up. Can anyone do that without mentioning Dolly and telomeres? I believe Dolly died of something that is a relatively common killer of sheep, and the telomere thing is so over...
    Correct. Dolly was euthanized because of a respiratory disease common to sheep that also caused the death of non-cloned sheep living in the same house.

    While she did suffer from arthritis at a relatively early age, my former boss, who is a renowned expert in biotechnology, particularly cloning and genetic engineering, says the Roslin folks allowed Dolly to get ridiculously overweight because everyone wanted to feed her treats.
    Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    This statement is always made at least once in every clone thread that pops up here, but I've never been able to find a credible citation that backs it up. Can anyone do that without mentioning Dolly?
    Since her name has come up, I'll add my favorite joke on the subject.

    Somebody asked Dolly Parton if it bothered her to have the cloned sheep named after her. She replied, "Well, you know the old saying. There's no such thing as ba-a-a-d publicity!"


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  14. #34
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    I opted out of cloning my stallion when he died...MOSTLY because of the financial side, but the other deciding factor was that I truly believe that a special horse is special because of how they were raised, who they were exposed to and the life they lived that influenced them to become who they were. I wasn't wanting genetics so to speak, I wanted my best friend back.


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