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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    ^^^ thank you. Shame on them for not revealing any real research behind their claims. This is so typical of marketing, yet so disappointing.

    However, I still cannot find the statement that "riders should expect to be completely protected from injury," as RAyers noted yesterday. I guess I am missing something.
    If you had read the original ads, both here in the US and UK, you would understand, e.g. The ad with Faith Cooke showing her having a full rotational fall with the statement that the ride walked away injury free when in reality her back and neck were broken and video showning the vest never fully inflated.



  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticky Situation View Post
    To further your MAST pants analogy, they were a perfect example of something that sounded like a good idea in theory (hey, if you limit blood flow to nonessential places like the legs, that results in better perfusion of the vital organs, right?) ... However, once research was actually done comparing outcomes with MAST pants vs. without them, it turned out they didn't work how they were claimed to and caused more harm than they prevented.

    I know I am guilty of saying this ALL THE TIME, but IMO it bears repeating. There are DOZENS of examples I can think of right off the top of my head where "this sounds perfectly plausible" led to "let's do this" and only after the bodies were counted did it become obvious that "this sounds perfectly plausible" was in fact quite WRONG.

    This is why we do research, people.

    Yes, in the old days we didn't have evidence-based decision making and lots of good things happened anyway. And lots of bad things. We can't go back to the old days, where just having a good idea and a product were enough. Well, we CAN, of course--just ask the (I presume) very profitable Point Two corporation, supplement manufacturers, and makers of any number of products that go straight from the drawing board to the SmartPak catalog with little to no actual R&D. But it doesn't mean we SHOULD be doing it this way.
    Click here before you buy.


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  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    However, I still cannot find the statement that "riders should expect to be completely protected from injury," as RAyers noted yesterday. I guess I am missing something.
    This thread from 2010 should explain it. At the top of page 5, I summarized the Faith Cook situation with links to the various claims and facts. Point Two changed their website shortly thereafter.

    I should add that Point Two changed their website -- Faith Cook was the cover girl at that point -- without ever noting their misrepresentation of her injuries.

    ahbaumgartner, you seem to be working really hard to stand up for PointTwo. Please understand that there are some of us here who don't like being lied to and misled repeatedly by a company that sells 'safety' products. Those lies and misdirections are well-documented, while the actual safety of their products is not.



  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    This thread from 2010 should explain it. At the top of page 5, I summarized the Faith Cook situation with links to the various claims and facts. Point Two changed their website shortly thereafter.

    I should add that Point Two changed their website -- Faith Cook was the cover girl at that point -- without ever noting their misrepresentation of her injuries.

    ahbaumgartner, you seem to be working really hard to stand up for PointTwo. Please understand that there are some of us here who don't like being lied to and misled repeatedly by a company that sells 'safety' products. Those lies and misdirections are well-documented, while the actual safety of their products is not.
    This 100 times over!!!
    Kelly Soldavin Harvest Moon Farm
    www.harvestmoonfarmpa.com



  5. #145
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    It's a pity that nobody took any screen-shots of the stuff that used to be up on the Point Two website. It was pretty over the top.
    Click here before you buy.



  6. #146
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    I really am not trying to stand up for P2 (I have an hit air, btw, and that's what i was wearing during the fall I discussed previously). I absolutely hate the idea that there has been false advertising. I deplore false advertising. I just don't want to NOT use something that may help save me from an injury.

    I am using the best evidence I can find, which is very little. I am taking my chances and it seems like my chances are better with the vest than without.

    I have no wish to give a company $$ that lies to consumers. But I also want to be as safe as possible and my attempt at that is independent of whether I approve of a company's advertising policy.



  7. #147
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    I doubt anyone DOESN'T want to be as safe as possible. So it's back to believing, or not, really.

    I'm waiting for more info and will pay cash for an air vest the very day my concerns are adequately addressed.
    Click here before you buy.



  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    I really am not trying to stand up for P2 (I have an hit air, btw, and that's what i was wearing during the fall I discussed previously). I absolutely hate the idea that there has been false advertising. I deplore false advertising. I just don't want to NOT use something that may help save me from an injury.

    I am using the best evidence I can find, which is very little. I am taking my chances and it seems like my chances are better with the vest than without.

    I have no wish to give a company $$ that lies to consumers. But I also want to be as safe as possible and my attempt at that is independent of whether I approve of a company's advertising policy.
    But this too goes back to belief. Even in the motorcycle world there little evidence that shows these products reduce injury. And the only real study resulted in a system that only uses shoulder and clavicle air bags as the result of instrumenting top riders of the world and measuring their crashes. It took 10 years to develop and is a suit that costs something like $12K.

    At the same time, there is a reason motorcycle racing bodies forbid the use of a lanyard. It is dangerous if it does not release. Hence why they use a computer controlled battery operated system contained in the aero wing on the back of the leathers.

    So, in the end if one wishes to be explicitly clear, such as you are asking, the recommendation for these should be:

    They may or may not help or injure. There is little proof of either, however it should be known that failures of the lanyard and inflation mechanism has resulted in either complete failure of the vest to inflate or the rider becoming tightly fastened to the horse. Which by themselves can result in injury.


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  9. #149
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    If the vest fails to inflate, so be it. The chances are it will inflate more often than not. And the cord attached to the lanyard does not look as though it is terribly tough or strong. I do not know what weight it will bear before breaking. But it certainly doesn't look as though it would withstand dragging a body.

    Which reminds me: I need to replace my cord as it looks stretched and frayed...
    A



  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    And the cord attached to the lanyard does not look as though it is terribly tough or strong. I do not know what weight it will bear before breaking. But it certainly doesn't look as though it would withstand dragging a body.
    There are real-life examples.

    Here's another thread, this one from 2011, in which Reed mentions one such event. It happened to someone who posts here but I don't recall who. Reed's post is the sixth from the top.

    I'd also like to call your attention to another post on that thread. Scroll further down the page and you'll see a reply from 'blackwly', who in real life is a UL rider and a neurosurgeon. She pulls a quote which was up on the PointTwo website at that time (July 2011):

    "The PointTwo air jacket almost eliminates the risk of severe and life threatening chest injury for a horse fall resulting in a severe chest impact."
    Yes, this was on the P2 website at that time.

    Today's version of the P2 website shows they've shifted focus from chest injuries to the spinal column.

    When a rider is unseated or thrown from a horse, the Point Two air vest inflates within one tenth of a second to absorb shock, distribute pressure and support a rider’s spinal column. When inflated, the airbag system offers the collar of the neck and trunk more support, thus reducing the risk of over bending the spinal column.
    I suppose they want us to take them at their word. Extensive testing from the world of motor sport indicates otherwise.

    But how can it be that PointTwo puts out that claim about chest injuries -- 'almost eliminates the risk of severe and life threatening chest injury' -- and then, 18 months later, gives you an entirely different reason to use their product, with no mention of the earlier, sweeping, Holy Grail safety claim?

    So then it's back to belief, and you're being asked to believe a serial liar. And they're asking you to put your life in their product.


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  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    If the vest fails to inflate, so be it. The chances are it will inflate more often than not. And the cord attached to the lanyard does not look as though it is terribly tough or strong. I do not know what weight it will bear before breaking. But it certainly doesn't look as though it would withstand dragging a body.

    Which reminds me: I need to replace my cord as it looks stretched and frayed...
    A
    I bet your lanyard will support your entire body weight. I know it holds at least 165lbs.

    Also, tell that to the three folks who I know who have been hung up on their horse after a fall. Even my trainer couldn't break the cord or jimmy the inflation mechanism loose. One had to be cut out.


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  12. #152
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    And the cord attached to the lanyard does not look as though it is terribly tough or strong. I do not know what weight it will bear before breaking. But it certainly doesn't look as though it would withstand dragging a body.
    Jeez, care to bet your life on that? Are your guesses always correct? You can buy FISHING LINE that will bear the weight of a human.
    Click here before you buy.


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  13. #153
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    FWIW - Clayton's family company (Southern Stars Saddlery) is a distributor for Point II air vests.

    I have seen Clayton fall off while wearing one in an Exhibition Eventing class - I think he landed on his feet - and it did deploy. And I can understand him forgetting to attach the lanyard in the warmup after seeing several ULRs jump off to go to the toilet or adjust gear or whatever - Boom, one $50 canister later...



  14. #154
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    Another thread (same topic) worth reading. http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...est+saved+life



  15. #155
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    simple question: Is the 165 weight of the lanyard for a stable weight, not one moving at speed (through the air, etc)? With fishing line, if it is 20 lb test, it will break with a much lighter fish, if that fish is moving... of course.... simple physics... right?
    duh...



  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    simple question: Is the 165 weight of the lanyard for a stable weight, not one moving at speed (through the air, etc)? With fishing line, if it is 20 lb test, it will break with a much lighter fish, if that fish is moving... of course.... simple physics... right?
    duh...

    All great questions. Want to bet your life on your presumed answers being correct, or would you not prefer for someone to really study that first? Or at least make the answers clear (if they are known) in the product information that's available when you choose a product?
    Click here before you buy.


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  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    simple question: Is the 165 weight of the lanyard for a stable weight, not one moving at speed (through the air, etc)? With fishing line, if it is 20 lb test, it will break with a much lighter fish, if that fish is moving... of course.... simple physics... right?
    duh...

    Given that the minimum breaking strength of the canister seal is 60-70lbs to prevent inadvertent inflation, the lanyard itself must be way stronger to prevent its breaking before puncturing the canister.

    Actually your question makes no sense. A 750 grain bullet at 3,000 feet per second hits with an impulse force of 800,000 pounds, shattering steels. Thus, when you include velocity, you have to make the lanyard even STRONGER to prevent inadvertent breaking, e.g. a 100 pound person dismounting imparts about 1,000 pounds of force per square inch on the lanyard and it does not break. If it did you would see the lanyard break before the canister seal. Thus, the lanyard must be over designed to ensure the vest inflates in almost any instance.

    By the way, fishing line test is a function of line diameter. Thus, the lines can carry loads well in excess of 10,000 pounds per square inch even in 10 pound test. Load is not a good measure of strength. Stress (load per unit area) is the appropriate measure.


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  18. #158
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    Oh jeez, it's like being at the dinner table. (I am married to an engineer)


    Stress is not strain, speed is not velocity, mass is not weight, torsion is not bending, strength is relative, aluminum is stronger than steel, except when it isn't! The things one learns . . .
    Click here before you buy.



  19. #159
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    LOL, dw, my dad was an engineer (although oh dear cod, that has it's own set of issues) and I ALMOST majored in physics -- ah, it feels like home.



  20. #160
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    haha. I come from a family of Engineers and Attorneys (poor me). Great Grandfather, grandfather, father, brother, and scores of cousins are Engineers. Great Grandfather, grandfather, brother, and scores of cousins are Attorneys. Mother was a chemist (back when that was rare as she was born in 1925). How I ended up as a Social Scientist, and then later a mental health provider, is strange at best. But I have always (ALWAYS) been one to question the dominant opinion. Had a bumper sticker that said, "Question Authority," on my car all throughout school.

    So this is probably one of the reasons I persist in questioning the popular opinion on this forum. I am always uncomfortable with strong opinions, especially when accompanied by the insistence that the source is an "expert."

    I will look into the actual weight bearing of the lanyard.

    Peace. Ann



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