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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by LookmaNohands View Post
    Are these air vest companies trying to do something like that? Obviously they cannot judge an impact by looking at the vest like you can a helmet, but are they even interested in looking at videos of falls to see if the vest deployed as designed?

    ...
    Are they taking any interest at all after the sale of the vest to see if the thing worked properly? Or do they just wash their hands of it once it is sold?
    At the USEA meeting, the Air Vest guy said that they want to check it once a year. IIRC they mostly wanted to check for damage from abrasion.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #82

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    There are a few things that I would like to point out here. First of all, Reed, you are a respected poster on this forum. Your opinion is valued. Yet I find it interesting that you would not wear a helmet until your girlfriend threatened to leave you. Is there something we should know about helmets that you aren't sharing with us? I also find it ironic that someone with your level of understanding should choose to wear a very old Tipperary vest. As I am sure you are aware....foam has a lifespan and it rarely exceeds 5 years.

    I couldn't care less what you choose to do/wear or not but it would be fair for those that may be influenced by your very strong opinions to know these things.

    Now for my legitimate question.....are you saying that the types of injuries that you are attributing to the air vests did not occur prior to people wearing air vests? Or that we have a higher occurrence since the advent of air vests? I know we do not collect data well in our sport but everything on this board is opinion anyhow so I would like yours.

    I would also like to know if you have seen the medical reports/data from KOC's fall. I haven't and I wouldn't know what to make of it if I had but I would think it would be silly to make claims either way unless one had studied it.

    I have not seen the air jacket companies actually make any claims that their products will prevent compression fractures. Where would one find these specific claims?


    5 members found this post helpful.

  3. #83
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    Wow, hoisttheflag, interesting that you are willing to create an alter to post what you did above. Feels very much like someone that has in interest in the profit of Air Vests..... hmmmm....



  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by SevenDogs View Post
    Wow, hoisttheflag, interesting that you are willing to create an alter to post what you did above. Feels very much like someone that has in interest in the profit of Air Vests..... hmmmm....
    Nonetheless, they are all relevant questions.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoisttheflag View Post

    I have not seen the air jacket companies actually make any claims that their products will prevent compression fractures. Where would one find these specific claims?
    The problem is that the air vest companies have NO IDEA if their product prevents, causes, or aggravates compression fractures.

    They make general safety claims, accompanied by photos of riders who "swear by " the product.
    They have been reprimanded for misleading advertising twice (in the case of Point2) and have not done sufficient studies to know what safety or risk, their product does or does not provide.

    As for RAyers personal choices. no one's business but his own, and helmets have been required in competition for eons.
    Last edited by skydy; Feb. 4, 2013 at 07:08 PM.



  6. #86
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    Apr. 2, 2009
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    Just FYI alter-person, KOC posted her xrays online, so yes, the injuries were available for study.



  7. #87
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    I applaud hoisttheflag for standing up and making a cogent challenge and am most disappointed that someone would claim that this means he/she has an ulterior motive. Just because someone is willing to stand up and challenge the dominant and popular view on this forum does NOT mean they are doing so for financial gain.

    I just hope that those who lurk on this list are not turned away from potential safety measures because of the dominant and popular opinion.

    Thank you, Hoisttheflag


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildlifer View Post
    Just FYI alter-person, KOC posted her xrays online, so yes, the injuries were available for study.
    um... xrays online do not = medical reports. :-)



  9. #89
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    I just hope that those who lurk on this list are not turned away from potential safety measures because of the dominant and popular opinion.
    A statement that cuts both ways.
    Click here before you buy.



  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    I applaud hoisttheflag for standing up and making a cogent challenge and am most disappointed that someone would claim that this means he/she has an ulterior motive.
    I suspect it's the creation of an alter, specifically for this post and purpose, that gives rise to the notion that there's an agenda involved.

    It's hard for me to applaud someone for posting this under a newly-birthed alter. It's not exactly 'standing up', and the 'challenge' would perhaps be more 'cogent' under the real screen name.

    But really, why the need for an alter on this thread?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91
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    Dec. 10, 2012
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    Perhaps the alter's questions, not his/hers identity or motivation, be the focus of conversation?

    The world wonders......


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoisttheflag View Post
    ... Yet I find it interesting that you would not wear a helmet until your girlfriend threatened to leave you. Is there something we should know about helmets that you aren't sharing with us?
    Uh, that ASTM/SEI tested helmets did not exist until fairly recently and that growing up we did XC, jumpers, hunters, roped cattle, trail rides, sans helmet etc. Ironically, when I did the h/j, I was wearing harnesses etc. on crap helmets long before anybody else or before they were even required. As for the story, that is now almost 10 years old so I see that it has no bearing on the price of caviar in Chile. Of course my mom, who is in her late 70s still refuses to wear a helmet while jumping.

    What's the point of your assertion? Do you ask professional cyclists why they don't wear helmets at times? Does that impact the choices you make?

    Just as I say professional endorsements mean jack when it comes to safety equipment, I suggest you apply the same idea to my postings as well. At least I work to use scientific reasoning combined with studied research to achieve my stated claims. I am not making any claims to efficacy of safety equipment from a personal anecdote or hearsay. If you want a full reference list I can give you one.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoisttheflag View Post
    I also find it ironic that someone with your level of understanding should choose to wear a very old Tipperary vest. As I am sure you are aware....foam has a lifespan and it rarely exceeds 5 years.
    I have an EXO as well and yet I prefer to wear my Carhartt more than anything, even out trail riding in a high wind yesterday or heading up into the mountains last week.

    I assume you ask your doctor why they drink or smoke or why they have the diet they do?

    Quote Originally Posted by hoisttheflag View Post
    Now for my legitimate question.....are you saying that the types of injuries that you are attributing to the air vests did not occur prior to people wearing air vests? Or that we have a higher occurrence since the advent of air vests? I know we do not collect data well in our sport but everything on this board is opinion anyhow so I would like yours.
    Good questions. And we are looking into ways to get the answers. One of the best ways would be to start instrumenting riders the same way MotoGP did when companies started to develop their protective gear - including shoulder air bags. They spent 10 years determining the rates of injuries and accident biomechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoisttheflag View Post
    I would also like to know if you have seen the medical reports/data from KOC's fall.
    As many doctors here can attest, medical reports have little to no insight into the cause of injury. They are not root cause investigations. The doctors only know what the EMTs convey and EMTS are not trained to conduct root cause investigations.

    How do I know? From the myriad of root cause investigations I do for medical device failures. I almost always find the medical reports to be inaccurate as to root causes. I usually resort to the actual data, such as x-rays which can be very telling if one knows the various components (see below).

    So, yes, "I studied it."

    Quote Originally Posted by hoisttheflag View Post
    I have not seen the air jacket companies actually make any claims that their products will prevent compression fractures. Where would one find these specific claims?
    Air jacket companies make no claims one way or another other than they "reduce injury." However, since we do not access to full data, their claims can not be verified. Again, something that has been proposed to be rectified.

    At the same time, the standards they are required to meet are so specious that, as I noted, my Carhartt is considered a valid protective garment. The only testing being done does little to mimic actual events and the data is not reflective of where/how injury can occur. For example, I can make a helmet that would virtually prevent any head injury but it would be so heavy that neck spine injuries would increase.

    As for the burst fracture, one can utilize the great body of research into injuries sustained in similar accidents where rigid/semi-rigid protective devices are worn (motorcycle, military). Back injuries (fracture predominantly) INCREASE in certain instances such as being thrown from a humvee or tossed through the air as the result of an IED as a result of modified mechanics (force/energy transfer) because the body becomes limited in its ability to flex, and the various safety components do not actually dissipate the energy e.g. you can still break your neck/back in a Zorb, car air bags protect by collapsing, not inflating.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    I suspect it's the creation of an alter, specifically for this post and purpose, that gives rise to the notion that there's an agenda involved.

    It's hard for me to applaud someone for posting this under a newly-birthed alter. It's not exactly 'standing up', and the 'challenge' would perhaps be more 'cogent' under the real screen name.

    But really, why the need for an alter on this thread?
    JER, whoever you are.
    Most people on this forum post using a hidden identity, so what is the issue with having an alter? I have no problem whatsoever with anyone wanting to have a pseudonym for a pseudonym... it's just a cloak on top of a cloak



  14. #94
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    [QUOTE=JER;6816579]
    I suspect it's the creation of an alter, specifically for this post and purpose, that gives rise to the notion that there's an agenda involved.

    It's also the need for a personal attack. I have no problem with true opposing opinions, but as soon as you create an alter and your opening paragraphs are a personal attack, credibility goes to zero.

    I will defend opposing opinions every day of the week. I have actually stopped posting on the air vests. It is a risk/benefit calculation that each of us must do. For me, the potential benefit does not outweigh the very real risk of being tethered to a 1200 lb flight animal. Further, I don't think enough analysis has been provided to show that the can't do harm, in certain circumstances. Others, feel differently and wear them. Perhaps I should be happy -- they will flesh out the findings, one way or another.

    But creating an alter for a personal attack that has no real bearings on the information that he has presented, is ridiculous and makes me wonder exactly has the motivation to do such a thing.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #95
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    Most people on this forum post using a hidden identity
    Most people are using a screen name, and after posters have been around for a little while the "real" identities of people become known, if one has even a shred of interest in finding out. I've been announced as "deltawave" at HORSE SHOWS (by other COTHers) and it is as much a nickname as anything else.

    Perhaps to a newcomer the screen names might seem like masquerades, but nothing could be further from the truth. Creating an alter to actually remain incognito (which is rarely done unless someone has something to hide, an axe to grind, or an agenda to support) is not the same as using the same nickname one has had all the way back when "COTH" was the old USCTA bulletin board. Yeah, 15 years with the same screen name, and "delta wave" goes back as my on-line persona to 1995. I've got no secrets.

    DW
    aka Lynn Cronin, expletives deleted
    Click here before you buy.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  16. #96
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    Deltawave is Lynn Cronin!!! Had no idea!

    I've not been around for long at all and with the exception of a just a few, I have no idea who is who, unless they sign their posts with their actual name.

    So creating an alter is something that one does if one wants to grind an axe... maybe I should have an alter and then I won't feel so blasted when I'm called melodramatic or in need of an education.
    Last edited by Winding Down; Feb. 4, 2013 at 08:20 PM. Reason: shitty grammar


    2 members found this post helpful.

  17. #97
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    Nah, that just means you belong here. This is a gritty bunch, but with the exception of a small few, nobody takes the blustering seriously. And although it's an artificial and inhuman means of communication, I know people through COTH who I would absolutely trust like family and many, many good things have happened to me strictly because of COTHers. When I had to put Gwennie down the outpouring of support from people who I barely knew was breathtaking and still makes me weepy when I think about it. I've had a free lease on an awesome horse through COTH, had horse transport arranged, found help getting animals a home, found people to stay with when traveling, had people show up to spend the weekend because I was a COTHer and said I had room . . .

    No, it's not the same as and no substitute for sitting around and having a beer with someone (done that, too) but adults with a firm grasp on their own opinions have NO trouble being heard around here, even if they're not universally agreed with. Hell, no group of several hundred opinionated horsepeople are going to agree on EVERYTHING!
    Click here before you buy.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #98
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    so why do people not use their real identities?

    I apologize... this is off-topic.... I should use PM...



  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    Perhaps the alter's questions, not his/hers identity or motivation, be the focus of conversation?

    The world wonders......
    The world? Perhaps you and your world didn't notice that hoisttheflag's questions were directed specifically to RAyers and not to the general populace.

    As for me, I do take exception to unwarranted personal attacks by purpose-bred alters on a thread that I started. That's what I was addressing.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    so why do people not use their real identities?
    Because after 15 years of hearty online interaction under the same screen names, this is our 'real' and our 'normal'.



    2 members found this post helpful.

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