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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2000
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    Default video: a PointTwo failure to deploy

    In this month's Eventing mag, there's a reader-submitted photo (it's the annual contest) of Clayton Fredericks clearing the Cottesmore Leap at Burghley without his horse. I can't find the photo online, but it clearly and spectacularly shows CF about 18" above the ground, thrown fully clear of his horse (who isn't in the photo, as he's in the ditch on the other side of the fence) but it's also fully clear that the P2 is not inflating yet. Moreover, as CF is so close to the ground and traveling at speed, it's unlikely that the P2 will inflate or begin to inflate before he hits the ground.

    Interest firmly piqued, I found this video on YouTube. Someone got an excellent view of the obstacle, and it appears that CF gets to his feet with a vest that is still not inflated.

    This fall is exactly the type of fall in which a P2 should be useful -- one in which the rider is thrown clear of the horse from a reasonable height (horse height) off the ground. I would think this is just about the ideal circumstance, however unfortunate, to showcase the benefits of the P2.

    So, what happened here? Did the vest fail to deploy? Did CF not have a lanyard and canister hooked up?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb. 18, 2011
    Location
    KY
    Posts
    211

    Default

    I watched his XC round on BurghleyTV, I remember saying to myself as he started "his lanyard is not attached to the saddle." I purposely watched all the riders who had fallen to see how their vests deployed if they were wearing one.
    Things happen for a reason...so when I reach over and smack you upside the head, just remember...you gave me a reason!



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep. 11, 2011
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    Area VI
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    1,830

    Default

    OMG.

    I can't comment on the P2 failure, but the sound that hit made seriously turned my stomach. SO glad they both appear fine.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr. 27, 2008
    Posts
    2,637

    Default

    Oh that poor horse! Did he land on concrete?!
    I have a Fjord! Life With Oden



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
    Location
    West Coast of Michigan
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    36,321

    Default

    A rider's failure to attach the lanyard to the saddle can hardly put the product at fault, I guess. Other than it being more "active" than "passive" protection. But forgetting to strap on one's helmet doesn't mean the helmet is inadequate, either. Was the lanyard for sure not attached?
    Click here before you buy.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2000
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    passepartout
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    10,164

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Was the lanyard for sure not attached?
    I don't know. I just threw that out there as a possibility. I couldn't tell from the video and I also couldn't hear anything on the audio that sounded like a P2 pop.

    I don't know why a rider would wear a P2 as an 'item of apparel only'. I did look on the Team Fredericks website to see if P2 was their sponsor but they're not.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2010
    Location
    Area 1, Connecticut
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    714

    Default

    The lanyard doesn't look attached to me. This is not to say that he purposely didn't attach it. I don't attach mine in warmup because if I fall and it deploys it is far too time consuming to wait for it to deflate and then change the cartridge. I have on more than one occasion been so caught up in start box nerves that I almost forgot to clip it to my saddle.
    Blog: http://movingonupeventing.blogspot.com/

    Don't believe the hype.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb. 18, 2011
    Location
    KY
    Posts
    211

    Default

    Watch a video of his round. Please correct me if I am wrong. I remember the lanyard was looped so that it appeared to be hooked back onto the vest itself so that it would not be dangling down. I am going to guess he didn't have it clipped to his saddle during warmup and forgot about.
    Things happen for a reason...so when I reach over and smack you upside the head, just remember...you gave me a reason!



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan. 14, 2010
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    at the edge of reason
    Posts
    324

    Default

    The video of Clayton's cross country ride is still viewable on Burghley TV (can't directly link to his video). If you go to 2:22, I'm pretty sure I see the lanyard was not attached - it's flapping all over - and I'm pretty sure it's black and not reins. Whether he forgot or chose not to attach, that's a question for CF.
    You know you're a horse person when your mother, who has no grandchildren, gets cards addressed to Grandma, signed by the horses, cats, and dogs.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec. 10, 2012
    Posts
    689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    I don't know why a rider would wear a P2 as an 'item of apparel only'.
    Is he even wearing an inflatable vest? I could not tell from the video in question.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr. 30, 2002
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    Default

    I would like to say something. JFCEventer, we LOVE YOU. We want you to stick around. You can fall and get hurt in warmup or anywhere. PLEASE clip your vest no matter where / when / how you are riding with it on. You paid a lot of money for that -- get your money's worth. Regardless of the hassle of the inflation/deflation and cost of a cannister -- it is certainly not worth a month in ICU. What would be the point of an expensive airvest that is not clipped, and therefore NOT fused to go off if a fall occurred? Not clipping it for the 20-30 approx. minutes of warmup in a group of other horses going every which way and people all over the place and fences that fall down and dogs and everything, vs. 5-10 minutes on a groomed cross country course by yourself?

    None of us can predict the future or protect against everything. You can practically walk out the barn door and have a serious life-threatening fall, (as Caitlin Silliman almost did). Golly! (Shakes head).Clip that vest! Please!
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb. 4, 2004
    Posts
    2,677

    Default

    ^ Are you advocating everyone wearing an air vest every time they ride?


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2009
    Location
    North Carolina
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    5,418

    Default

    ^Yeah, seriously? There is a regular vest on underneath. That's hardly hanging your head over the train tracks.....


    5 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2007
    Location
    San Jose, Ca
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    5,680

    Default

    Yes, falls can happen anywhere, but they are more likely to be serious out on cross country due to the speed, and solid nature of the obstacles.

    Few wear inflatable vests in stadium jumping – I do not see why it is important to have a vest hooked up in warm-up if you are not going to be wearing it at all times mounted (which few do – but I am still a skeptic and do not have an inflatable vest).


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May. 23, 2010
    Posts
    208

    Default

    I don't want to start trouble, but vest aside, that horse looked pretty cooked on the approach. He looks like he gave it all he had and pretty much threw himself at the fence. Being that I haven't watch the whole round, maybe it was just this short clip.

    Does anyone have any insight on how he looked before this one?


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2010
    Location
    Area 1, Connecticut
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    714

    Default

    Not that I couldn't get incredibly hurt in xc warmup but I mostly do one days and my horse is usually pretty warmed up from stadium so I spend at a maximum 10 or 15 minutes in xc warmup and jump maybe two or three fences. Plus, I am a lot more likely to have a serious fall on xc than in warmup, I imagine this is the same reason why you can fall in xc warmup and get back on and compete but if you fall xc you're done (I still don't understand that ) There are also tons of people who don't even wear an airvest xc. I agree it would be nice to clip it but I don't think I'm putting my life in imminent danger if I don't. But I really, truly appreciate your concen for my safety
    Blog: http://movingonupeventing.blogspot.com/

    Don't believe the hype.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May. 3, 2008
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    1,133

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by runnyjump View Post
    I don't want to start trouble, but vest aside, that horse looked pretty cooked on the approach. He looks like he gave it all he had and pretty much threw himself at the fence. Being that I haven't watch the whole round, maybe it was just this short clip.

    Does anyone have any insight on how he looked before this one?
    For some reason that jump jumped really strange that year. It's usually more of a rider frightened but that year quite a few people had bad jumps there. Not sure why.



  18. #18
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    Apr. 30, 2002
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    Default

    Appsolute-- there is no evidence falls out on XC are more serious. I know someone walking a dressage horse from the mounting block who ended up with a severe, life threatening, family-rip-apart in debt for life head injury. Your ticket can be punched ANYTIME, anywhere. I think the warmup is about the most dangerous place of any horse trial grounds.


    It makes no sense whatsoever to avail yourself of an airvest and not fully fuse it while wearing it. You may as well leave it hanging in your horse trailer tack room if you aren't going to clip it.


    The EMT's who actually work at horse trials have told me personally that they see a positive difference in injuries (less) with the air vests. I find that research to be compelling. it is anecdotal of course but it is enough for me. I actually ASKED them and they were on the side of protection.
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2002
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    3,986

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by runnyjump View Post
    I don't want to start trouble, but vest aside, that horse looked pretty cooked on the approach. He looks like he gave it all he had and pretty much threw himself at the fence.
    Ditto. Forget the rider, the video made me cringe for the horse. I sure hope he's ok.
    Ottbs - The finish line is only the beginning!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan. 6, 2008
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    Area II, the Blue Ridge Mountains
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    2,116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by retreadeventer View Post
    Appsolute-- The EMT's who actually work at horse trials have told me personally that they see a positive difference in injuries (less) with the air vests. I find that research to be compelling. it is anecdotal of course but it is enough for me. I actually ASKED them and they were on the side of protection.
    ^what she said^

    I've heard this from EMT's consistently, and I heard it the day I fell at VAHT last spring. The EMT was nearby and swore that if I hadn't had the airvest on, I would've been injured. Anecdotal. Yes. But I will take that. It's the same reason I wear a helmet. I've wacked my head very hard in the past and my sense was that if I hadn't worn a helmet, I would've been seriously hurt.

    The pros I've talked with swear by the airvests. And I don't think they do so simply because they are given the airvests. I give them much more credit than that. It's the anecdotal evidence they've accrued, through their own falls, and witnessing the falls of others.



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