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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2008
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    now in KCMO, and plan to stay there
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    Quote Originally Posted by KentuckyTBs View Post
    I don't want to sound mean, but this horse has fallen down SEVERAL times and is now having trouble getting back up when he falls. It is winter - if he goes down in the field on a cold night and can't get up or if he goes down in the stall and gets cast and starts thrashing and breaks something, that would be VERY bad. I understand that it is hard to make the decision to euthanize but given the circumstances with this horse, it sounds like that is the most humane option for his safety and the safety of those around him. **Hugs**
    There are many good answers in this thread, but this is the best one, IMO. As heartbreaking as it is, if I were in your shoes, I would euth him. His quality of life is not good, and surely you realize that for a prey animal to fall and have trouble getting up is one of the most terrifying things that can happen to such an animal, short of actually being eaten by a predator. Being able to escape from predators, real or imagined, is so central to the essence of a horse, that anything that makes a horse feel vulnerable is scary to the critter.

    FWIW, I have been in your shoes, had a mare that was having trouble walking and having serious trouble getting up when down. I only wish I had euth'd her sooner than I did. The bottom line is, are you keeing him for you, or are you looking at the big picture of his quality of life and then doing what is best for him? Hugs, BTDT and this is one of the hardest things ever.
    Jeanie
    RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Mar. 25, 2011
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    397

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    Quote Originally Posted by Appsolute View Post
    FAR from alone! But I think those that have not had a deep relationship with a horse do not quite understand.

    It was heart breaking when I had to put my “heart horse” one in a life time best pal down. I seriously had not known a sorrow like that before, or since the day I lost him. But like others have said, the pain is not from regret, but from the loss.

    I remember taking a sociology class in college called “Death and Dying”. One of the things that really struck me is that EVERY relationship we have in life, will come to an end. Be it growing apart from a friend, or death of a parent, a break up with a loved one – or our own death, the relationship as we know it here on earth will cease at some point. Its sad thought, but on the other hand lets us appreciate what we have – and the cycles of life.

    The other point made – Love expands your heart – think of your heart as a vessel, the more loved it is filled with, the bigger it gets, and conversely, the bigger the heart, the larger the capacity for grief.

    I am not saying these things to scare you, just to point out things as they are. When the time comes, it is going to be really hard to go on without him. But that is just a testimony to the love which expanded your heart.

    TIME will heal – your memories will always be there, and even more, his affect on you, the person you have become, and the way your relationship has shaped you will be with you forever.
    This is so well said...it warmed my heart. You are so not alone. I lost my 22 year old heart horse a month ago. It was all so sudden, and a decision I had no choice in making quickly. He was healthy and I really thought we had more time together. It was one of the hardest things I have ever been through and I miss him dearly. Big big hugs to you!


    3 members found this post helpful.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    May. 10, 2010
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    310

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    You all were so kind to send me such encouraging words of wisdom that I wanted to provide you with an update.

    I met with my vet today to discuss Tango's health. He said that, at this point, it's either EPM that is not responding to treatment or neck arthritis. If it's neck arthritis, he believes it is likley a narrowing of the spinal column that may be pinching the nerves, causing the neurological symptoms. He does not believe that injections will help as this is not an inflammation issue. He said he's had success with injections used to treat horses with stiffness in the neck resulting from arthritis, but that my horse is not exhibiting stiffness, only neurological symptoms. As a result, it's unlikely that there is much inflammation to treat. He said we could do an x-ray if I would like, but that the x-ray may not show anything definitive. Even so, I think I'm going to do it...if for nothing else than knowing I tried everything.

    In the meantime, he thought it would be worth a shot to treat the EPM (if it is that) with protazil, vitamin E, and perhaps additional vitamin supplements. We start treatment on Monday, so fingers crossed!!

    I asked about Oroquin-10, and he said that he's seen horses treated with it before with no success. He thinks it's a sad, money-making scheme. I also asked about Qing Hao San (Chinese herb) - yes, I know, I'm out on a limb here - and he said that might be worth a shot, too, but that he has had no experience with it.

    I also asked about whether he thought my boy should be put down now. He said that he does not believe that the need is imminent, but that he thinks it should be in the back of my mind. He said that he does not want to see Tango and I go through the tragedy of a field accident, etc.

    Anyway, thanks again for all your help and encouragement. I'll post periodic updates...here's to hoping the protazil helps!


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
    Location
    West Coast of Michigan
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    36,321

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    I'm glad you updated and it sounds like your vet is being very realistic and reasonable with you. Good luck!

    He thinks it's a sad, money-making scheme.
    Me, too. But one gets crucified around here for holding that opinion.
    Click here before you buy.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Nov. 18, 2010
    Location
    california
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    3,856

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    OP, I am so sorry about your guy. My story, I almost put my older horse down last Monday, he was badly injured when I went to feed blanket on Sunday. Horse shook when I got him up and could barely move his hind end. Not tyed up but his entire back was in pain, severe pain and he shook from the pain. Vet came out and we gave him meds, banamine, bute, muscle relaxers. He and I agreed to just see how things went. Vet gave him a DMSO IV Monday. He was a little better every day.

    We are not out of the woods, but I support giving a horse a shot even when you highly doubt a good outcome, especially when you have no definative cause.



  6. #46
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    May. 10, 2010
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    310

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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    OP, I am so sorry about your guy. My story, I almost put my older horse down last Monday, he was badly injured when I went to feed blanket on Sunday. Horse shook when I got him up and could barely move his hind end. Not tyed up but his entire back was in pain, severe pain and he shook from the pain. Vet came out and we gave him meds, banamine, bute, muscle relaxers. He and I agreed to just see how things went. Vet gave him a DMSO IV Monday. He was a little better every day.

    We are not out of the woods, but I support giving a horse a shot even when you highly doubt a good outcome, especially when you have no definative cause.
    Stolen Virtue - I am so sorry to hear about your horse, too. Sending lots of jingles your way...

    And thanks for your advice, I'm definitely considering the injections.



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jun. 3, 2012
    Location
    Louisa County, Virginia
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    285

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    Again, you have a great, conscientious veterinarian with whom you have a cooperative relationship. It sounds like together you have come up with an intelligent plan going forward. Jingles to continue . . . please update.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    May. 30, 2002
    Location
    NC USA
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    311

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    I understand your vet's reluctance to try the Oroquin-10 but it has helped many horses (including mine) and isn't all that expensive so I think it's worth a try if EPM is a real possibility.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Nov. 18, 2010
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    california
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    3,856

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceSheik325 View Post
    Stolen Virtue - I am so sorry to hear about your horse, too. Sending lots of jingles your way...

    And thanks for your advice, I'm definitely considering the injections.
    Thank you so much for your kind thoughts. I actually was referring to working with your vet and not putting your horse down. Whatever your vet feels is right you should trust. I had my doubts on Monday and there was a part of me that just felt I should have put my guy down, and I am glad I listened to my vet. Don't let people tell you to not trust your vet, my vet had no idea what could have made my horse so injured but he knew what to do.



  10. #50
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    Dec. 20, 2009
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    3,083

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    OP - I have a 23 yr old who a year or so ago was showing neuro symptoms - not as severe, but trippy, wobbly, not falling down. He had arthritis in neck; vet injected 3 locations, both sides of neck. He showed such significant improvement that I was able to put him back in light work; he is now happily being ridden every other day, training/first level work, His only issue is a slightly "slippy" stifle which vet believes is nerve damage rather than lack of muscle. I dont know if you have the option, but based on the xrays I'd get a second opinion on the injections. Mine ran about $800, but worth it to me. BTW, I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't trust your vet on this...just that another vet may be more experienced in dealing with neck injections.
    We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2006
    Location
    SW PA
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    Thank you for the update! I think you've got a good vet there, he sounds like he's being very straight forward with you and I love that. I would rather someone tell it like it is.

    More jingles!!!
    Boyle Heights Kid 1998 OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
    Tinner's Way x Sculpture by Hail to Reason
    "Once you go off track, you never go back!"



  12. #52
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2012
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    196

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    2tempe's experience with c-spine arthritis is almost identical to mine -- horse came back into training/1st level work with neck injections, with just an occasional stifle slip to remind us of her former hind end uncoordination. Mine had neuro symptoms in the absence of any neck stiffness whatsoever -- she was her usual gumby self all along -- and it turned out to be treatable, so don't lose hope.

    It's impossible to really know w/o x-rays what is going on in their spinal column, so I think you are right to go that route. Be ready to send the images on to a neuro specialist at a big vet hospital for a second opinion, especially if your vet isn't used to looking at c-spine films -- subtle changes can produce dramatic effects, so the more experienced eyes on them the better, ime!



  13. #53
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    May. 10, 2010
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    310

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    Quote Originally Posted by x-halt-salute View Post
    2tempe's experience with c-spine arthritis is almost identical to mine -- horse came back into training/1st level work with neck injections, with just an occasional stifle slip to remind us of her former hind end uncoordination. Mine had neuro symptoms in the absence of any neck stiffness whatsoever -- she was her usual gumby self all along -- and it turned out to be treatable, so don't lose hope.

    It's impossible to really know w/o x-rays what is going on in their spinal column, so I think you are right to go that route. Be ready to send the images on to a neuro specialist at a big vet hospital for a second opinion, especially if your vet isn't used to looking at c-spine films -- subtle changes can produce dramatic effects, so the more experienced eyes on them the better, ime!
    Thanks for this...I'm going to discuss the x-rays with my vet tomorrow. My boy has been on the protazil for 5 days now and seems less wobbly than before (I'm hoping this is not just wishful thinking on my part). I'll keep you all posted!!



  14. #54
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    Feb. 25, 2012
    Location
    Montana
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    2,192

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    Thank you so much for the update! Glad your vet is so great, works with you - I'd want to feel i'd done everything too!

    you and tango sound like such a team - prayers to you, and to you too, Stolen Virtue - hope things work out for your horse as well!



  15. #55
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    May. 10, 2010
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    310

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilitiger2 View Post
    Thank you so much for the update! Glad your vet is so great, works with you - I'd want to feel i'd done everything too!

    you and tango sound like such a team - prayers to you, and to you too, Stolen Virtue - hope things work out for your horse as well!

    Thank you, lilitiger!! :-)



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Apr. 27, 2013
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    1

    Default Oroquin-10

    If your beloved horse is still with you, I have some thoughts on Oroquin 10 for you.

    Oroquin 10 does have research to back it up. it is in the process of FDA approval. It is very inexpensive compared to Marquis and ponazuril so its hard to think of it as a money making scheme.

    My experience was very good. I recommend that you look at the Pathogenes, Inc website and view the power point about the way the disease works ad how the oroquin 10 works.

    After that you might consider having the Sarcocystis titers done by Pathogenes labs and treating based on those findings and clinical signs.

    Siobhan Ellison was the first researcher to ever be able to consistently reproduce this disease so that it could be studied. She is a veterinary pathologist who was involved in the development of and licensing of Marquis to treat EPM when she worked for Bayer. She is the leading authority on EPM in the United States.

    I don't have the impression that this is a money making scheme at all. She is a well respected Veterinary pathologist.

    Good luck.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2002
    Location
    Virginia
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    3,535

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    My own opinion of O-10 notwithstanding, the OP's vet doesn't want to use it. Shouldn't that be enough reason for the O-10 clan to remain at bay?
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #58
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    Mar. 14, 2010
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    Earlysville, Virginia
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    Oh boy...new poster reviving an old thread and preaching the greatness of Oroquin 10?
    Charlie Brown (1994 bay TB X gelding)
    White Star (2004 grey TB gelding)

    Mystical Moment, 1977-2010.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2014
    Posts
    2

    Default Just wondering

    When you last posted your horse was responding to a new treatment. How is he? Also, what have you learned that you would or would not do again? Did you ever try the Chinese Herb?

    Thank you for your post, it was very helpful to read yours and others opinions. A horse at our barn was recently diagnosed with EPM.



  20. #60
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    May. 10, 2010
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    310

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    Quote Originally Posted by c3tharris View Post
    When you last posted your horse was responding to a new treatment. How is he? Also, what have you learned that you would or would not do again? Did you ever try the Chinese Herb?

    Thank you for your post, it was very helpful to read yours and others opinions. A horse at our barn was recently diagnosed with EPM.
    Thanks so much for checking in! I really should have updated this post sooner because my horse is doing VERY well! In fact, we went for a trail ride last night. :-)

    Our break-through came when, as a last resort, I desperately reached out to one of the vets who had conducted the clinical trials of Protazil and Marquis. She told me that he would not respond to treatment for one of two reasons: (1) he doesn't have EPM, or (2) he has EPM, but there's another infection on top of it that is compromising his immune system and not allowing the medication to fight the EPM. She then asked me if he was older...he is...so, she suggested I test him for Cushing's.

    I'll admit I was skeptical at first as we had done a Cushing's test the year before, which produced a negative result, but I asked my vet to run it again anyway. As it turns out, he has Cushing's. So, I took him off Protazil for two weeks and started treating for Cushing's. After two weeks, I added back in the Protazil, and he improved significantly. He went from being incredibly wobbly to approved for full turnout within two months. Three months after we began treating for Cushing's and EPM, he was jumping out of his field and moving like his usual self! Now, I ride him for fun - nothing strenuous, but I know he'd love to jump again if I would let him. I am amazed by how well the Protazil worked after we treated the underlying Cushing's, and I will be forever thankful to the vet who suggested we test for Cushing's. As a side note, I put him back on Protazil for vaccinations and worming. He hasn't had any relapses, but another horse in our barn did relapse when wormed, so I'm not taking any chances!

    My horse is now the poster-child my vet uses for EPM recovery. At first, I know some of my barnmates (and probably even my vet) thought I was crazy to spend so much time and money to try and treat my horse. In the end, I am so grateful I didn't give up. I would highly recommend that anyone out there whose horse is not responding to EPM treatment test for an underlying disease that may be compromising the horse's immune system. In my experience, Protazil works great if you give it the opportunity to work!

    Good luck with the horse in your barn - if he's older, you may want to test for Cushing's. You never know...


    14 members found this post helpful.

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