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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    I thought that was an unfair representation of the AQHA by far, more than the other comments.
    I think it is not I who has a problem here, but the OP, with her way too exagerated, not true words about the AQHA.

    By the way, the AQHA is NOT for or against slaughter, as they have stated many times.
    The AQHA was against the ill worded "ban horse slaughter bill" of 2007, that 200+ other horse organizations were against, as they should have.
    That is the only time they have spoken as an association about this.
    That they are for slaughter is another misconception that some keep repeating, as here.
    And the OTTB Mafia claim that I am gunning for TBs. So you'll have to arm wrestle them for the privilege of most affronted party.


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldernewbie View Post

    And why do you care if people spend there time this way? To each his own.
    Well... there are over 100,000 unwanted horses in the USA annually. At least. I would bet that number is higher.

    I make my living in the industry, and have an interest in it's general health. I don't think 'healthy' = ever increasing $ and time put into feeding starved, neglected, unwanted horses. Even some of my more bleeding heart friends have come to regret their 'saving' once they realized those critters they saved are going to cost them 2o more years of board and care, etc. Then they go looking for somebody to take the beasts off their hands....

    Not to mention the effects of having young people raised, not with the notions of sports development and personal challenge. But with the ideology of 'must save poor pony from evil doers.' 'Must buy more horses than I can afford because they need saving.' In particular, the behavior of some 4-H leaders in my area has been particularly worrisome.


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldernewbie View Post
    I have come to the conclusion that those 45,000 BLM horses are never going to find homes. They've tried every marketing scheme under the sun and don't really make much of a dent in the captive population. Me, Ms Anti Slaughter, gasped when I read how much it costs to keep them all alive. Came to the realization that the only rational solution is one more push to find any of the re-homeable ones homes, and sad, to say, the rest should be sent over the bridge. I really regret saying that, but I think it's the only rational solution. I don't think the current horse market can absorb them, and that's why they are still standing there, eating our tax dollars.

    I think *all* the registries bear some blame for the continuing push to breed, breed, breed as that is one of their main sources of income. For example, this situation has the Arabian registry in a sort of panic as they are experiencing a drop in entries in main ring showing (and honestly, probably all types of showing) and a drop in registration. They are at least sensibly cutting back their expenses. Not sure what other registries are doing but I suspect some still have their heads in the sand and are hoping for a rebound.

    Demographics and economic upheaval are working against us folks - that's a hard cold reality.
    The situation with the BLM horses is just beyond ridiculous.

    Tens of thousands of horses just. doing. nothing. Just eating. Probably not in super fantastico shape, either. I mean, how do you think their teeth look? Their feet? How much rain rot you think they got? They are just prisoners with no purpose and their natural free range life taken away.

    I have a friend with some nice Arabians. One she bought for $800 a number of years ago and he debuted PSG this past season. Still trucking along nicely up the training scale. How much $ do you think she could get for that critter?? Guess what, not nearly what she could get if he were an Oldenburg. In fact, to save her very life she could not get out of that animal the value of the training she has put into him. As an Arabian FEI horse you just could not find anyone to pay you the $100k+ you would get a warmblood with the same training.

    Why did she pay only $800 for him? Because the Arabian lovers breed so many of the darned things they practically have to give them away.


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  4. #24
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    As far as I can see, the real baddie on the BLM front hasn't even been mentioned in this rant: why is the US govt. leasing public lands that we ALL paid for and continue to pay for to private ranching industries? Why should we all be PAYING to subsidize the ranching business instead of using the land for its intended purpose? You need to start by addressing those types of problems FIRST.

    As to the rest - horses mean different things to different people. Isabeau, you have clients (at least I hope) that want to develop as sports people and move up the levels. Woohoo. But there are other ways to enjoy horses as well, and it takes just as much, if not more, actual horsemanship to rehab and train up a starved/abused horse than to crank it full of one more shot of Carolina Gold and two more mag IV's so you can feel some sense of achievement. I'm not sure what THAT segment of the market thinks they're doing, either.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    The situation with the BLM horses is just beyond ridiculous.

    Tens of thousands of horses just. doing. nothing. Just eating. Probably not in super fantastico shape, either. I mean, how do you think their teeth look? Their feet? How much rain rot you think they got? They are just prisoners with no purpose and their natural free range life taken away.

    I have a friend with some nice Arabians. One she bought for $800 a number of years ago and he debuted PSG this past season. Still trucking along nicely up the training scale. How much $ do you think she could get for that critter?? Guess what, not nearly what she could get if he were an Oldenburg. In fact, to save her very life she could not get out of that animal the value of the training she has put into him. As an Arabian FEI horse you just could not find anyone to pay you the $100k+ you would get a warmblood with the same training.

    Why did she pay only $800 for him? Because the Arabian lovers breed so many of the darned things they practically have to give them away.
    No, the Arabian people are not breeding that many of them, that is not the reason she paid $800 for him. The number of Arabians registered in the last 5-10 years has cratered. The bottom dropped out of the Arabian market for a complex set of reasons that I won't bore you with here, but an excessive number of Arabians is not the problem.

    So, if I understand your argument, you'd rather have the 2 or 3 people who could afford a PSG Oldenberg at $100 K than a much larger group of people who can afford much less than that? Believe me, that's part of the reason there are so few Arabs around these days and that they are so unpopular - once upon a time they were the go-to horse for very wealthy people - and shooed out all of the pitiful "poor" folks that could only afford more moderately priced horses, like 4 or 5 figures instead of 6 - and here we are today, no market, badly misunderstood horses, pathetic registration numbers.

    Arabs are a bad example for your argument. Trust me on this.


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  6. #26
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    In Europe they are slaughtering Warmbloods by the tens of thousands...


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    In Europe they are slaughtering Warmbloods by the tens of thousands...
    I believe it is referred to as culling. To be successful at breeding for an intended purpose show, sport etc ruthless culling is necessary. Culling does not always have to mean the knackers but those horses have to go somewhere.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    As far as I can see, the real baddie on the BLM front hasn't even been mentioned in this rant: why is the US govt. leasing public lands that we ALL paid for and continue to pay for to private ranching industries? Why should we all be PAYING to subsidize the ranching business instead of using the land for its intended purpose? You need to start by addressing those types of problems FIRST.

    As to the rest - horses mean different things to different people. Isabeau, you have clients (at least I hope) that want to develop as sports people and move up the levels. Woohoo. But there are other ways to enjoy horses as well, and it takes just as much, if not more, actual horsemanship to rehab and train up a starved/abused horse than to crank it full of one more shot of Carolina Gold and two more mag IV's so you can feel some sense of achievement. I'm not sure what THAT segment of the market thinks they're doing, either.
    Public lands are supposed to be for all uses, not just feral horses as a symbol.

    The lands that are cattle permits are very, very regulated, few cattle go there and only for a few weeks a year and that only if it rains or snows.
    For some years now, many permit holders have been paying for land they were not permitted to use, because of the ongoing drought.

    No way you can compare that kind of range management with feral horses, an invasive species there, using those ranges all year around, even when they are starving because of the drought and increasing numbers continuously, damaging the ranges for all there, including the native species.

    Those ranges designated for feral horses were determined to be so for only some of those horses, knowing they were not in an ideal situation, the BLM mandated to see that they were managed so as to do the least damage and still be there as a symbol.

    Sorry, the old "bad ranchers etc." doesn't fly there.

    I know, lets send those feral horses to the East, there is so much more grass there, those lands can hold so many more horses per acre, let them reproduce without controls there, why not do that?


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    If you check with the folks on the Eventing board, they will be happy to inform you that I hate Thoroughbreds. Not QH.

    In point of fact, I hate neither. Have ridden and owned and foaled out and worked on farms dedicated to both.

    Overall, I am pretty concerned about the tone that COTH is developing as a 'rescue this poor baby' board. The push from certain groups for 'somebody go get this horse' is getting ridiculous.

    Is that where the industry is headed? Two groups. One who uses horses and the other who 'saves' horses from the people who use them/don't want to use them anymore?
    Well, I agree with you on that, there is so much about horses any more here about "save" this or that one and clean up after those that want to cut down or get out of horses.
    Then, how much of a micro-cosmos of the horse world is COTH and those kinds of posters dedicated to that?

    Maybe it is just a phase, will again later change to other interests?

    I remember when rescuing meant getting horses that someone starved and the police was involved, all other went to horse sales, some to be resold, some to slaughter for one more final use, most for good reason, unwanted and unsuitable for other purposes.
    Today, so many "rescues" are competing with horse traders for those horses, de facto making them low end horse traders with a PC name.

    That is a whole 'nother" ball of wax than blaming registries for having registered horses and doing what they do with them, especially when you were way wrong about that.

    You do know that the AQHA had, the past few years, a larger percentage less horses registered than ever?
    Market forces at work, oversupply, bad economy, that eventually brings cheap prices, many quitting breeding then.



  10. #30
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    One more data point about Arabs and I will drop it:

    http://www.arabianhorseworld.com/liv...03/what_world/

    Read down to bottom of the page and note: "Compared with 10 years ago, there has been a noticeable shift in registrations for some countries. U.S. registrations declined from 9,660 in 2000 to 4,912 in 2010."

    I think even fewer were registered in 2011 and 2012. And even this level of registration appears to be too much for the existing Arab market, altho some breeders have commented recently that interest is ticking up.

    ETA: 3938 registered in 2011, 3653 in 2012....


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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    As far as I can see, the real baddie on the BLM front hasn't even been mentioned in this rant: why is the US govt. leasing public lands that we ALL paid for and continue to pay for to private ranching industries? Why should we all be PAYING to subsidize the ranching business instead of using the land for its intended purpose?
    I hardly think a proper use of public lands is to support a feral pest not native to our ecosystem.

    Far better that it be used to feed animals that we actually eat. God forbid someone make a meager profit out of that.


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    In Europe they are slaughtering Warmbloods by the tens of thousands...
    They smarter than we are.... which also goes to prove my point that it is not an issue about a specific breed but about a culture. People trying to create pressure that is all your/our responsibility to rehome all these horses that the current owners don't want anymore. Therefore... you, I and everyone else has to promise to feed and provide chiro and stem cell treatments for this critter for the next 25 years.

    Because, you know, the current owners don't want it. And we as a society are too juvenile to deal with the necessity of cleaning up our own mess (culling) so we'll just plop these 45,000 mustangs in holding facilities and find a few hundred thousand other suckers to take the horses from the track (and if they show up on CL in a few months then their new owners are obviously Satan's minions.....) and we'll just squirm and whine and scream and tell anybody who says we can't have it ALL that they are horse hating evil doers.


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post

    Today, so many "rescues" are competing with horse traders for those horses, de facto making them low end horse traders with a PC name.
    And that, indeed, is a big part of the issue. The race track folks being at the front lines. They are 'selling valuable sport horse prospects' that 'neeeeeeddd to be rehomed right now asap immediately trainer wants to take the winter off snatch this baby up right away don't miss out!!!' The line has indeed been blurred between 'rescue' and 'sale.'

    With plenty of other examples on COTH including "this person's farm is getting foreclosed and her horses need to go somewhere BUT that does not mean she should have to give them away because they are valuable animals and she still has to pay the feed store, vet, etc. so somebody has to take them but they have to pay to take them... blah blah blah.


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  14. #34
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    I wish I had some answers. The horses market is in the toilet. I stopped breeding several years ago and to whoever said she can't find a nice free horse, contact me. I have several nice youngsters from my last foal crop that I'd give to the right person.

    I think it will be a long time before the horse market recovers...that is unless we find ourselves needing them again like Toyotas if fuel gets too expensive. Truth is that the kids today are into computers and texting and indoor stuff and not getting into riding. Horses are expensive pets and fewer people can afford them. The baby boomers are aging and getting out of horses...so we have a glut of horses...supply exceeds demand big time.

    I think many breeders all over have cut back. Certainly not all of them but the responsible ones have. We are going through a very painful adjustment period right now. I think eventually it will level out but it will be a while yet.

    What worries me even more is that the US economy and our devaluing dollar might cause us to slide into another recession or worse so what will that do to people's ability to care for their horses. This is one reason why I also think it will be a long time before the horse world returns to normal.


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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldernewbie View Post
    One more data point about Arabs and I will drop it:

    http://www.arabianhorseworld.com/liv...03/what_world/

    Read down to bottom of the page and note: "Compared with 10 years ago, there has been a noticeable shift in registrations for some countries. U.S. registrations declined from 9,660 in 2000 to 4,912 in 2010."

    I think even fewer were registered in 2011 and 2012. And even this level of registration appears to be too much for the existing Arab market, altho some breeders have commented recently that interest is ticking up.

    ETA: 3938 registered in 2011, 3653 in 2012....
    Some of the decline in Arabian registration has more to do with people being disgusted with the breed organization and less to do with fewer horses being bred.

    Don't get me wrong. There has been a decline in breeding, but not so much to entirely account for the overall decrease in foals being registered.
    Sheilah


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoRider View Post
    Some of the decline in Arabian registration has more to do with people being disgusted with the breed organization and less to do with fewer horses being bred.

    Don't get me wrong. There has been a decline in breeding, but not so much to entirely account for the overall decrease in foals being registered.
    Sheilah
    My point was just that the person Isabel was talking about didn't pay $800 because there was a glut of Arabians. I think it's a lot more complex than that. And, as I think both you and I know, having unregistered Arabs floating around, as there are for a number of reasons including people being honked off at AHA, only becomes another of the many factors that depresses the price of Arabs in general.


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  17. #37
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    Read this thread and thought about it the whole time I was doing chores tonight. For my two cents:

    It's like asking "What's wrong with America today?" There are a complex matrix of societal, cultural, and especially economic forces in now in play that are going to be re-ordering the horse "industry" landscape--just as they always have done. A few:

    (1) The present over-supply of horseflesh will be taken care of shortly by market forces. When you lose money breeding horses, you STOP breeding horses; pretty quickly unless you're Penny Tweedy. This is already happening all over the TB, WB, and Arabian worlds as many here previously noted.

    (2) I have long thought the AQHA, with their "incentive fund" etc. is mired in a time-warp out of the 1940's and needs to emphasize responsible ownership, care, and education of amateur owners instead of "incentivizing" overproduction and the over-use of very young animals. They need to start encouraging SOUND conformation! Time to stop "industrializing" the production of horses as if they were Toyotas.

    (3) The BLM Mustang situation is caused by a toxic mix of ignorant sentimentality and mismanagement. Always follow the money--who gains? My solution, sadly, would be to send the present overstock to the unfortunate but obvious final destination AND take steps to see that rangeland herds are rigorously managed to insure this mess does not happen time and time again.

    (4) A major league societal factor that is lowering the standard of horsemanship many degrees IMO is the fact that young people nowadays live fragmented lives characterized by an ever-decreasing attention span. Given the choice between a living, breathing horse that makes demands and an I-phone, most kids are choosing the I-phone. Fact.

    (5) The permanent loss of middle-class jobs in the manufacturing and office help sectors make it more difficultt to own a horse today in a country where both the landscape and the culture are increasingly urbanized. Once again, if your kids can "do" an activity with a fixed, reasonable price tag which "everyone is doing," as opposed to an archaic activity which is unpredictable, specialized, dangerous, and expensive, well, I guess we're right back to the video and Facebook, aren't we?

    (6) The game is changing as well due to the much higher profile animal welfare is receiving, in part due to the exposure of YouTube and the like. There are far fewer rocks for some things to hide under, and regrettably the uninformed need not see too many videos of Big Lick, eventers flipping, Mexicans tripping, or race horses running on shattered legs before they paint all "horse sports" with a broad brush of disgust. Publicity like Anne Romney got does us no favors, either. We don't live in a self-protected little world of our own anymore, and must learn to police ourselves.

    Where I see it in 20 years? More like dog breeding, which for the good breeders at least is "on demand," than an "industry" producing a "product" for the "masses."
    I believe that by and large this will be a good thing.


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  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=MistyBlue;6803598

    An enormous percent of AQHAs aren't doing either discipline, do not have giant bodies on teeny feets and can actually move faster than a crippled fart.

    The lack of interest in OTTBs has mostly to do with people assuming it's impossible to show any discipline unless the horse has a European registry.[/QUOTE]

    The racing-bred AQHAs move much faster than a crippled fart.

    And the Modern Hunter Industry/Ideal has created the need for something to Look Euro. And Europe helped by supplying us with horses they'd like to dump. It happened within my lifetime. It didn't help, as well, that American racing began to favor the sprinter leaving us with OTTBs that were too short, and too-short strided.....at just the moment that Europe was supplying taller/behemoth strided.

    I will say that CANTER and the various TB affirmative action divisions are a welcome recent addition to Hunter World. When I as a sprout, it was harder to find and buy and OTTB. You had to "know a guy" (and usually he was a woman) who could get you into the backstretch. I'd be pleased as punch if Hunter World kept factionalizing. The WB crowd can pay their $2 Grand a show to jump 2'6" and the OTTB folks can go to their non-rated shows to have the same fun for less... maybe someday over bigger fences.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  19. #39
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    Maybe be looking in the wrong direction, in the 1990s the concern was the lack of horses, horse ownership, The feed producers were concerned enough to start divesting of operations. There were several steps made then to encourage horse ownership.

    Purina Mills Inc was sold off after it was determined that horse ownership was going to decrease to an unacceptable level.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1993/06/24/bu...o-be-sold.html

    I worked with the USDA in revamping the 4-H equine programs to encourage greater participation as the program was dieing.

    While advising we added provisions to the Transportation Act of 1993 to provide $50M for equine trails. (commonly known as Rails to Trails)


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  20. #40
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    No real answers, because honestly it's an industry-wide issue that needs changing at ALL levels.

    I remember a couple years ago DH was reading one of his horsey mags and was all distressed about how much the numbers for AQHA registrations have dropped. Oh honey . Read some of my horsey mags that shows all those obvious QHs in their teens headed off to slaughter.

    I remember when the tax benefit for horse businesses (too young to know WHAT the tax break was) went away, and all those people who had been breeding the pretty Arabians suddenly started dumping them left, right and overhand.

    As for rescues... Mixed bag. There are several on Whidbey, some I'd deal with and some never. This was posted on the island FB page yesterday:

    "2 mini donks and a donkey were just rescued by an off-island rescue program from a home here on Whidbey. Why weren't we (our Whidbey community of equestrians) aware of the problem and able to provide help locally? Is there a way we can better network with local non-horse folks/animal welfare groups/animal control so that we can do a better job of "neighbor helping neighbor"? Just wondering what others thoughts are about this?"

    Why does it matter who "rescued" them? Now there is a slam fest on the rescues, with the rescues joining in and slamming the local LE saying the Sheriffs don't want to do their jobs. Um, people crimes are a bit higher on their list, I can say that for sure...

    I guess that's where I fall into. Rescues are sometimes shady or nutty or bitchy, and always underfunded and understaffed. Breeders will keep breeding because someone will keep buying that cute 7 mo ArabWalkalooseron (Arabian/TWH/App/Perch). Horses will keep going to slaughter because of the above breeder and the above owner running out of money, because obviously a $350 purchase price represents a huge commitment to the horse.
    COTH's official mini-donk enabler

    "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl


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