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  1. #21
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    I understand being interested in the career of a top horse. But plain speculation is kinda weird. Maybe the horse had a little time off and is getting back on his game. Maybe they are trying a new bit. Who knows? None of us here on COTH, that's for sure.


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  2. #22
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    IME, it's not unusual to start the eventing pre-season off with some straight show jumping. Some eventers go to the pre-circuit week(s) at HITS Ocala for this. Going to WEF is probably more expensive and less convenient, but I assume Marilyn is there with her jumpers.

    Mr. M. might be a less-clean jumper without the benefit of a dressage test and an XC run. This would not be unusual.

    If he is on the market again, that's interesting. IIRC, as of not long ago, KOC has written/said something about him not being fully paid for or not fully syndicated -- does this have anything to do with the sale?

    FWIW, I don't see anything wrong or weird or rude about sports fans asking questions and speculating about people, horses or happenings in their sport. This is what is is to be part of the larger community of fans and supporters.


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  3. #23
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    This seems pretty normal to me? It's not quite time to kick into the late winter/early spring eventing in Aiken etc. so why not start legging up with some showjumping? Sspecially if the rider is there anyway showing showjumpers (which I am guessing MLM might be)? Seems like a decent plan to me.

    I won't comment on the faults because I haven't seen the rounds, but the plan of showing the horse there seems logical to me.
    ~Veronica
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  4. #24
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    Another thing that might be in play on the Jumper course is harder than the eventing SJ concept is that eventing--IIRC--has a rule that something like only 50% of the jumps can be set to maximum. I don't think jumpers have the same restrictions. So jumping more fences at what we would consider maximum height along with greater technical difficulties.


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  5. #25
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    I see no issue with speculation by the general populace about a well known horse.

    As a H/J rider, I would guess that the technicality of the courses at WEF may be more than Mr. M is used to in the SJ phase. My understanding is that a typical SJ course in eventing allows for nearly half the jumps to be below maximum height and that the SJ test was originally a means of showing that after the rigors of the cross country that a horse was sound enough to come back and jump the next day. It was never about "making them a show jumper."

    Having not seen any of his trips I can't say what kind of courses they were but it appears that about 15% are having some sort of rails/faults. If Mr. M is a bit fresh since running his last event, he might be less settled and thus pulling rails. It's possible that the course designer has a penchant for some characteristic that Mr M doesn't care for or handle his very best. It's also possible that since it appears that he's heading back to the eventing side that this is being treated as a means to keep him fit and jumping, and as a means to an end, not the ultimate goal for 2013.
    F O.B
    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique



  6. #26
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    Didn't KOC and MLM both ride at WEF in the jumpers last year as a warm up/training type scenario? Not sure if KOC rode him or if she did at a lower height. And 12 or 17 for a non pure jumper horse, in a new harder environment with a new rider doesn't seem like such bad scores. Especially at WEF where the courses may be set to max height and difficulty.


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  7. #27
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    What others have said- straight show jumping tracks are going to be significantly more technical and much more built out/up than eventing show jumping tracks. Any issues with adjustability, responsiveness or carefulness are going to be magnified. I expect he'll get better results as each week goes by.


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  8. #28
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    Sports fans get to talk about their sport. All the time. Don't panic - it's ok to talk about horses, riders and competition results. We do it a lot here.
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com


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  9. #29
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    Normally KOC warms up at Rocking Horse in FL and she is missed! anyone know when she will be back in action or an update on how she is doing?



  10. #30
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    Given KOC's fractures, I would bet it will be well to a year before she can try to come back. Burst fractures commonly result in neurological deficit that continues to degrade. The spine is so unstable and the roots in the area so exposed that I bet her recovery is getting more and more conservative in order to try to get the best outcome.


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  11. #31
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    You know, I get pretty frustrated with people who THINK they know an eventing rule but can't be bothered to look it up before posting.

    In fact the Eventing rule is the complete OPPOSITE of what you "recall". At Training and above
    at least one third of the obstacles shall be of maximum height,
    This is less stingent than the Jumper requirement of "at least 60%", but an Eventing course typically has all but the first fence set at maximum height, with a couple over height (up to 2").

    Furthermore, in Eventing Show Jumping, spreads can be 10" greater than height (compared with 6" for Jumpers),and any fences can be up to 2" higher thatn the specified height.

    I completely agree that straight Jumper courses can be much more technically challenging than "equivalent" Eventing SJ courses.

    But it isn't becaue of the height (and spread) specs in the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by subk View Post
    Another thing that might be in play on the Jumper course is harder than the eventing SJ concept is that eventing--IIRC--has a rule that something like only 50% of the jumps can be set to maximum. I don't think jumpers have the same restrictions. So jumping more fences at what we would consider maximum height along with greater technical difficulties.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    ...
    My understanding is that a typical SJ course in eventing allows for nearly half the jumps to be below maximum height
    You COULD technically have half of the jumps below height in Eventing Show Jumping. But that isn't how the courses are actually built. Usually all but the first jump are at full height.

    and that the SJ test was originally a means of showing that after the rigors of the cross country that a horse was sound enough to come back and jump the next day. It was never about "making them a show jumper."
    Originally, yes, but not any more. The rulebook says
    This test is similar to an ordinary show jumping competition, but without any attempt to find a ‘winner’ of this test on its own. Its main objective is to prove that, the horse and rider are well trained in the specialist discipline of show jumping.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  13. #33
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    Re: the show jumping test:

    Thanks Janet, I've been pointing that out for about five years now. It was definitely changed before the 2009 Richard Jefferies seminar at Frying Pan Park, because he mentioned it in the opening remarks and that it had been changed for several years then.
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com



  14. #34
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    It's WEF. Suffice to say it's more technical, greater use of flat cups, more jumps set to max specs (and I swear they always look bigger there and I thought that was my weenie ammy self, until a HOTY rider mentioned it). WEF asks more questions than even courses at other AA shows, with the possible exception of indoors, and from what I've seen, most A or FEI rated jumper classes are significantly more technical than most eventing sj (as they should be - these horses only have one job). But when show jumper riders get to WEF, they know it's going to be more difficult there than just about any place else in this country.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bastile View Post
    how is Karen doing?
    She's getting there. Boyfriend's dad is her cousin - we got the news when she ended up in the hospital over dinner last Oct.

    Last update we had was that she wanted to go as carefully as possible but she's been itching to ride.


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilary View Post
    So here's my armchair opinion - MLM (or whatever her name is now?) has taken an event horse, and asks him to do harder jumper courses and is riding him like she would any jumper - because that's her specialty. I am not at all surprise he's struggling a bit. And he's competing against jumpers who only do this.

    She's probably asking him to do things in a way he is not so used to. Watching the videos of him with Karen it looked like he often said "hey, lady, I know what I'm doing will you just let me?" Which you kind of want a bit of on XC, but not so much in SJ.

    I hope it improves him - but she's probably really upped the game for him so the first results may not be all that great.
    He had 1 time fault today so I think he is figuring it out. I think the experience of jumping technical 1.30m tracks would only help his show jumping phase at events


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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlamDunk View Post
    He had 1 time fault today so I think he is figuring it out. I think the experience of jumping technical 1.30m tracks would only help his show jumping phase at events
    This may be true, but he hardly needs to improve his showjumping, since he almost always goes clear over 4* tracks. He was clear at both Rolex and the Olympics last year.

    He's not young; and while I can understand wanting to keep him in work if he's for sale, I'm not sure that wasting his lifetime allotment of jumps doing WEF show jumping is the best option for an older world class event horse.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    He's not young; and while I can understand wanting to keep him in work if he's for sale, I'm not sure that wasting his lifetime allotment of jumps doing WEF show jumping is the best option for an older world class event horse.
    I dare say the O'Connors, in spite of your very vocal disdain for them, have a better idea of the program that will work to keep a world class event horse going well than you do.


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by wanderlust View Post
    I dare say the O'Connors, in spite of your very vocal disdain for them, have a better idea of the program that will work to keep a world class event horse going well than you do.
    Not only that, but I'm pretty sure that KOC has indicated that she might want to play around in the pure show jumping ring going forward. Not sure if her injury will affect that, but this foray might not be about eventing at all.


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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by wanderlust View Post
    I dare say the O'Connors, in spite of your very vocal disdain for them, have a better idea of the program that will work to keep a world class event horse going well than you do.
    Don't know why you question my regard for the O'Connors as horsemen. My "disdain" is over apparent insensitivity to conflicts of interest where money and power are concerned.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



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