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  1. #1
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    Default Colonic Acidosis/Dysbiosis

    Anyone have a horse with that GI issue??? My 5 year old OTTB has it, diagnosed by Cornell, and the recommended "treatment" is to reset the gut by doing frequent tubings of a healthy horse's manure. Treatment day is next Saturday and I'm curious to see if this is going to work...
    Kristen

    Kiwayu & Figiso Pictures:
    http://community.webshots.com/user/kiwayu



  2. #2
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    Warren County, NJ
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    Sorry to read.
    Interesting treatment suggestion.
    I've read about 'leaky gut syndrome' in various articles, but never saw that mentioned.

    Was you horse on a high sugar diet? Just curious how this came about it.
    I've not had it, but once was suspicious with one horse of mine, especially when he became interested in other horse's manure -eek-.
    Not all vets are familiar with this problem either. Luckily he seemed to settle and I don't suspect any issues anymore.
    What I read back then was low sugar diet, probiotics and again probiotics as well as herbs to support the liver. And lower quality, less digestible roughage was preferable over highly digestible roughage if the intestines weren't too inflamed or damaged.

    Good luck and let us know how the manure treatment works.
    So how exactly are they tubing the manure, I'm having a hard time visualizing how it's done.

    What symptoms was the horse presenting before you took him to Cornell?
    Thank you for sharing this.



  3. #3
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    Mar. 13, 2013
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    Default

    Kiwayu, this isn't the same horse that you've been having the epic health struggles with, that was your older horse, right? I can't share any personal experience with the specific acidosis condition, but my mare went through years of a huge motley crew of bizarre issues that we never could diagnose and between the stress and the meds, her GI tract was pretty severely messed up. I ended up switching her to a whole food diet after she was having trouble recovering from surgery and just generally looking so poor that I thought we were at the end of the road. She started to heal and improve pretty radically almost immediately, enough that I have never gone back - and feed everyone on my farm whole foods too. In particular feeding chia seeds seemed to have helped her GI tract a great deal.

    Just thought I'd share that in case it helps at all...it was so simple and sure was a LOT less money and effort than the vet bills and meds!! I am by no means pushing the diet, I just wanted to throw that out there since I had never ever heard of it until a former coach told me to look into it.

    Huge jingles to you and your horses....was a year you've had =( Hope it's all uphill from here!!!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
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    LOL...everyone on the farm except myself...I don't eat whole foods - I eat whatever looks edible or can be made edible in 15 min or less when I come in after night check and remember I haven't eaten since 10am. I am sure I'd feel better and be more productive if I ate as well as my horses =) Too bad nobody stresses themselves to feed me!! Ahhh, the plight of the farm girls....


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  5. #5
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    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Minnesota
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    I spoke with my vet about a fecal transplant some time ago, for my mare with chronic cow patty poop. I was told that it's very rarely effective for equines. Because the loose stool didn't seem to cause any problems--it was more an annoyance than anything--I chose to ignore it. I did treat for the usual suspects before speaking with the vet about the fecal transplant.

    Oddly, moving Dove to Minnesota seems to have solved the problem, and she has the best manure I've ever seen from her. Unsure if it's a hay (a lovely fourth cutting alfalfa) or the grass (she's out all day) or the removal of grain from her diet (she was poor on TC Senior & Complete, and SafeChoice Senior. She doesn't need grain with the grass and the alfalfa here.)



  6. #6
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    Jan. 12, 2003
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    New York
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lieslot View Post
    Sorry to read.
    Interesting treatment suggestion.
    I've read about 'leaky gut syndrome' in various articles, but never saw that mentioned.

    Was you horse on a high sugar diet? Just curious how this came about it.
    I've not had it, but once was suspicious with one horse of mine, especially when he became interested in other horse's manure -eek-.
    Not all vets are familiar with this problem either. Luckily he seemed to settle and I don't suspect any issues anymore.
    What I read back then was low sugar diet, probiotics and again probiotics as well as herbs to support the liver. And lower quality, less digestible roughage was preferable over highly digestible roughage if the intestines weren't too inflamed or damaged.

    Good luck and let us know how the manure treatment works.
    So how exactly are they tubing the manure, I'm having a hard time visualizing how it's done.

    What symptoms was the horse presenting before you took him to Cornell?
    Thank you for sharing this.
    This is my young guy, not the one with all the health issues although he's catching up! I'm going to assume he was on a high sugar diet at New Vocations because the instructional sheet he came with said he was eating 12-14 pounds of grain a day. When he arrived he was taken off that and slowly introduced to triple crown senior. The max amount he's been on was 4 pounds daily (four 1 pound meals over the course of the day). Now he gets 1/2 pound daily split into 4 meals so he thinks he's getting food when my old guy eats and he gets all the 2nd cut hay he can eat. He usually finishes about a 40-50 pound bale a day. He's currently getting Platinum performance wellness, platinum balance and platinum L-glutamine supplement. Nothing has changed but Cornell's GI specialist wants him tested for SAIDHS if the fecal transplant doesn't work. Not exactly sure that that is as I could barely find anything on the disorder.
    Kristen

    Kiwayu & Figiso Pictures:
    http://community.webshots.com/user/kiwayu



  7. #7
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    Aug. 9, 2007
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    Default

    There was a great article in the New York Times a while back about this transfer in humans. One guy asked his friend to help him, and the article detailed how it was all done. It worked for the guy who needed the gut flora. Try googling it in the New York Times.

    I hope it works for your horse, OP. With all the issues you've had with your old boy, and now this 5 yrs and your goats, you need for this to help make this horse feel better. Good luck!

    And chia seeds are wonderful. Check out getchia.com on ebay and then ask getchia to match their sales price there. They will.

    And check out Transfer Factor if that company is still in business. I used to use the products they sell for my horses.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    There was a great article in the New York Times a while back about this transfer in humans. One guy asked his friend to help him, and the article detailed how it was all done. It worked for the guy who needed the gut flora. Try googling it in the New York Times.

    I hope it works for your horse, OP. With all the issues you've had with your old boy, and now this 5 yrs and your goats, you need for this to help make this horse feel better. Good luck!

    And chia seeds are wonderful. Check out getchia.com on ebay and then ask getchia to match their sales price there. They will.

    And check out Transfer Factor if that company is still in business. I used to use the products they sell for my horses.
    I didn't find the article with a google search but I'll keep looking. I hope this "treatment" works as I'm hearing mixed reviews. Unfortunately, this isn't the end of our issues. Stifles were xrayed while at Cornell and they need to be injected and possibly ortho surgery depending on the injection outcome.
    Kristen

    Kiwayu & Figiso Pictures:
    http://community.webshots.com/user/kiwayu



  9. #9
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    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Minnesota
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    The various articles about human fecal transplant are exactly why I was so interested in it as a treatment modality for my horse. I was surprised to hear from my vet that it was not usually worthwhile in equine. Kiwi, I hope it works for you.

    There was a good article about it...in Wired, I think? Let me see if I can find it...

    This isn't what I was thinking of, but it's still a good read:

    http://www.wired.com/2013/01/fecal-clinical-trial/

    Ah, I think it was this one:

    http://www.wired.com/2011/12/fecal-transplants-work/



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    The various articles about human fecal transplant are exactly why I was so interested in it as a treatment modality for my horse. I was surprised to hear from my vet that it was not usually worthwhile in equine. Kiwi, I hope it works for you.

    There was a good article about it...in Wired, I think? Let me see if I can find it...

    This isn't what I was thinking of, but it's still a good read:

    http://www.wired.com/2013/01/fecal-clinical-trial/

    Ah, I think it was this one:

    http://www.wired.com/2011/12/fecal-transplants-work/
    It's amazing because while at Cornell, the GI specialist made it sound like tranfaunation would fix all our problems. I guess only Saturday will tell...
    Kristen

    Kiwayu & Figiso Pictures:
    http://community.webshots.com/user/kiwayu



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwayu View Post
    It's amazing because while at Cornell, the GI specialist made it sound like tranfaunation would fix all our problems. I guess only Saturday will tell...
    That sounds fancier than poop transplant.
    I hope this helps your guy, Kiwayu. You deserve a BREAK!
    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.



  12. #12
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    Mar. 13, 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    There was a great article in the New York Times a while back about this transfer in humans. One guy asked his friend to help him, and the article detailed how it was all done. It worked for the guy who needed the gut flora. Try googling it in the New York Times.

    I hope it works for your horse, OP. With all the issues you've had with your old boy, and now this 5 yrs and your goats, you need for this to help make this horse feel better. Good luck!

    And chia seeds are wonderful. Check out getchia.com on ebay and then ask getchia to match their sales price there. They will.

    And check out Transfer Factor if that company is still in business. I used to use the products they sell for my horses.
    Not sure about Transfer Factor, but BioStar EQ sells colostrum, which looks pretty much the same. I've had great success with it. Equinechia.com also has good prices and ships free in the US - they usually run a big sale in later November


    Sending you **MASSIVE** jingles Kiwayu!!!! I can't imagine the stress you've been under... so sorry you're having such a rotten time =(



  13. #13
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    Jun. 30, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwayu View Post
    It's amazing because while at Cornell, the GI specialist made it sound like tranfaunation would fix all our problems. I guess only Saturday will tell...

    Call him back & ask for details of attempts & success rate

    I'd absolutely try Genesis feed with this horse
    (I've observed it used with great success in horses with chronic diarrhea)



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by alto View Post
    Call him back & ask for details of attempts & success rate

    I'd absolutely try Genesis feed with this horse
    (I've observed it used with great success in horses with chronic diarrhea)
    What kind of NSC is in the feed? Specialist wants him on extremely low sugar diet so I pretty much took him off all grain.
    Kristen

    Kiwayu & Figiso Pictures:
    http://community.webshots.com/user/kiwayu



  15. #15
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    Jun. 30, 2009
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    An interesting KER read

    Carbohydrates in Equine Nutrition

    This is an older version of the Genesis site which contains rather more information than the newer site, I'd be inclined to email head office & confirm the NSC, WSC & nutrient analysis.



  16. #16
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    Apr. 1, 2006
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    New England
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    Default

    I have a horse that is prone to acidosis. With my vet's help, we've finally found a way to manage it using a combination of low NSC diet, probiotic, and a hind gut buffer. My understanding is that based on his internal chemistry, high starch generates too much acid in his hind gut which in turn creates an environment that is hostile to the good hind gut flora and allows the not so good hind gut flora to take over....hence the imbalance. Never mind what the acid does to the lining of the colon.

    I have had great success with KER's Equishure and Nutramax Proviable-Eq. Equishure is a hind gut buffer, which as far as I can tell, is some sort of encapsulated time released baking soda that modifies the ph level of the hind gut. Proviable is a LIVE yeast probiotic. One critical factor with both these products is to feed the amount recommended by the manufacturer, feeding less doesn't get the same results. Equishure is dosed by weight, by grain intake, and by forage type (hay or grass pasture). Because my horse is large and is on grass eight hours a day - he needs the max dosage for most of the year. I can cut it back a little in the winter when the grass is gone and he's just eating hay outside. Proviable goes by weight and current conditions. It also comes in a tube format that can be used to jumpstart the rebuilding of gut flora.

    Dietwise, as I mentioned he's on grass during the day for much of the year. If I couldn't manage the acidosis - I might have to limit that, as high fructan levels in the grass can make things worse. He gets a small amount of high fat, low NSC grain, and plain (no molasses) beet pulp, plus a quality multi-vitamin and mineral supplement. And all the hay he wants. His grain and beet pulp are divided into three meals a day (morning, lunch and dinner) to keep the starch load from spiking.

    None of this works overnight. I would say it took a month to six weeks to see enough results to know for sure this was working. It can take a long time to rebuild hind gut flora to normal levels, months actually according to my vet. He's been on this regime for two years now with no signs of acidosis at all.

    One other note, we are super careful with this horse when it comes to certain types of antibiotics based on their effect of GI bacteria. Some have less effect than others, so if there's a choice we opt for the least harmful to gut bacteria. During and for two weeks after any antibiotic treatment, he gets the max dose of equishure, the max tube paste dose of proviable, and we keep bio-sponge on hand and administer it at the first sign of even a slightly loose manure. Ditto, if for some reason, he need an NSAID.

    Good luck. Hope things work out for your horse.



  17. #17
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    Well, tomorrow is the day...hoping this works!!!
    Kristen

    Kiwayu & Figiso Pictures:
    http://community.webshots.com/user/kiwayu


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
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    Jul. 10, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by silversnaffle View Post
    I have a horse that is prone to acidosis. With my vet's help, we've finally found a way to manage it using a combination of low NSC diet, probiotic, and a hind gut buffer. My understanding is that based on his internal chemistry, high starch generates too much acid in his hind gut which in turn creates an environment that is hostile to the good hind gut flora and allows the not so good hind gut flora to take over....hence the imbalance. Never mind what the acid does to the lining of the colon.

    I have had great success with KER's Equishure and Nutramax Proviable-Eq. Equishure is a hind gut buffer, which as far as I can tell, is some sort of encapsulated time released baking soda that modifies the ph level of the hind gut. Proviable is a LIVE yeast probiotic. One critical factor with both these products is to feed the amount recommended by the manufacturer, feeding less doesn't get the same results. Equishure is dosed by weight, by grain intake, and by forage type (hay or grass pasture). Because my horse is large and is on grass eight hours a day - he needs the max dosage for most of the year. I can cut it back a little in the winter when the grass is gone and he's just eating hay outside. Proviable goes by weight and current conditions. It also comes in a tube format that can be used to jumpstart the rebuilding of gut flora.

    Dietwise, as I mentioned he's on grass during the day for much of the year. If I couldn't manage the acidosis - I might have to limit that, as high fructan levels in the grass can make things worse. He gets a small amount of high fat, low NSC grain, and plain (no molasses) beet pulp, plus a quality multi-vitamin and mineral supplement. And all the hay he wants. His grain and beet pulp are divided into three meals a day (morning, lunch and dinner) to keep the starch load from spiking.

    None of this works overnight. I would say it took a month to six weeks to see enough results to know for sure this was working. It can take a long time to rebuild hind gut flora to normal levels, months actually according to my vet. He's been on this regime for two years now with no signs of acidosis at all.

    One other note, we are super careful with this horse when it comes to certain types of antibiotics based on their effect of GI bacteria. Some have less effect than others, so if there's a choice we opt for the least harmful to gut bacteria. During and for two weeks after any antibiotic treatment, he gets the max dose of equishure, the max tube paste dose of proviable, and we keep bio-sponge on hand and administer it at the first sign of even a slightly loose manure. Ditto, if for some reason, he need an NSAID.

    Good luck. Hope things work out for your horse.
    Silversnaffle, I'd be interested to hear how you guys came to the acidosis diagnosis. I have a gelding that is prone to diarrhea and gas issues that I am trying on Equishure right now. He is one who can't handle pasture or much alfalfa; it's almost a guaranteed colic. I have fed Yea-Sacc which looks like the Proviable except more concentrated, as well as a host of probiotics in the past with no improvement noted. I'm hoping the Equishure helps, but so far it has caused increased gassiness and diarrhea. I'm wondering if this does indicate an acidosis issue and the baking soda + acid = carbon dioxide gas, and the pH change has upset the bacterial apple cart in there = diarrhea.
    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.



  19. #19
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    I don't know how you get your horse to eat the Equishure, CD! I tried that with Dove and she was NO WAY, NO HOW. And she eats everything! I wound up mixing it with oil and syringing it into her. Didn't help her diarrhea at all.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    I don't know how you get your horse to eat the Equishure, CD! I tried that with Dove and she was NO WAY, NO HOW. And she eats everything! I wound up mixing it with oil and syringing it into her. Didn't help her diarrhea at all.
    He's a pig.

    I was all prepared to have to add oil to the feed so it was well-mixed to make sure he cleaned it up and that was totally unnecessary because he licks and slurps his feed tub clean until every bit of powder is gone. It's lovely. He only gets 1 scoop (30g) twice a day, which helps because he doesn't get a ton of grain.

    I'm also trying it for another gelding who is a bit pickier and has to get 100g a day and I had to start lower with him because he has super-equine sifting skills, even with oil and mixing. Right now he's eating almost all of it, and just leaves a small bit of it in his feed crumbs (he's not a tub-licker in the best of times).

    The first gelding has had gas issues for the nearly 20 years I have had him and this is about the only thing I haven't tried for him yet, so I'm hopeful but not overly optimistic. Planning to give it 2 months.
    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.



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