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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2001
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    Florida
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    So what is the history on this horse? An 8 yr old who has stood around for how long? He was acquired because of ??? These are things that can be of significance.

    It sounds like to me that a) the horse has more calories going in than being exerted. b) has no outlet to exert extra calories via a regular schedule and c) might not be in hands experienced enough to deal with what he *appears* to be.
    It unfair feed a horse like he's in consistent work, work him hard inconsistently, with little turnout and expect him to be a solid citizen. IF you don't have time b/c of the weather, whatever, let him be until you have time. Consistency is what is needed, not some calming supplement.
    "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."



  2. #102
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    Jan. 6, 2008
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    Area II, the Blue Ridge Mountains
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    I agree with RAyers and BFNE. Lunging is a skill set and there is no way a horse should be dragging you around. It is all about timing, and basic positive reinforcement with some corrections, and knowing how and where to stand and move ones feet. One must be quick, and have the intuitive knack to time it all, along with a calm and firm demeanor.

    I have worked with some pretty "rank" horses (who were that way due to poor training), and some huge ones as well. I've never even considered using a lip chain on the lunge. That will instill fear which leads to flight, and could end up seriously damaging both the horse and the trainer. And in all my years, I don't think any of those horses were "rank" after some sessions. Yes, I have had "come to Jesus" sessions with horses. But these have occurred in hand and not at the end of a lunge line.

    Hopefully, you will take all of the above to heart and use it as a learning experience. I don't think I've said anything that adds to the above comments.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Mar. 6, 2002
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    Oregon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponygirl View Post
    So what is the history on this horse? An 8 yr old who has stood around for how long? He was acquired because of ??? These are things that can be of significance.
    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    This is that SAME horse? Oy vey.
    Yes, it's the same horse. The same one that also had some lameness/NQR issues, the same one that wouldn't sell and has an old bow, by my recollection, and is an OTTB?

    I'm a year younger than the OP, and she and I have talked quite a bit via PM. She seems like a nice person and appeared to be having some success between last summer and now with her other horse, though I don't exactly remember how she got into working this one, but I do remember her asking if I thought he might be worth taking since the owner had offered her to him. I said no, for the record, based on the history and the information given. Especially these days, there are too many nice, cheap, SOUND young horses out there if you want a project.

    As a teenaged working student, my trainer would have beaten me bloody with my own lip chain had I ever dreamt of putting it on a horse on the lunge line. I am grateful for the education she gave me, and now even moreso. It does not sound like the OP's trainer is really a suitable mentor.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what
    lies with in us. - Emerson


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2010
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    Area 1, Connecticut
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    707

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    The way I see it you have a few options:

    Option 1 (and my most recommended): Find a new barn/trainer. Any trainer that resorts to force like lunging with a lip chain and blames the horse for the holes in his training is not worth your time and effort. It is damaging your horses and it is ruining your horsemanship. Just because someone who calls themself a 'trainer' does something with their horse does not mean you should too without thinking of the consequences. Please close your eyes and visualize a loose horse with a lip chain stepping on the line mid gallop. Not a pretty picture is it? Please, for the sake of your horses, go somewhere else.

    Option 2: Play around with the variables and make it work. You say you like his feed and don't want to change it (or are just changing it minimally (i.e. - 5lbs to 4bs)) because its worked in the past. I am a firm believer in "don't fix it if it ain't broke" but in this case, it is broke. You're having a problem, a feed change may or may not fix it, why not give it a shot? He's not competing, he's not in heavy work, so even if he does start to drop its not a huge deal. You can just switch it back. I know your turnout situation is tough but that is something that needs to be played with. Or at least handwalking, or free schooling in the arena or round pen, or a quick 20 minute hack around the perimeter of the property on a daily basis. Working student or not, your horse needs to come first. Period.

    Option #3: Change your training tactics. Just out of curiosity, what bit are you riding him in? You don't really say that he bucks or rears or spooks, you mostly complain about his head flipping. Some horses are super sensitive to the type of bit. My horse is one of them. He goes in a french link boucher with a lozenge joint. I wanted another bit for my second bridle so bought a french link boucher with a regular link because it was cheaper and he. was. awful. So sometimes a simple bit swith can help. You need to develop some patience. He's young, green, and only been under saddle for nine months. Not a lot of time. He needs time to understand what you're asking and develop the muscles to do it. Any time he acts up, go back to something simpler. There is always a simpler step. All I would expect from a horse with that amount of training is to accept the leg, seat, and hand, be able to travel in a relatively straight line, properly bend around a 15m circle, and maybe leg yield at the walk and trot. He's not accepting your aids it seems, so you need to change something. You cannot do the same thing every ride and expect a different outcome.

    Option #4: Sell the horse. I know you don't want to hear that but if you are as reluctant as you seem to change his grain, demand more turnout, work him out of the ring, not use a lip chain as a general training tool, etc., etc. then you need to do what's best for the horse. If you're not going to change anything about what you're doing right now, the best thing for that horse is to go somewhere else.

    A couple parting notes:
    -You can't dominate a horse. You cannot make them listen to you by making them fear you.
    -You need to gain your horse's respect. You need to be the person he looks to. You need to be the boss, but not through force. That never works.
    Blog: http://movingonupeventing.blogspot.com/

    Don't believe the hype.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Jan. 3, 2013
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    362

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    I love this too some horses are made to jump. My guy is coming back from an injury and there is no way he can actually jump right now but if I ride him in the jumping ring he is so much happier than in the two other rings with no jumps. Literally just riding him in the presence of jumps helps his mindset. I also put down a single cavaletti maybe 6 inches off the ground and trot it a bunch. He will "jump" it most of the time. Because it helps him focus and enjoy himself I don't mind I let him do what he wants.

    I do want to say if you want to keep this horse and have him be happy you have to be willing to make some changes. Listen to all of the advice that has been given and try some of it. Also do not ever use a lip chain when lungeing that is just nuts and asking for a huge vet bill and seriously messed up horse. If you aren't experienced enough to lunge without him pulling away and you have a round pen then use it. Get a basic round penning dvd and give it a try.

    Quote Originally Posted by PNWjumper View Post
    I love this

    My TB was being a royal jackass tonight when I pulled him out at dusk in the rain (how DARE I?!) after 3 days off. Instead of trotting for 15 minutes and cantering for 10 to warm up, we squealed for 15 minutes and crow-hopped for 10. I had a bunch of 1.40m jumps set up from our last jumping session and I said screw it and pointed him at one of the jumps. He was surprised to say the least, but I've never had him settle down quicker! After 3 or 4 big jumps we went back to flatwork and he was settled and focused and loose and just happy in general.

    So I give a big thumbs up to RAyer's advice
    Last edited by stargzng386; Jan. 29, 2013 at 03:44 PM.



  6. #106
    Join Date
    Jul. 25, 2003
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    Boston Area
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    It seems there is a lot more to this horse/story that first met the eye. When you bring a horse back into work and get them fit and back up to a good weight, you sometimes end up with something different than you expected.
    Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
    EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Nov. 16, 2000
    Location
    Concord, NH
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    4,906

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    Have you tried beet pulp as part of his feed? It can add/keep weight and I have never found it makes them silly. Eliminate the calf manna. NOW. It was popular in about 1978 and we've made a lot of progress in understanding horse nutrition since then. Calves need a lot of protein to grow. Adult horses? Not so much.

    It is 25% protien and 3% fat. Please try cutting his grain to a handful for 3 days and see what happens. Build back from there with a high fat, medium protein grain. (legacy is excellent) He probably cannot sustain his weight with no grain, but you will get an answer as to whether the concentrated feeds are contributing to his behavior issue. If he is in his stall 20 hours a day (3 hours of turnout and 1 hour of work) he is not in "hard work" as the feed labels indicate.

    And my anecdote:
    I had a TB who had to gallop regularly or he could. not. work. The fitter (more galloping) he got (which he didn't even need until Prelim) the better he behaved overall, because he got out and got to run every 4 days. No running? Bad horsie. And he lived out 24/7.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2007
    Location
    San Jose, Ca
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    My 5 year old is very calm and sensible when managed correctly (lots of turn out, daily exercise, hay based diet with ration balancer and rice bran).

    Stick her in a stall and feed her Sr. feed? Psycho horse! Can barely lead her type of crazy .

    New barn (I am in CA as well) does not have 12 hour a day, 15 acre group turn out like she is used to. Instead she is in a small paddock (36 x 50) – therefore I make sure that I get her turned out every day (one acre grass paddock – time limited) and that she gets exercised EVERY day – ridden out as much as possible (2-3 times a week)– and galloped a few times a week.

    If I do not get her out on the trails – she gets pretty grumpy ( I don’t blame her, what horse likes to live in a box and then come out to spin circles an hour a day!)

    Like another poster said, the galloping really helps. After she can blow off her steam I have a quiet horse again.

    I am from CA – I have done the working student thing, I do understand that, but bad footing, limited turn out, no trails, no hills – just does not sound like a very easy place to manage a horse properly, and doesn’t sound like the kind of place to make for happy mellow horses. When I was with a trainer at a barn without trails – she hooked up the big ol’ 10 horse trailer once a week, and we headed to the county park and did hill work. We were eventers, our horses HAD TO GET OUT of the arena.
    Last edited by Appsolute; Jan. 29, 2013 at 07:58 PM.



  9. #109
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2007
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    Heaven on Earth--Sonoma County, CA
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    1,475

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    There comes a time as horsemen when we must objectively observe our situation and make some hard decisions. Not every situation, owner, or trainer is right for every horse. That is simply a fact, and has no judgement or emotion attached to it. I've owned the horse that I had to pay to board out even though I owned my own lovely farmette because he went absolutely bonkers on a small quiet farm. He needed the hustle and bustle of a big facility to feel secure.

    Your horse is saying to you as clearly as possible that this situation is not working for him. So you need to figure out how to find a situation that will work for this horse, whether with you, or without you.

    There are plenty of people who live in SoCal, with the same facility challenges you expereince, who have a system for dealing with OTTB's. I would recommend finding one of them and seeing what they do. Off the top of my head, I known many of them use some combination of specific feeding regimens, use of items like walkers, multiple rides a day, field trips off site, etc. It is a LOT of work. And a total PITA. But if you want to live in LA and have an OTTB and be in training for sport, it's a labor intensive situation, and that's all there is to it.

    Some horses do just fine in the living situation you describe. But your horse is letting you know that it doesn't work for him. So the fact that most of them are fine is unimportant. YOUR horse needs something else. If you don't find a way to give it to him, things are going to get worse. That is also a fact.

    I absolutely believe that you are trying to do right by this horse, so understand that I am not judging you or being harsh or feel any negative emotion towards you. But, not all horses work in all situations, and when that happens we have a choice to make. Something has to change. It's up to you to decide what.

    My place is pretty awesome for horses if I do say so myself--60+ acres, large grass pastures, most horses out 24/7, access to trails, etc. 99% of horses come here, take a deep breath, and are as happy and relaxed as they've ever been in their lives. But even I had one last year that for whatever reason was just miserable here. I don't know why, and embarrassingly, she belonged to a friend, but for whatever reason, she just never settled here. I tried everything I could think of to help her settle. But ultimately, we all decided it was better to let her go back to a facility where she'd been happy in the past. And sure enough, she's much happier that when she was with me. I tell you this in the hopes that you will understand--again--that I'm not saying to dump your facility or your horse because I'm a big meanie, or because I think you suck, but because when we bring horse's into our lives we must accept that they are individuals with individual needs. And if we can't provide for those needs, for whatever reason, then as horseman we must do what's best for the horses, even if it means that not being with us.
    Phoenix Farm ~ Breeding-Training-Sales
    Eventing, Dressage, Young Horses
    www.phoenixsporthorses.com
    Check out my new blog: http://califcountrymom.blogspot.com


    7 members found this post helpful.

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
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    West Coast of Michigan
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    [I've owned the horse that I had to pay to board out even though I owned my own lovely farmette because he went absolutely bonkers on a small quiet farm. He needed the hustle and bustle of a big facility to feel secure.
    I own one of those right now. The quiet country life does NOT suit him at all. Will I try again at some point? Sure. But right now I'm grateful for the options I have. I hope the OP can find some options for herself and her horses, too.
    Click here before you buy.



  11. #111
    Join Date
    Sep. 11, 2011
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    Area VI
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    1,735

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    This is the last time I'm posting on this thread. Don't worry, I got the message(s). Come looking for help, find it, admit it, get flamed. Rinse, repeat.

    My trainer does NOT routinely lunge her horse in a lip chain. It was a one-time, last ditch effort to get the horse to stop pulling the same shit. Her horse, and mine, know damn well how to lunge. She does NOT refer to her horse as Spawn of Satan...*I* do, because that is how he has been acting recently. There was a thread a couple weeks ago about the horrible 4's, or something similar, and he fits that description to a 'T'. We suspect he and my horse (the free reject who I was advised not to take, yet have gotten him sound, healthy, and many compliments at a local schooling show) are suddenly realizing just HOW big and powerful they have become, as both have recently gained weight and increased their work load. She does NOT have several misbehaving animals on her property; she has her horse who will throw a temper tantrum when things don't go his way (never seen or heard of THAT before on these boards), and my horse, who has acted like a jackass for only the last few rides. Handwalking and ponying him today, he was fantastic. The facility is the cleanest in the area by far, and the best maintained. The footing is shitty because it rained, nonstop, Fri-Sun. Not her fault that the roads are bad, since she is not the road commissioner.

    If you want to throw me under the bus, flame me, etc (which has already happened) feel free. But don't drag my trainer into this. She is one of the best in the area in multiple disciplines, and if you think lunging ONE horse ONE time in a lip change is horrible, then head to the farm a few miles over and watch a horse get whipped so badly you can hear the whoosh in the air before you see the horse.

    I think what I mostly learned from this thread is that when someone admits to needing help, and trying to find it, and they try to give more information/insight to further explain their situation, they just get flamed more and more. Thanks for that.



  12. #112
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2006
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    1,909

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    Sorry you feel that way. Or we are trying to help you and your horses. Why do you get so angry and defensive when you ask for advice?

    IMO you are trying really hard with horses who may or may not be up to the task. I am not saying write anyone off but you seem to have plenty of issues with the other horse too. I so get it... my budget has always been green or difficult or both. It gets so stressful and just when you think you got somewhere you go back a few steps. But don't get angry at us, or your horses. Acknowledge your frustration for what it is and be as objective as possible, it is how you learn.

    Always use your kindest option, you are building a partnership. In this instance your horse is like a toddler on pixie sticks. He was rude but he was excited. Remember their intention before you get angry and aggressive to them.

    We all know you care about your horses and want the best for them, but you need to exhaust your options to fix your problem or you haven't a hope at getting anywhere training wise.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #113
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    Feb. 4, 2006
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    2,954

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    Quote Originally Posted by runNjump86 View Post
    This is the last time I'm posting on this thread. Don't worry, I got the message(s). Come looking for help, find it, admit it, get flamed. Rinse, repeat.

    My trainer does NOT routinely lunge her horse in a lip chain. It was a one-time, last ditch effort to get the horse to stop pulling the same shit. Her horse, and mine, know damn well how to lunge. She does NOT refer to her horse as Spawn of Satan...*I* do, because that is how he has been acting recently. There was a thread a couple weeks ago about the horrible 4's, or something similar, and he fits that description to a 'T'. We suspect he and my horse (the free reject who I was advised not to take, yet have gotten him sound, healthy, and many compliments at a local schooling show) are suddenly realizing just HOW big and powerful they have become, as both have recently gained weight and increased their work load. She does NOT have several misbehaving animals on her property; she has her horse who will throw a temper tantrum when things don't go his way (never seen or heard of THAT before on these boards), and my horse, who has acted like a jackass for only the last few rides. Handwalking and ponying him today, he was fantastic. The facility is the cleanest in the area by far, and the best maintained. The footing is shitty because it rained, nonstop, Fri-Sun. Not her fault that the roads are bad, since she is not the road commissioner.

    If you want to throw me under the bus, flame me, etc (which has already happened) feel free. But don't drag my trainer into this. She is one of the best in the area in multiple disciplines, and if you think lunging ONE horse ONE time in a lip change is horrible, then head to the farm a few miles over and watch a horse get whipped so badly you can hear the whoosh in the air before you see the horse.

    I think what I mostly learned from this thread is that when someone admits to needing help, and trying to find it, and they try to give more information/insight to further explain their situation, they just get flamed more and more. Thanks for that.
    Nah, what you should have learned is - that if everyone thinks longing in a lipchain is a bad idea....IT PROBABLY IS. But you didn't, so.....good luck with that...


    9 members found this post helpful.

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Jan. 3, 2013
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    362

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    The problem with asking for opinions is that you are going to get them. You need to be prepared that you may not like all of those opinions. You can't take them as a personal stab at you everyone who responded gave you what you asked for...their opinion. It just seems to me that you have a lot of growing up to do, both in your approach to training your horse and how you handle advice.

    I would never use a lip chain because it's a 1000 lb animal. I can't "force" him/her to do what I want. If he's not able to lunge correctly one day and is full of piss and vinegar I would let him run it out in a roundpen instead of trying to use force. If he understands lungeing but is unable to do so one day because he is mentally unable to focus you aren't going to untrain his ability to lunge by choosing something different to work on that day. Training a horse is all about your bond with that horse and I personally wouldn't want to affect that bond and trust by resorting to force. Again this is my personal opinion you can take it or leave it.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Sep. 2, 2008
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    Upperville
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    You have to look honestly at this thread, and this situation, and realize that if everyone is telling you something, they're probably not all wrong.

    This isn't a witch hunt. All of these responders didn't get together and decide to have a little fun "flaming" you. Rather, you came on here and asked a question. You got a lot of good advice. Instead of coming back and appreciating that, you proceeded to explain why everyone was wrong and you weren't going to take any of that advice, but please keep the ideas coming. What you meant was "I don't want to make any of those changes so someone please tell me to try a supplement since that's what I plan to do anyway because it's so much easier."

    So of course, you continued to get the same advice, or the advice to possibly find the horse a more conducive environment. How is that throwing you under the bus? You actually explained yourself that you had no plans to change any of the things that posters suggested. If you have a horse who is clearly not happy in his environment, and you don't make any changes, you're not magically going to get a happy horse.

    What I don't think you realize is that people sat down, took the time to read your question and write out thoughtful and helpful answers. It was YOU who came back and accused people of flaming you and being mean to you.

    Moral of the story, if you don't want honesty and straightforward opinions, don't ask questions on COTH.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #116
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    Jan. 6, 2008
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    Area II, the Blue Ridge Mountains
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    Oh my. OP, I think we have all expressed our opinions and offered advice, and tried to do right by you and your horse. I have learned a lot from what others have posted here. I realize that some of it may have sounded harsh, and it is so unfortunate that you haven't really taken to heart the ideas, opinions, and experience of this thread. IMHO, it is a goldmine. It would be great if you could take a couple of steps back and then go back to what is posted and consider the wisdom of these posts. Maybe your trainer did not deserve the criticism she received. I don't know... I don't know her... I don't know you...

    And that is the point. We don't know either of you so the reactions you've read are reactions to what you have posted, and not to you personally... please try to consider this. It may help to do so, if you are willing to take those two steps back and reconsider all the advice and viewpoints expressed here...


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #117
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    Jan. 6, 2008
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    What she said... ---->

    Quote Originally Posted by ellemayo View Post
    You have to look honestly at this thread, and this situation, and realize that if everyone is telling you something, they're probably not all wrong.

    This isn't a witch hunt. All of these responders didn't get together and decide to have a little fun "flaming" you. Rather, you came on here and asked a question. You got a lot of good advice. Instead of coming back and appreciating that, you proceeded to explain why everyone was wrong and you weren't going to take any of that advice, but please keep the ideas coming. What you meant was "I don't want to make any of those changes so someone please tell me to try a supplement since that's what I plan to do anyway because it's so much easier."

    So of course, you continued to get the same advice, or the advice to possibly find the horse a more conducive environment. How is that throwing you under the bus? You actually explained yourself that you had no plans to change any of the things that posters suggested. If you have a horse who is clearly not happy in his environment, and you don't make any changes, you're not magically going to get a happy horse.

    What I don't think you realize is that people sat down, took the time to read your question and write out thoughtful and helpful answers. It was YOU who came back and accused people of flaming you and being mean to you.

    Moral of the story, if you don't want honesty and straightforward opinions, don't ask questions on COTH.



  18. #118
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    Jul. 13, 2011
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    East Longmeadow, MA
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    OP's attitude might be understood if one reads her thread in the Menagerie titled "Kitty tolerance wearing thin . . ."
    What's wrong with you?? Your cheese done slid off its cracker?!?!



  19. #119
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    Dec. 12, 2004
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    Massachusetts
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    Quote Originally Posted by oliverreed View Post
    OP's attitude might be understood if one reads her thread in the Menagerie titled "Kitty tolerance wearing thin . . ."
    I was actually just going to say:

    Since, OP, you aren't posting here anymore, here goes:

    A quick browse through your posting history shows an alarming lack of empathy, compassion, and flexibility for ALL the animals in your life.

    For this horse in particular, you have not gotten a vet or a saddle fitter out because "what's the point, he's not my horse?" The point is that some of his bad behavior could very well be from pain issues, and you owe it to him to figure out if that's the case, simply because he is in your care.

    The small animals in your care (the cat that you got declawed, who developed the incredibly standard litter box issues afterwards, due to the pain of bones being amputated, who you were then going to chuck outside, or the dog with skin issues who you wouldn't take to the vet because "lol, guess I'll just have a dog with bald legs!!") receive a similar lack of empathy. In all of your threads (including this one) bemoaning some issue with your animals, you get very reasonable, helpful responses, which you then proceed to ignore because they weren't the answers you were looking for.

    It's sad.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  20. #120
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    Jul. 25, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by oliverreed View Post
    OP's attitude might be understood if one reads her thread in the Menagerie titled "Kitty tolerance wearing thin . . ."
    I lost tolerance when I read that her other horse had "well deserved" spur marks. Sigh.
    Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
    EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.


    3 members found this post helpful.

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